http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...1,7190295.story Seems positive that even if we can't resign him, we can S&T him at the worst. But cpawfan reckons that will be botched. An interesting note in there is that Okafor and Bobcats talks broke down. MikeDC has a point, Butler and Howard are all star caliber players and are better than Deng. Even if at the time they were under market value deals. Logically shouldn't the fact that so many similar yet better players take those deals mean that they are the new market rate? The article is a bit positive in that both sides are closer to a shorter term deal.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dtay @ Jul 21 2008, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...1,7190295.story Seems positive that even if we can't resign him, we can S&T him at the worst. But cpawfan reckons that will be botched. An interesting note in there is that Okafor and Bobcats talks broke down. MikeDC has a point, Butler and Howard are all star caliber players and are better than Deng. Even if at the time they were under market value deals. Logically shouldn't the fact that so many similar yet better players take those deals mean that they are the new market rate? The article is a bit positive in that both sides are closer to a shorter term deal.</div> I don't really see what a short term deal gets us if it's 3 years. I'd rather make it 2 years and have cap room in 2010. I don't buy the "undervalued" vs. "overvalued" argument. Guys sign the deals that they sign, and then it works out or it doesn't. You don't know if they're undervalued or overvalued until a couple years down the road. So you sign up Caron Butler for $9M and he works out. You sign up Boris Diaw for $9M and it doesn't. You're taking a risk. Cpaw's implication seems to be that we should simply pay Deng as much as he wants and hope it works out that he's as good as those other guys. But he's not year, and has a lot to prove. He's proven he's good, but not stepped out of the pack. thus, he ought not make more than the middle of the pack. The thing on Okafor is kind of interesting. I'd consider a sign-and-trade for him, possibly even for Deng. We'd still need a scorer, but the guy is seriously underrated. He's a rebounding fool who blocks shots. Put him in our defense and all of our guards will suddenly look better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 22 2008, 08:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't buy the "undervalued" vs. "overvalued" argument. Guys sign the deals that they sign, and then it works out or it doesn't. You don't know if they're undervalued or overvalued until a couple years down the road. So you sign up Caron Butler for $9M and he works out. You sign up Boris Diaw for $9M and it doesn't. You're taking a risk.</div> When you change the terms, you change the meaning. Value is about what they are worth, while market is what teams will pay for their services. Some players get bad advice and they take under-market deals when they sign long term contracts and some others buy into what the GM is selling about staying part of a team. It was very easy to say the day the deal was announced that Prince took an under-market deal. I know this because I did. Both Prince and Rip Hamilton took sweetheart deals to stay with the Pistons. Diaw's deal on the other hand, was above-market from the beginning. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Cpaw's implication seems to be that we should simply pay Deng as much as he wants and hope it works out that he's as good as those other guys.</div> No, that isn't my implication. I'm saying to pay him market value as there are clearly other teams willing to pay what his agent wants. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>But he's not year, and has a lot to prove. He's proven he's good, but not stepped out of the pack. thus, he ought not make more than the middle of the pack.</div> Deng is clearly above the middle of the pack of SFs. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The thing on Okafor is kind of interesting. I'd consider a sign-and-trade for him, possibly even for Deng. We'd still need a scorer, but the guy is seriously underrated. He's a rebounding fool who blocks shots. Put him in our defense and all of our guards will suddenly look better.</div> Okafor is vastly overrated. Somebody on the Bobcats will get rebounds by default. You could put a lot of other players (like Noah) in his role and they would put up big numbers also. You have too much of the grass is always greener approach to Bulls players
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 22 2008, 11:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 22 2008, 08:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't buy the "undervalued" vs. "overvalued" argument. Guys sign the deals that they sign, and then it works out or it doesn't. You don't know if they're undervalued or overvalued until a couple years down the road. So you sign up Caron Butler for $9M and he works out. You sign up Boris Diaw for $9M and it doesn't. You're taking a risk.</div> When you change the terms, you change the meaning. Value is about what they are worth, while market is what teams will pay for their services. Some players get bad advice and they take under-market deals when they sign long term contracts and some others buy into what the GM is selling about staying part of a team. It was very easy to say the day the deal was announced that Prince took an under-market deal. I know this because I did. Both Prince and Rip Hamilton took sweetheart deals to stay with the Pistons. Diaw's deal on the other hand, was above-market from the beginning. </div> You've got a heck of a career ahead of you writing dictionaries. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Cpaw's implication seems to be that we should simply pay Deng as much as he wants and hope it works out that he's as good as those other guys.</div> No, that isn't my implication. I'm saying to pay him market value as there are clearly other teams willing to pay what his agent wants.</div> That's hardly been clear until, possibly, this morning. But I don't think you can point to much saying what he wants, or to much that says other teams are actually willing to pay it. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>But he's not year, and has a lot to prove. He's proven he's good, but not stepped out of the pack. thus, he ought not make more than the middle of the pack.</div> Deng is clearly above the middle of the pack of SFs. </div> The middle of the pack I had pointed out there. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You have too much of the grass is always greener approach to Bulls players</div> Well, what can I say, we don't have Spencer Hawes We also haven't demonstrated much on the court.
The debate is silly, IMO. There's no free market to actually determine what the fair market price for any of the players mentioned actually is. Given the thread you started earlier today, DC, there are teams willing to pay Deng $13M or more in a S&T scenario, but even that isn't his fair market value - it's what works to satisfy BYC and the CBA. From Deng's POV, the $13M or more is desirable, no?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The debate is silly, IMO. There's no free market to actually determine what the fair market price for any of the players mentioned actually is.</div> I agree, but there's still a "market", whether it's free or not. And at the end of the day, you want your players to be paid commesurate with their abilities or you're not going to get very far. That's a goal, not an iron clad rule, of course, but I still don't see any reason to go outside those rates by much. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Given the thread you started earlier today, DC, there are teams willing to pay Deng $13M or more in a S&T scenario, but even that isn't his fair market value - it's what works to satisfy BYC and the CBA. From Deng's POV, the $13M or more is desirable, no?</div> Sure, but it's still, largely a negotiating ploy. The Jazz, Lakers and Pistons can't actually offer him $13M without some help. Even if Deng takes the QO, they can't offer him that next year. The Heat are different because they conceivably can. That's why I said earlier I consider them a pretty legitimate risk. That's a reason to consider upping an offer to Deng. Don't misunderstand me, I agree that there's no such thing as "fair market value". My point is that we should establish Deng's value to ourselves in part by looking at comparable players, based on how much we're hurt if we lose him, and based on what we can expect if we sign him. Much of that is based on how the Bulls run things. If we pay $13M for Deng, we're not going to re-sign Gordon. Now personally I wouldn't have signed Nocioni to his ridiculous deal last season, so this wouldn't be as much of an issue. But given the situation the Bulls have gotten themselves into, and their refusal to pay the tax, that's what I expect. So what would you rather have. Deng at $13M or Gordon at $11M?
Dunno what you mean by "some help." If they're willing to pay Deng $13M and the Bulls not willing, then it's up to Pax to decide to S&T him or watch him sign the QO. It's also up to Deng to be willing to do the "S" but the "T" might net us an expiring deal (or 2...) for Hughes' contract.
The Blazers can have enough cap space next summer by renouncing a few guys like Webster and Frye and they have a clear need at SF. They would be a perfect location for Deng too. They can offer a S&T around those guys and the large expiring contract of Raef. I'm willing to bet that KP has already offered something like that to the Bulls and Pax has turned it down with a counter of he won't trade Deng unless one of Portland's top 3 is in the deal.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 23 2008, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So what would you rather have. Deng at $13M or Gordon at $11M?</div> Separate response to this question. If it's "or" then we may as well let 'em both walk and stink it up while sitting on the cap space until the next Ben Wallace is available to be signed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dunno what you mean by "some help." If they're willing to pay Deng $13M and the Bulls not willing, then it's up to Pax to decide to S&T him or watch him sign the QO. It's also up to Deng to be willing to do the "S" but the "T" might net us an expiring deal (or 2...) for Hughes' contract.</div> I mean willing and able. Suppose Deng takes the QO. The Lakers, Jazz and Pistons won't be able to sign Deng next year even if he's a UFA because they wouldn't have $13M in cap space. The Heat, on the other hand, could. So if I'm Deng, if the Heat are winking and suggesting that I take the QO, I start considering it, although it's still a risk. If the Lakers say I should take the QO and sign with them next year, I don't take it seriously because they couldn't conceivably offer me much. cpaw- If Pritchard called me up to offer me Travis Outlaw for Deng, I'd cut the conversation short by mentioning I'm about to go work out Darius Miles. The Bulls (and any other team) could pretty easily screw them by signing up Miles for at least 10 games and putting him back on the Blazers team salary payroll.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 23 2008, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dunno what you mean by "some help." If they're willing to pay Deng $13M and the Bulls not willing, then it's up to Pax to decide to S&T him or watch him sign the QO. It's also up to Deng to be willing to do the "S" but the "T" might net us an expiring deal (or 2...) for Hughes' contract.</div> I mean willing and able. Suppose Deng takes the QO. The Lakers, Jazz and Pistons won't be able to sign Deng next year even if he's a UFA because they wouldn't have $13M in cap space. The Heat, on the other hand, could. So if I'm Deng, if the Heat are winking and suggesting that I take the QO, I start considering it, although it's still a risk. If the Lakers say I should take the QO and sign with them next year, I don't take it seriously because they couldn't conceivably offer me much. cpaw- If Pritchard called me up to offer me Travis Outlaw for Deng, I'd cut the conversation short by mentioning I'm about to go work out Darius Miles. The Bulls (and any other team) could pretty easily screw them by signing up Miles for at least 10 games and putting him back on the Blazers team salary payroll. </div> My take is those teams aren't suggesting he take the QO, but rather are angling for the S&T scenario I described. Cpawfan's scenario seems interesting, too. Maybe they'd want to S&T for both Deng and Gordon, as both would be amazing fits for them.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 23 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dunno what you mean by "some help." If they're willing to pay Deng $13M and the Bulls not willing, then it's up to Pax to decide to S&T him or watch him sign the QO. It's also up to Deng to be willing to do the "S" but the "T" might net us an expiring deal (or 2...) for Hughes' contract.</div> I mean willing and able. Suppose Deng takes the QO. The Lakers, Jazz and Pistons won't be able to sign Deng next year even if he's a UFA because they wouldn't have $13M in cap space. The Heat, on the other hand, could. So if I'm Deng, if the Heat are winking and suggesting that I take the QO, I start considering it, although it's still a risk. If the Lakers say I should take the QO and sign with them next year, I don't take it seriously because they couldn't conceivably offer me much. cpaw- If Pritchard called me up to offer me Travis Outlaw for Deng, I'd cut the conversation short by mentioning I'm about to go work out Darius Miles. The Bulls (and any other team) could pretty easily screw them by signing up Miles for at least 10 games and putting him back on the Blazers team salary payroll. </div> That 9 million won't be enough to keep them from having enough cap room if they renounce those guys. Also, Miles has to play in 10 games, not just be signed. Additionally, as soon as Miles is on the roster, he has to sit out 10 games for a drug suspension.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 23 2008, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So what would you rather have. Deng at $13M or Gordon at $11M?</div> Separate response to this question. If it's "or" then we may as well let 'em both walk and stink it up while sitting on the cap space until the next Ben Wallace is available to be signed. </div> Well, maybe we dump Kirk Hinrich for nothing and keep Deng and Gordon. Happier now?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 23 2008, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 23 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dunno what you mean by "some help." If they're willing to pay Deng $13M and the Bulls not willing, then it's up to Pax to decide to S&T him or watch him sign the QO. It's also up to Deng to be willing to do the "S" but the "T" might net us an expiring deal (or 2...) for Hughes' contract.</div> I mean willing and able. Suppose Deng takes the QO. The Lakers, Jazz and Pistons won't be able to sign Deng next year even if he's a UFA because they wouldn't have $13M in cap space. The Heat, on the other hand, could. So if I'm Deng, if the Heat are winking and suggesting that I take the QO, I start considering it, although it's still a risk. If the Lakers say I should take the QO and sign with them next year, I don't take it seriously because they couldn't conceivably offer me much. cpaw- If Pritchard called me up to offer me Travis Outlaw for Deng, I'd cut the conversation short by mentioning I'm about to go work out Darius Miles. The Bulls (and any other team) could pretty easily screw them by signing up Miles for at least 10 games and putting him back on the Blazers team salary payroll. </div> That 9 million won't be enough to keep them from having enough cap room if they renounce those guys. Also, Miles has to play in 10 games, not just be signed. Additionally, as soon as Miles is on the roster, he has to sit out 10 games for a drug suspension. </div> It will, however, be enough to put them over the tax threshold this coming season and force them to make hard decisions next season. If I'm the Bulls, I don't see a lot to lose by that if the Blazers need to be sent a message. They simply sign up Miles and play him meaningless minutes in meaningless games.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 23 2008, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dunno what you mean by "some help." If they're willing to pay Deng $13M and the Bulls not willing, then it's up to Pax to decide to S&T him or watch him sign the QO. It's also up to Deng to be willing to do the "S" but the "T" might net us an expiring deal (or 2...) for Hughes' contract.</div> I mean willing and able. Suppose Deng takes the QO. The Lakers, Jazz and Pistons won't be able to sign Deng next year even if he's a UFA because they wouldn't have $13M in cap space. The Heat, on the other hand, could. So if I'm Deng, if the Heat are winking and suggesting that I take the QO, I start considering it, although it's still a risk. If the Lakers say I should take the QO and sign with them next year, I don't take it seriously because they couldn't conceivably offer me much. cpaw- If Pritchard called me up to offer me Travis Outlaw for Deng, I'd cut the conversation short by mentioning I'm about to go work out Darius Miles. The Bulls (and any other team) could pretty easily screw them by signing up Miles for at least 10 games and putting him back on the Blazers team salary payroll. </div> My take is those teams aren't suggesting he take the QO, but rather are angling for the S&T scenario I described. Cpawfan's scenario seems interesting, too. Maybe they'd want to S&T for both Deng and Gordon, as both would be amazing fits for them. </div> Sure they're angling for S&Ts, but they don't have any real leverage to make it work, besides their silvery tongues. Nonetheless, it's becoming pretty clear that the Bulls are gonna have to pay more to keep him because several options are looking very realistic. So they either need to pursue a sign and trade or they need to make an offer comparable to what other teams can and will pay.
Imagine the Heat with Wade, Beasley, and Deng? Ouch. That's a fomidable 1-2-3 punch. Webster was a guy I was interested pre-draft because he brings size and shooting to the 2, something we apparently need. If Deng's price is unreasonable AND we don't want to match it; how about something along the lines of S&T Deng, Hughes for LaFrentz, Webster, filler?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 23 2008, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 23 2008, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC @ Jul 23 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 23 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dunno what you mean by "some help." If they're willing to pay Deng $13M and the Bulls not willing, then it's up to Pax to decide to S&T him or watch him sign the QO. It's also up to Deng to be willing to do the "S" but the "T" might net us an expiring deal (or 2...) for Hughes' contract.</div> I mean willing and able. Suppose Deng takes the QO. The Lakers, Jazz and Pistons won't be able to sign Deng next year even if he's a UFA because they wouldn't have $13M in cap space. The Heat, on the other hand, could. So if I'm Deng, if the Heat are winking and suggesting that I take the QO, I start considering it, although it's still a risk. If the Lakers say I should take the QO and sign with them next year, I don't take it seriously because they couldn't conceivably offer me much. cpaw- If Pritchard called me up to offer me Travis Outlaw for Deng, I'd cut the conversation short by mentioning I'm about to go work out Darius Miles. The Bulls (and any other team) could pretty easily screw them by signing up Miles for at least 10 games and putting him back on the Blazers team salary payroll. </div> That 9 million won't be enough to keep them from having enough cap room if they renounce those guys. Also, Miles has to play in 10 games, not just be signed. Additionally, as soon as Miles is on the roster, he has to sit out 10 games for a drug suspension. </div> It will, however, be enough to put them over the tax threshold this coming season and force them to make hard decisions next season. If I'm the Bulls, I don't see a lot to lose by that if the Blazers need to be sent a message. They simply sign up Miles and play him meaningless minutes in meaningless games. </div> Gosh, making Paul Allen spend a few extra million really sends a message. The decisions really won't be that difficult next summer.
