Official: Warriors Trade Pick for Marcus Williams

Discussion in 'Golden State Warriors' started by AlleyOop, Jul 22, 2008.

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  1. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    I know this is being discussed in the starting PG thread, but here's a separate trade thread.

    Maybe Marc Stein had it wrong? Maybe the Williams GS wanted wasn't Lou Williams, as he reported, but Marcus?

    This is the guy I was hoping the Warriors would've drafted instead of Patrick O'Bryant in 2006. Just from watching the tape I thought he was one of the better prospects in the draft at their #9 slot. He was considered by many scouts to be the best PG in the nation at that time.

    I like the fact that he's a pure PG (at least he was in college) so he'll push CJ Watson for some minutes, hopefully.

    But, if he doesn't, then why get him? A 1st round protected pick(not a top 10) is still an awful lot to gamble on (think that we just got a potential franchise player in Randolph at #14). This isn't just a D-League signing or a 1-year veteran's minimum signing. So hopefully they see something here that warrants the price.

    I think it could work out. The exciting thing is he has the potential to be a very good player, even a long-term starting PG for the Warriors. He's young, and many scouts compared him to Marc Jackson when he came out of college. Long arms -- he's 6'3" with a 6'7" wingspan -- and big -- 205 pounds. He's got good court vision and likes to make the flashy pass, from what I've seen and read.

    When I saw his name come up in the rumors, I was hoping the Warriors would make an offer. I'm glad they did, but I hope h gets a chance to prove himself with Nellie.

    He had some trouble in college with the law. He was involved with some other people in the potential sale of stolen laptops. He owned up to it, was suspended for a semester, served 18 months probation, ordered to do 200 hours community service, then and asked for a 2nd chance:

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/men...-williams_x.htm

    http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/10589616/

    http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/stor...&id=2278440

    I like how he owned up to it and didn't try to defend his actions. He didn't steal the laptops, but a friend gave him two of them and he tried to sell them, later saying "he just wasn't thinking." He served his suspension and was welcomed back to the team, so that's a good way to admit the mistake and put it behind him. Hopefully that helped him build character.

    Here's a good interview with the player he's been compared with (Marc Jackson):

    [video=youtube;bVe24XOnnpI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVe24XOnnpI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVe24XOnnpI[/video]
     
    AlleyOop, Jul 22, 2008
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  2. Legacy

    Legacy Beast

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    As a Nets fan as well, I could tell you that as a starter, Marcus will be a good player for us.
     
    Legacy, Jul 22, 2008
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  3. Doctor Kajita

    Doctor Kajita Active Member

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    Wow, okay. Thanks for posting this. I like the fact that he was mentored by Kidd for a bit. Alright, my expectations have been lifted a little bit more from this trade.
     
    Doctor Kajita, Jul 22, 2008
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  4. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Here's a nice article from some guy on bleacherreport:

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The New York Post blog reports that the Golden State Warriors have acquired point guard Marcus Williams from the New Jersey Nets for a lottery protected first round pick in 2011.

    It's the perfect move for the Warriors as fans are starting to see the makings of a strong team concept in Oakland for the first time in over a decade.

    Williams was drafted by the Nets with the 22nd pick in the first round of the 2006 after falling a bit due to concerns about his conditioning and character. However, what he actually did on the court at the University of Connecticut is what should have Warriors fans excited.

    He showed the ability to score and make plays for others with an outstanding feel for the game to go with top notch ball handling skills. Most importantly, he played with a confidence and toughness that has defined the Warriors' 2008 off-season moves.

    Williams should be a nice fit at point guard for the Warriors as he has the size to guard bigger point guards that Monta Ellis doesn't. And tutelage from Jason Kidd can't exactly hurt a young point guard.

    And although his NBA career has been less than stellar, there are still plenty of reasons for Warriors fans to be encouraged by Williams' potential.

    Williams Produced In Starter Minutes

    Coming out of college, Williams had a ton of potential, especially considering his surprisingly low draft position. ESPN.com's John Hollinger's draft rater showed that based on college statistics, Williams had a projected 3rd year pure point rating of 15.55, which is right about the average. That projection is similar to the projection of other young point guards you might be more familiar with: Mike Conley, Deron Williams, and Rajon Rondo. Those are favorable comparisons for Williams and perhaps demonstrates that with bigger minutes, he could be a very productive point guard

    We often judge a player by his overall statistics, but for a player like Williams, it's also helpful to judge him by when he got consistent minutes and the opportunity to find a rhythm. Williams started in seven games last season for the Nets and showed a lot of promise as an NBA point guard. It's not a huge sample, but it's another example of how the Warriors have stockpiled potential at every position.

    Williams' numbers in his seven starts are solid, but might not immediately impress: 11.1 ppg, 6.3 ast/3.0 tos, 4.0 rebounds, 1.14 steals. However looking deeper into the starter numbers, two statistics stand out: his pure point rating and his assist percentage. While neither looks that impressive as a reserve, he definitely stepped up his game as a starter.

    Pure point rating is a statistic developed by Hollinger to improve on the obviously flawed assist to turnover ratio, which benefits guard who don't commit turnovers because they don't take risks. Pure point rating adjusts for the actual value of assists and subtracts turnovers from that number to estimate the value a player brings to the court as a play maker per minute.

    Williams pure point rating as a starting point guard was 3.89. He averaged 30 minutes per game as a starter so to put this number in perspective, it puts him right in the range of Maurce Williams and Rafer Alston among point guards who played similar minutes. That's not bad for a player who the Warriors intend to bring off the bench to keep the tempo high.

    Another interesting statistic from John Hollinger is his assist ratio, which essentially looks at the percentage of player possessions that end in an assist. Again in starter minutes, his assist ratio was 31.1%, meaning he created an assist for a teammate on almost one third of the time he had the ball in his hands. That number ranks similarly to noted distributors, such as TJ Ford, Jason Williams, Raymond Felton, Chauncey Billups and Kirk Hinrich -- two of which the Warriors were rumored to be interested in.

    Williams' shooting percentages were not that impressive (41% FG as a starter), but he has shown three point range (35% as a reserve, 50% -- 13 of 26 -- as a starter). What we see here is a player that improved his numbers across the board when his minutes increased.

    It's likely that Williams will not see starter minutes any time soon for the Warriors and a more accurate assessment would be of what he did in 20 minutes per game like he played after the all-star break. But looking at three tiers of minutes (16, 20, and 30) we see that his efficiency numbers across the board increase when he gets more minutes. When you consider the type of system the Warriors run and how friendly it is to point guards who can shoot the three and make plays, Williams stands to be an outstanding fit.

    A Small Move With Huge Breakout Potential

    This is a great deal for the Warriors because Williams has room to grow and comes extremely cheap -- since the pick is lottery protected at worst their spending a 15th pick on him and that's about his value anyway. An early look at Williams statistics support his strong potential to have a breakout season if given a bigger role. It's also worth noting that the Nets didn't just throw the guy away because he's bad; they just acquired Keyon Dooling and that probably made Williams expendable behind Devin Harris and Dooling

    But there is also reason for caution -- if rumors of poor conditioning are true, then consistent minutes over a longer period of time will not yield higher production. It's likely those consistent minutes will at least initially be as a backup to Monta Ellis, earning around 20-25 minutes per game. Yet in an uptempo system like the Warriors, Williams' conditioning will be a major factor.

    The Warriors have publicly committed to Ellis playing the point as Don Nelson believes that his greatest potential is as a point guard. Even if Williams develops a starter quality game and the Warriors get tempted to start him at point guard with Ellis at the off guard spot, it's unlikely that he'll crack the starting lineup with veterans Corey Maggette and Stephen Jackson pegged as the starters at the 2 and 3. Nevertheless, this should be a great career move for Williams as he stands to see an increase in minutes as the play maker the Warriors have lacked.</div>
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/39930-w...akout-potential
    I'm liking this move more and more. I didn't consider the fact that NJ had such an anemic offense. It gets me excited to think of a guy with Williams' court vision and you throw him in Nellie's offense where he'll be allowed to do as he pleases and you throw a bunch of offensive weapons around him. Plus he fits the criteria of being a big PG like Alley Oop said at 6'3 with a 6'7 wingspan and over 200 lbs. Conditioning and attitude may be a concern but I like his chances of succeeding with us.
     
    Run BJM, Jul 22, 2008
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  5. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Also here's an article from Steinmentz, who likes the trade:
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Warriors president of basketball operations Chris Mullin pulled off the kind of move on Tuesday that doesn’t cause much of a ripple throughout the NBA.

    He acquired point guard Marcus Williams from the New Jersey Nets for a protected first-round pick. Big deal, right? Well, for the Warriors … yes it is.

    I guess I’ll just come right out and say it: I like this move; I like Marcus Williams.

    I like the kind of point guard Williams is and I think his style fits in well with this team. I also think Williams’ acquisition will help Monta Ellis, whom the Warriors are force-feeding the point guard position.

    Yesterday, the Warriors didn’t have a proven ballhandler/playmaker/decision-maker on their roster. C.J. Watson, you say? I said “proven.”

    They do now. I realize Williams averaged just six points and two assists per game last year but keep in mind he played for the Nets. What do they average: 81 points per game?

    It’s no secret Williams will fare better in the Warriors’ uptempo offense. He’s quick from one end of the floor to the other and he can score and create just enough to keep defenses honest.

    Williams will likely come off the bench most nights for Golden State, although he’ll probably get a handful of starts, too, because coach Don Nelson is given to changing the lineup one game to the next.

    Williams played 16 minutes per game last year for the Nets, which will probably be about what he plays for the Warriors. Williams’ mere presence is a wonderful gift to Ellis, and should lessen the stakes some when it comes to learning the point guard position full-time.

    It is no longer all or nothing for Ellis at the point.

    Getting Williams also means that Ellis is sure to play about half the time at shooting guard, his best position by far and where he is most valuable and effective.

    Williams shot just 38 percent from the field last year, but he also shot 38 percent from 3-point range. That would make him the best shooter from beyond the arc on the Warriors.

    You’ve heard all the point guard names before: Kirk Hinrich, Delonte West, Jannero Pargo, Kyle Lowry, etc. Sure, Hinrich would have been interesting, but the Warriors weren’t going to get him for Al Harrington.

    And as far as the others, I’d rather have Williams because he won’t cost as much (still on rookie deal) and in the Warriors’ system could very well be more effective than any of them.</div>
    http://www.examiner.com/x-441-Golden-State-Warriors-Examiner
     
    Run BJM, Jul 22, 2008
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  6. DynastYWarrioR6

    DynastYWarrioR6 JBB SmurfY

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    Not a busy offseason for you guys at all [​IMG]
     
    DynastYWarrioR6, Jul 22, 2008
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  7. Doctor Kajita

    Doctor Kajita Active Member

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    I actually think the conditioning issue will work in the team's favor. It will give Watson a chance to play behind Monta for a bit. I think Watson deserves to be the backup PG at the beginning of the season from what he has shown in summer league. That being said, the better player on the court is always preferred. I'm happy with the depth we have in the backcourt now. I still feel we're one move away from being a "complete" team both financially and chemistry-wise.

    Harrington still has to be moved, but we shouldn't be in a hurry to.

    It looks like we'll get to see Williams in summer league action. We just played the Nets yesterday and he was starting for them.
     
    Doctor Kajita, Jul 22, 2008
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  8. Doctor Kajita

    Doctor Kajita Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DynastYWarrioR6 @ Jul 22 2008, 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Not a busy offseason for you guys at all [​IMG]</div>

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, this has been one of the most interesting off-seasons I have experienced. I think I've experienced a full spectrum of emotions starting with the Baron Davis opt out.
     
    Doctor Kajita, Jul 22, 2008
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  9. Zhone

    Zhone JBB JustBBall Member

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    Since I don't know much about Marcus, I went over to the Nets forum and the Nets blog and took a peek.

    Not a lot of love there for him! Well, it's split so I guess I won't say it's all horrible.

    Most of it was about his attitude, a little about his poor defense. Some of it was that he just didn't try hard enough or condition well enough. Even more said some stuff about how he runs the offense and funny enough it reminded me of Baron (shooting early on the clock, a bit of ballhogging, trying to make a circus shot in the lane). There were some still taken on his potential, though. But there wasn't anything great to say about his current game, only that he could get better.

    No doubt we traded for a project, but its only a (well) protected first round pick at worst. There's no monetary investment, or even lengthy contract investment. Still, I hope it works out for the better with a new change of scenery.
     
    Zhone, Jul 22, 2008
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  10. syc514

    syc514 Member

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    As a nets fan who watched marcus for two years and followed all the nets news about the players closely, I can say that the biggest problems with Marcus were:

    a. bad conditioning. If you just look at his weight, like a lot of people seem to on this thread, you would think that he's a big point guard who can defend other big pgs and take other pgs down low in the post. He was actually just quite out of shape - thus the weight.
    b. speaking of defending, marcus was easily the worst defensive player on the nets - as an NBA scout once put it, Marcus 'couldn't guard an ATM with a machine gun'. He was a huge liability on defense for us but I don't know how much that would matter on a runandgun style of offense like GS. He could run around like a chicken with his head cut off and that might work out awesome for both marcus and GS.
    c. attitude problems around the coach and in the locker room. With all the young guys we brought in this summer, the rumor was that Marcus had to be shipped so he wouldn't spread his negative attitude wouldn't spread to them as well.

    That said, Marcus oculd very well flourish in a new change of environment and GS kinda gameplan (more of a 'outscoring' 'outgunning' and 'outrunning' mindset than defensive mindset, correct me if i am wrong). at the very least, he can be a usable backup point guard at a position for that GS seems rather thin at now. A lot of nets fans are glad to see him gone but now we really dont have a pure point guard, or rather anyone who can dish assists other than maybe vince. His attitude, conditioning, and being a defensive liability turned the nets off - even though he had some good flashes of potential (albeit inconsistent of course).

    I'd be happy to see marcus do well in the different environment but i have my doubts.
     
    syc514, Jul 22, 2008
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  11. syc514

    syc514 Member

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    he definitely has a decent amount of potential though and would have liked to see us (nets) get a little more for him than what we got. All in all, a pretty low risk gamble for you guys that may turn out to pay dividends given your rather thin depth at the 1 and run and gun style of gameplay. Don't be surprised if it doesn't ultimately pan out though.
     
    syc514, Jul 22, 2008
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  12. Legacy

    Legacy Beast

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    He is 22 years old with lots of potential. Many Nets fans gave up on him because he was fat and lazy. He isn't that fat anymore, and I guess he was lazy because he hates being a backup point guard. First he was a backup to Jason Kidd who mentored him as well, then after he had to be a backup to Devin Harris whom the Nets got from the Kidd deal.

    While Kidd was trade, and Harris was injured, it was Williams' time to shine. He played well and has drawn comparisons to Stephon Marbury (before he turned into a bum).

    I think this was a good trade for both sides and Marcus should do well, if he is the starter. This creates a whole other problem for us. If Marcus Williams was traded to us, he has got to be the starter. But what will happen to Maggs/Jackson? Who will be the starting small forward, or will Nellie start one of them as a power forward? Ellis is the starting shooting guard for sure, and I don't want to see him come of off the bench.
     
    Legacy, Jul 22, 2008
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  13. Doctor Kajita

    Doctor Kajita Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Legacy @ Jul 22 2008, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Marcus Williams was traded to us, he has got to be the starter. But what will happen to Maggs/Jackson? Who will be the starting small forward, or will Nellie start one of them as a power forward? Ellis is the starting shooting guard for sure, and I don't want to see him come of off the bench.</div>

    No, I don't think he has to be the starter nor do I think he should be the starter. I think he will start a bunch of games for us depending on the match-up, but he's going to have to earn that starting spot. He should be fine being the backup or even the 2nd backup for a while until he gets a little more comfortable with the system, team, and coaches.

    I doubt Maggette will see much SG action...he has a better chance of playing PF than SG, but he's probably going to primarily play SF all the time.

    The most typical starting lineup will be the best talent on the team:

    PG: Monta
    SG: Sjax
    SF: Maggette
    PF: Harrington or Wright
    C: Biedrins
     
    Doctor Kajita, Jul 22, 2008
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  14. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    Tattoos, bad attitude, bad defense, we're going to love him.
     
    Custodianrules2, Jul 22, 2008
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  15. Clif25

    Clif25 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Custodianrules2 @ Jul 23 2008, 12:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Tattoos, bad attitude, bad defense, we're going to love him.</div>

    Somebody's got to replace Barnes' departing tattoos from the roster. [​IMG]
     
    Clif25, Jul 22, 2008
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  16. kdub

    kdub Cal's best coming to the Swamp!

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    Marcus will be great running Nellie's "offense", but I'm not sure picking him up equates to wins.

    He's a great passer, a great ball handler, and honestly, has a very good stroke on his shot. His percentages are low, but that's due to shot selection, not poor shooting skill.

    There's a reason why people though he would be the next Deron Williams, sans defense.

    However, he's a very poor defender, and not very athletic, which leads to many of his shots getting blocked in the lane. Sometimes I see him trying to defend (and this is when he tries), but he's just not capable. His lateral foot speed is just not good enough (and again, this is when he's actually trying).

    I see it as a fair trade for both sides... The Nets probably got their first round draft pick back, and the Warriors get a low risk, high reward type player in a Nellie-style point guard. He can only get better, and he's put up some big numbers with the Nets with good playing time. Numbers, not wins, mind you.

    On the bright side, it looks like he's been working out a lot this summer, trying to get slimmer and he's been mentioning defense a lot as one of his goals to improve over the summer. So the future may be bright for him after all. If anything, the Warriors are the perfect situation, and I hope both him and the Warriors do well!
     
    kdub, Jul 23, 2008
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  17. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kdub @ Jul 23 2008, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Marcus will be great running Nellie's "offense", but I'm not sure picking him up equates to wins.

    He's a great passer, a great ball handler, and honestly, has a very good stroke on his shot. His percentages are low, but that's due to shot selection, not poor shooting skill.

    There's a reason why people though he would be the next Deron Williams, sans defense.

    However, he's a very poor defender, and not very athletic, which leads to many of his shots getting blocked in the lane. Sometimes I see him trying to defend (and this is when he tries), but he's just not capable. His lateral foot speed is just not good enough (and again, this is when he's actually trying).

    I see it as a fair trade for both sides... The Nets probably got their first round draft pick back, and the Warriors get a low risk, high reward type player in a Nellie-style point guard. He can only get better, and he's put up some big numbers with the Nets with good playing time. Numbers, not wins, mind you.

    On the bright side, it looks like he's been working out a lot this summer, trying to get slimmer and he's been mentioning defense a lot as one of his goals to improve over the summer. So the future may be bright for him after all. If anything, the Warriors are the perfect situation, and I hope both him and the Warriors do well!</div>
    Unathletic, crappy defense, great passer and great shooting stroke? Reminds me of another slow, unathletic PG Nellie plucked out of Santa Clara a while back...
     
    Run BJM, Jul 23, 2008
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  18. kdub

    kdub Cal's best coming to the Swamp!

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jul 23 2008, 05:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kdub @ Jul 23 2008, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Marcus will be great running Nellie's "offense", but I'm not sure picking him up equates to wins.

    He's a great passer, a great ball handler, and honestly, has a very good stroke on his shot. His percentages are low, but that's due to shot selection, not poor shooting skill.

    There's a reason why people though he would be the next Deron Williams, sans defense.

    However, he's a very poor defender, and not very athletic, which leads to many of his shots getting blocked in the lane. Sometimes I see him trying to defend (and this is when he tries), but he's just not capable. His lateral foot speed is just not good enough (and again, this is when he's actually trying).

    I see it as a fair trade for both sides... The Nets probably got their first round draft pick back, and the Warriors get a low risk, high reward type player in a Nellie-style point guard. He can only get better, and he's put up some big numbers with the Nets with good playing time. Numbers, not wins, mind you.

    On the bright side, it looks like he's been working out a lot this summer, trying to get slimmer and he's been mentioning defense a lot as one of his goals to improve over the summer. So the future may be bright for him after all. If anything, the Warriors are the perfect situation, and I hope both him and the Warriors do well!</div>
    Unathletic, crappy defense, great passer and great shooting stroke? Reminds me of another slow, unathletic PG Nellie plucked out of Santa Clara a while back...
    </div>

    Haha, well, he definitely has the court vision, I'll give you that. I thought Nash was a tireless gym rat though? Because Williams is not. He may be on the upward swing of his career though, because supposedly he's been working out hard in the gym.
     
    kdub, Jul 23, 2008
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  19. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    Yeah, Nash is one of the most in-shape players in the league. Not gifted with that much but is relentless in the gym to make up for it (from what I've read).

    Perhaps Mags (a super gym rat as well) will rub off on Marcus?
     
    AlleyOop, Jul 23, 2008
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  20. kdub

    kdub Cal's best coming to the Swamp!

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlleyOop @ Jul 23 2008, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, Nash is one of the most in-shape players in the league. Not gifted with that much but is relentless in the gym to make up for it (from what I've read).

    Perhaps Mags (a super gym rat as well) will rub off on Marcus?</div>

    Yeah, I think more than anything, Marcus needs a new situation/environment. He'll be closer to home too, so that will probably also help.
     
    kdub, Jul 24, 2008
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