<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 11 2008, 12:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually offered pegs, Josh Howard and my 10th for Joe Johnson and Peg's 12th. Pegs said "not even close". But than I really lucked out and got Pierce and a 7th for Love and Howard. I knew you guys didn't like Howard as an Sg so I got a real SG. Right now my team is a lot like the real Celtic's big three except younger. PG- Bibby SG- Pierce SF- G.Wallace PF- Amare</div> In a sense, Amare's only half the player KG is, but with Wallace instead of Allen, Amare's defensive liabilities are less important and his superior ability to step up in important moments is more important. </div> Funny you bring that up. Lets look at there "clutch stats" per 48 min: (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points) Lets compare Amare to lets say Dwight Howard Amare: 39.8 points Dwight: 13.8 points Amare: 50% fg Dwight: 43.8 fg% Amare: 20.9 fta Dwight: 13.1 fta </div> First off, we're having a nice debate- let's avoid telling lwp what he can't call a player. Secondly, my point was that Amare is better in the clutch than KG- not because I know anything special about Amare, but because KG is pretty bad in big moments. Thirdly, let's go back to 82games and throw some defensive stats in- opposing players averaged 16.7 pp48 (henceforth, "points") against Dwight. PF's averaged 17.1 points against KG, and C's 15.3 points. Against Amare, PF's averaged 26.1 points, and C's 23.9 points. Recall that the other part of my point was that Amare is worse at defense than KG. </div> hey amare does not give up 26.1 and 23.9. what year are you looking at? He gives up 23.2 agaisnt power forwards per 48 and and 21.3 agaisnt centers per 48. But... he averages like 31 pts a game per 48 so IMO thats a pretty damn good plus minus </div> I'm looking at last year. Am I seeing it wrong? Amare: Visit My Website KG: Visit My Website Dwight: Visit My Website
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 11 2008, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Sean Williams is an awesome shot blocker. Is he a good defender? MULTI-POSTS FTW</div> No, but Amare Stoudamire is. </div> huh? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Blocks make a person a good defender.</div>
my bad I was looking at PER... but than it makes Amare's plus minus per 48 more than plus 10. Ok I admit now he does play poor defense but that doesn't effect his value to the team
Alright done with the picks, went with Moon and House. Starting lineup, Fisher, Wade, Moon, Odom, Chandler, bench starting with House who can backup both Fisher and Wade.
Blocks do make a person a good defender, but that doesn't mean you can ignore really really bad post defense. That's why I like Amare's defensive ability but not Sean's.
ok so average post defender, great shotblocker, and that's why I wouldn't say he's half the player KG is, nor speak on any defensive deficiencies.
Man, I wasted a quarter of my ADD pill on this debate. I thought this was the kind of distraction the pills were supposed to keep me away from.
Maybe Phoenix' upscale offense leads to opponents doing better than you'd expect, too. Amare's DIFFERENCE in PER (his offense vs. opponent's offense) is spectacular. Nice to see KC using stats to defend his arguments!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe Phoenix' upscale offense leads to opponents doing better than you'd expect, too. Amare's DIFFERENCE in PER (his offense vs. opponent's offense) is spectacular. Nice to see KC using stats to defend his arguments! </div> whoa whoa whoa. i DID NOT use stats to defend anything. (at least i don't think i did in this one?)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ok so average post defender, great shotblocker, and that's why I wouldn't say he's half the player KG is, nor speak on any defensive deficiencies.</div> i never said anything about him being half the player kg is. we haven't talked about team defense, positioning, or defensive rotations which amare is deficient in, which makes his defense sub par. part of this can be measured by personal fouls. notice that amare fouls at a pretty significantly higher rate than say...KG?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 11 2008, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ok so average post defender, great shotblocker, and that's why I wouldn't say he's half the player KG is, nor speak on any defensive deficiencies.</div> i never said anything about him being half the player kg is. we haven't talked about team defense, positioning, or defensive rotations which amare is deficient in, which makes his defense sub par. part of this can be measured by personal fouls. notice that amare fouls at a pretty significantly higher rate than say...KG? </div> Oh nah, I was only bringing this full circle, and explaining how my thoughts were justified, and why I got into this discussion in the first place (I believe it was lukewarm who mentioned that KG comment).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe Phoenix' upscale offense leads to opponents doing better than you'd expect, too. Amare's DIFFERENCE in PER (his offense vs. opponent's offense) is spectacular. Nice to see KC using stats to defend his arguments! </div> Yep, and I'm not arguing that he's not a big positive for his team. But one way to check your first point would be to see how he compares to others on his team- last year, players averaged 18.4 "points" against Shaq (it was 26.1 and 23.9 for Amare). When Amare didn't play in 2005 - and you can claim Phoenix had a similarly high-powered offense - players averaged 17.5 and 15.7 against Kurt Thomas, who is a good defender.
i think amare's a fantastic player, athletic freak, awesome on offense. but his defense leaves a lot to be desired.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 11 2008, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ok so average post defender, great shotblocker, and that's why I wouldn't say he's half the player KG is, nor speak on any defensive deficiencies.</div> i never said anything about him being half the player kg is. we haven't talked about team defense, positioning, or defensive rotations which amare is deficient in, which makes his defense sub par. part of this can be measured by personal fouls. notice that amare fouls at a pretty significantly higher rate than say...KG? </div> Oh nah, I was only bringing this full circle, and explaining how my thoughts were justified, and why I got into this discussion in the first place (I believe it was lukewarm who mentioned that KG comment). </div> If you're nitpicking with half, fine, that was hyperbole- but Amare is slightly superior offensively to KG (and is better in the clutch), so how much better does KG have to be defensively to be universally considered a better player (at least for now)?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 01:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>KG is twice the defensive player that Amare is, that alone makes him the better player.</div> winner winner chicken dinner.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>my bad I was looking at PER... but than it makes Amare's plus minus per 48 more than plus 10. Ok I admit now he does play poor defense but that doesn't effect his value to the team</div> Well, it does in the sense that he could be that much better- but what I was saying is he might be better suited to play with Wallace - and therefore in some ways better for your team - than KG would be. Using the big 3 comparison, from long, long ago.
