<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right and then I came in because you said its objective and I disagreed. Then you talked about the virtues of a large sample size without defending your use of the "hands rating."</div> LOL You're mischaracterizing the whole discussion now. You asked me if there are other ways to measure such things, and I answered, giving you the chance to offer something (which you didn't) first. If you ask the question, "Does JR Smith have a low IQ?" (which is KC's position), and you have a large sample, then lots of people will consider it from lots of angles. Some will use hands rating, some will use +/-, and some will use the sphincter test. In the end, you would get an answer all things considered. Obviously, if you took a sample size of 1 and that 1 was KC, the answer would be biased.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate)</div><div class='quotemain'>Point me to the stat page for boneheaded plays, good/bad decisions made on the court, and awareness please!</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right and then I came in because you said its objective and I disagreed. Then you talked about the virtues of a large sample size without defending your use of the "hands rating."</div> LOL You're mischaracterizing the whole discussion now. You asked me if there are other ways to measure such things, and I answered, giving you the chance to offer something (which you didn't) first. If you ask the question, "Does JR Smith have a low IQ?" (which is KC's position), and you have a large sample, then lots of people will consider it from lots of angles. Some will use hands rating, some will use +/-, and some will use the sphincter test. In the end, you would get an answer all things considered. Obviously, if you took a sample size of 1 and that 1 was KC, the answer would be biased. </div> You've been doing that during the whole argument.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Aug 4 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right and then I came in because you said its objective and I disagreed. Then you talked about the virtues of a large sample size without defending your use of the "hands rating."</div> LOL You're mischaracterizing the whole discussion now. You asked me if there are other ways to measure such things, and I answered, giving you the chance to offer something (which you didn't) first. If you ask the question, "Does JR Smith have a low IQ?" (which is KC's position), and you have a large sample, then lots of people will consider it from lots of angles. Some will use hands rating, some will use +/-, and some will use the sphincter test. In the end, you would get an answer all things considered. Obviously, if you took a sample size of 1 and that 1 was KC, the answer would be biased. </div> You've been doing that during the whole argument. </div> No I haven't. How much basketball have you watched on TV, anyhow? Obviously if you had watched as much as me, you'd agree with me (Humor, damn it)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate)</div><div class='quotemain'>Point me to the stat page for boneheaded plays, good/bad decisions made on the court, and awareness please!</div> </div> And where in that does it imply a ballhandling stat?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 4 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>basketball IQ, not just IQ.</div> Right, basketball IQ.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Aug 4 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right and then I came in because you said its objective and I disagreed. Then you talked about the virtues of a large sample size without defending your use of the "hands rating."</div> LOL You're mischaracterizing the whole discussion now. You asked me if there are other ways to measure such things, and I answered, giving you the chance to offer something (which you didn't) first. If you ask the question, "Does JR Smith have a low IQ?" (which is KC's position), and you have a large sample, then lots of people will consider it from lots of angles. Some will use hands rating, some will use +/-, and some will use the sphincter test. In the end, you would get an answer all things considered. Obviously, if you took a sample size of 1 and that 1 was KC, the answer would be biased. </div> You've been doing that during the whole argument. </div> No I haven't. How much basketball have you watched on TV, anyhow? Obviously if you had watched as much as me, you'd agree with me (Humor, damn it) </div> Cough It's humor if it's funny. Or poor humor at best....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Aug 4 2008, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate)</div><div class='quotemain'>Point me to the stat page for boneheaded plays, good/bad decisions made on the court, and awareness please!</div> </div> And where in that does it imply a ballhandling stat? </div> http://streaming.stat.iastate.edu/~stat101/homepage.html
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 5 2008, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> I was told in no uncertain terms that he has little basketball IQ because of his proneness to turnovers.</div> Where? </div> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate)</div><div class='quotemain'>Point me to the stat page for boneheaded plays, good/bad decisions made on the court, and awareness please!</div> </div> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're mischaracterizing the whole discussion now.</div> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 5 2008, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> I was told in no uncertain terms that he has little basketball IQ because of his proneness to turnovers.</div> Where? </div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 4 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>basketball IQ, not just IQ.</div> Right, basketball IQ. </div> That's right, we are talking about bball IQ. Good job Denny.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Aug 4 2008, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate)</div><div class='quotemain'>Point me to the stat page for boneheaded plays, good/bad decisions made on the court, and awareness please!</div> </div> And where in that does it imply a ballhandling stat? </div> http://streaming.stat.iastate.edu/~stat101/homepage.html </div> Why didnt you take the courses denny?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB @ Aug 4 2008, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Assists are heavily factored in the "hands rating" statistic (thanks to KC for pointing that out). Ray Allen's is that low because he is a shooter, not a passer. It's not the best indicator of "decision making."</div> Smith's a shooter too. He scores 2 points every 3 minutes, which is a phenomenal scoring rate. He must be making those decisions well. </div> Not a logical conclusion nor correct. JR has a ton of OH NO, good shot moments where he launches 27 footers 11 seconds into the shot clock. Additionally, scoring at a high rate has no direct correlation to making good decisions. That scoring rate could be done at the detriment of the other players on the court or outside the flow of the offense. Look at his playing time. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I pointed out that in 38 MPG, he would likely average close to 4 APG, which is also phenomenal for a SG; does that speak to his ability to find open men for a scoring chance? If so, what does that say about his decision making?</div> First, you have to look at the pace the the Nuggets play at, which is very fast. Second, he would have would have almost the same amount of turnovers. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe he gambles for steals to much or something, but he's successful at getting them at a rate as high as the league leaders in that category. What does that say about his decision making?</div> 0.8 steals per game is not close to the league leaders. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He dominates opposing SGs he plays against with a PER difference of over 5.5. PER measures a number of basketball related skills, not just scoring or passing or rebounding. His PER is over 20, which is +5 over what would be league average.</div> JR's PER was 18.1 for the season and he plays mostly against second team SG. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>His +/- indicates his team does better with him on the court than off. Is this an indication of poor decision making? +/- doesn't measure his scoring or passing or rebounding, it measures what the whole team does, and his decision making would be a pretty good part of it, no?</div> +/- has no correlation to decision making. Your attempted stretch breaks before it reaches a point.
The stats do measure his boneheaded plays. Bad passes are boneheaded plays. His assists/48 minutes wouldn't be so great if he didn't make good decisions. His opponents' PER would be terrible if he made boneheaded plays and let them score on him. His +/- wouldn't be positive if the cumulative result of all these anecdotal boneheaded plays were costly at all (and you think they would be).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You asked me if there are other ways to measure such things, and I answered, giving you the chance to offer something (which you didn't) first.</div> Why would I answer the question I asked you!? ahhh! ahhhhhhh!!!! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If you ask the question, "Does JR Smith have a low IQ?"</div> No! I'm not trying to ask that question! haha that's what you and KC are talking about. Stop deflecting! All I'm asking is for your reasoning why the "hand rating" is objective.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 5 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You asked me if there are other ways to measure such things, and I answered, giving you the chance to offer something (which you didn't) first.</div> Why would I answer the question I asked you!? ahhh! ahhhhhhh!!!! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If you ask the question, "Does JR Smith have a low IQ?"</div> No! I'm not trying to ask that question! haha that's what you and KC are talking about. Stop deflecting! All I'm asking is for your reasoning why the "hand rating" is objective. </div> I went crazy half an hour ago as well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Aug 4 2008, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB @ Aug 4 2008, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Assists are heavily factored in the "hands rating" statistic (thanks to KC for pointing that out). Ray Allen's is that low because he is a shooter, not a passer. It's not the best indicator of "decision making."</div> Smith's a shooter too. He scores 2 points every 3 minutes, which is a phenomenal scoring rate. He must be making those decisions well. </div> Not a logical conclusion nor correct. JR has a ton of OH NO, good shot moments where he launches 27 footers 11 seconds into the shot clock. Additionally, scoring at a high rate has no direct correlation to making good decisions. That scoring rate could be done at the detriment of the other players on the court or outside the flow of the offense. Look at his playing time. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I pointed out that in 38 MPG, he would likely average close to 4 APG, which is also phenomenal for a SG; does that speak to his ability to find open men for a scoring chance? If so, what does that say about his decision making?</div> First, you have to look at the pace the the Nuggets play at, which is very fast. Second, he would have would have almost the same amount of turnovers. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe he gambles for steals to much or something, but he's successful at getting them at a rate as high as the league leaders in that category. What does that say about his decision making?</div> 0.8 steals per game is not close to the league leaders. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He dominates opposing SGs he plays against with a PER difference of over 5.5. PER measures a number of basketball related skills, not just scoring or passing or rebounding. His PER is over 20, which is +5 over what would be league average.</div> JR's PER was 18.1 for the season and he plays mostly against second team SG. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>His +/- indicates his team does better with him on the court than off. Is this an indication of poor decision making? +/- doesn't measure his scoring or passing or rebounding, it measures what the whole team does, and his decision making would be a pretty good part of it, no?</div> +/- has no correlation to decision making. Your attempted stretch breaks before it reaches a point. </div> http://www.82games.com/0708/07DEN7C.HTM His PER at SG is 20.9. He played 29% of all of Denver's available minutes at the SG position. PROVE +/- has no correlation to decision making. You offer NOTHING in the form of support for your argument, which makes it not much of a case for your POV at all. Same for the rest of your post. Except, you got the .8 SPG wrong. That's .8 SPG per 19 minutes. The 1.6 SPG per 38 minutes would be 5th in the league.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You asked me if there are other ways to measure such things, and I answered, giving you the chance to offer something (which you didn't) first.</div> Why would I answer the question I asked you!? ahhh! ahhhhhhh!!!! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If you ask the question, "Does JR Smith have a low IQ?"</div> No! I'm not trying to ask that question! haha that's what you and KC are talking about. Stop deflecting! All I'm asking is for your reasoning why the "hand rating" is objective. </div> Why is the hand rating objective? Because an objective statistician counts measurable boneheaded plays and the result is the hands rating.
Jason Collins: 3.4 7.5 for his career but collins net PER from the center position was -12.5, and from PF Collins is a dumbass. Collins is a dumbass. Collins is a dumbass.
