Your Prediction for the Upcoming Season?

Its the element of surprise.


What nobody seems to understand is the psychology factor with pro athletes/teams. The entire league shit all over Bynum during his first two seasons. Then last year he had some good games in December and January. You don't think the element of surprise comes into play here at all? Bynum caught quite a few off guard. After the way he performed his first two years, they're not going to pay him any kind of special attention, defensively. Now, after hearing about Bynum-mania all summer, do you think teams will be a little more attentive to Bynum in their game plans? How's he going to handle being the focal point of a team's down-low defense? He's going to have some pretty average nights, especially in the early going.


And to anyone that planned on saying 'That won't happen, he's too good, he's Andrew Bynum' in response to the above paragraph... no, shut up, and no.

We're playing the depth game?


So for your Odom, I raise you Ginobili. Who do you take? I take Ginobili, thanks. For your Fisher, meet Roger Mason. For your Ariza, meet Ime Udoka (just as good a defender, much better long distance shooter). For your Chris Mihm, I have Kurt Thomas, a better rebounder/defender than Mihm, and he can hit a mid range shot. For Sasha, the Spurs have Salim Stoudamire and Matt Bonner who can both bomb it from three. That's the only job description for Sasha as far as I know, hitting the three.

 

Agreed on basically all accounts. There isn't a team in the West, maybe even the NBA, that has the depth and talent that we do. A lot of teams struggle to go 8 deep, we can go at least 10 deep on any given night. We are LOADED on offense and should be an improved defensive team.

However, I'm not buying the Rockets yet. I'll still take the Hornets and Jazz over them.

 

Ray Allen broke his ankles. Ray Allen can barely run.

Oh well, I guess Ginobili can account for both Odom and Sasha without much trouble.

No, Udoka's a better defender than Ariza, and knocks down threes far more consistenly than Ariza.

Overall? Manu's better, little doubt about it. He's a better shooter, better scorer, better defender, better passer, and draws a lot of calls.

Bruce Bowen and Kurt Thomas. I also like the Gasol/Duncan matchup, if I'm San Antonio.

These games are not played on paper, sir. The Spurs have won 4 titles in 9 years, they know what it takes to win, and they know to beat supposedly unbeatable teams like your Lakers.

 

Bynum has proven to be a guy who can rebound the ball and block shots. None of which Gasol is capable of doing. He has proven to be a guy who can give us a legit presence down low instead of a pushover like Pau Gasol.

I said in my opinion, the Spurs aren't knocking us out. And like I said, anything can happen, and my opinion isn't absolute. You got a problem?

No I'm not. I said they give us an added boost of the bench. Instead of having to play Luke Walton big minutes every game, and have him come in and completely kill us, we'll give it to somebody who can actually play some defense. And looking at our bench, compared to San Antonio's, I say we have the advantage, do we not?

 

Beno Udrih broke Kobe's ankles. I guess Kobe can't play defense.

Not trying to say Sasha is a good defender though, don't get me wrong, because he isn't. He's average at best, but he's been known to get into opposing player's heads with his pesky defensive tactics. (see Carmelo and Mike Bibby)

Sure. Having a presence down low definitely accounts for something. As is moving Gasol back to his natural position so he can play at his strengths, something he wasn't able to do last year.

Udoka isn't a huge upgrade over Ariza, but I agree.

Agreed.

Bowen didn't do anything to stop Kobe last year, and Kurt Thomas was pretty much non-existent against us in the postseason.

Okay, so why play the season then? I wouldn't want to waste your time. Just start off on Wednesday with a Celtics vs Spurs seven game series.

Again, I find it funny how it seems like your making it sound like an absolute fact the Lakers will get eliminated by the Spurs.

 

How can Gasol be a pushover if he's doing a good defensive job on Tim Duncan? I don't follow.

No.

I ran this down already. The Lakers might have a small advantage, but the Spurs are pretty deep too. Ginobili/Mason/Thomas/Udoka isn't too bad. Ginobili's a borderline all-star. The rest of the three is not the most talented group, but they're experienced, they know their roles, they're smart players, and as a result they produce and do not hurt the team. All the Spurs really need out of their bench is supplemental shooting and defense.

Odom and Gasol averaged about 19 boards between them last season. Odom averaged 10, Bynum also averaged 10. Since I can assume Odom won't be spending much time in the 1st unit with Gasol and Bynum this season, where's the big improvement?


Two 7 footers definitely helps with your interior defense, if the majority of San Antonio's offense came from down low that would be a real issue for SA.

But he's a pushover!

So he might be up for 6MOY contention. That year in Miami he didn't have to out-do Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, and oh yeah Kobe Bryant to get his numbers.

I can't convince you anything. What I'm doing is debating. If you don't like it now, you're going to hate me by midseason, I can already tell.

 

His length is what gives him an advantage of Duncan (well sort of, it's what gives Duncan trouble). But he is no shot blocking presence and he is not a great rebounder. Guards aren't afraid to penetrate into the paint. If you watch our games from the first half of last season, to the second half, you'd notice a difference. Gasol doesn't strike fear in opponents like Bynum does, because they know he is not a shot blocker.

Farmar/Sasha/Ariza/Odom/Powell-Mihm isn't bad either. Not to mention we have one of, if not THE best player in the league in Kobe Bryant.

The big improvement is making Lamar an option off the bench. Lamar Odom is not a center, he does not patrol the paint, he is not a shot blocker. And also, once again, having Bynum in the lineup moves Gasol down to power forward. And once again, Gasol was playing out of position all of last season. His mid range game is one of his biggest strengths, and he wasn't able to utilize it last season because we had him playing down low. Next season, with Bynum in the paint, I fully expect to see Gasol's mid range game in action. He showed a bit of it in the Olympics, and he was very effective. Ask any Laker fan, he's been showing off his mid range game in the preseason, and it's absolutely money.

It helps because guards will think twice on driving to the hoop, and it'll limit the Spur's biggest weapon, Tim Duncan down low.

I'll say this again, Gasol's length frustrates Duncan, but if you think he's a good option down low then you are mistaken. Duncan had 87 rebounds against us in the series. Gasol, 48.

He played with Caron Butler and rookie Dwyane Wade, and helped lead them to the second round of the playoffs. That year he averaged 17 points, 10 boards, and 4 assists. I call that "borderline" allstar, especially with the amount of impact he had with that team. Wouldn't you?

Really? That's funny. I tried debating in the Portland forum and all I got was "your favorite player is a rapist"

Sorry if I come off that way, because I'm not. You're gonna like us next year when the Spurs are eliminated and we're still playing.

 

What good is length if he can't block shots (or rebound well)? By that reasoning, Shawn Bradley should have driven Duncan insane.

Didn't I say that lineup had a very slight advantage over the Spurs' bench?

We're talking about depth. Kobe Bryant is not depth, he is the main building block of the franchise.

So how does that help the rebounding game (the argument you originally used)?

What I meant was... how does it help against San Antonio's armory full of three point shooters?


Tony Parker will rip Gasol apart if he meets him in the paint. He's the best guard in the league at attacking the paint and scoring. Bynum won't even stifle him.

Yes I would.

A) That holds what relevance to what we're discussing?

B) FTR, Dwyane Wade led that team to the 2nd round, and Caron Butler didn't even average double figures.

C) He has to get his numbers while Gasol, Bryant, and Bynum all get theirs. He'll wind up with about 12 points a game, 6 or so rebounds. Not all-star numbers. Sixth man consideration, maybe.

You probably won the argument, so they had to resort the rapist stuff. Nice job.


I keep it strictly basketball unless someone provokes me with something personal first.

 

You would rather take odom over Manu?? What have you smoked lately cuzz i want some

 

I agree Manu>Odom for sure...but maybe not with the way the Lakers are built

 

Just move Kobe to sf


FISHER
MANU
KOBE
GASOL
BYNUM

that is a scary starting line up

 

JE, don't want you to think I've given up, because I haven't :]

But I got no time for a response today. With the season opener, which I completely didn't even plan for because I thought it was on Wednesday, and a project + paper I have to finish, I got no time to respond to you.

Just be patient I'll come back tomorrow.

 

Whatever...Im perfectly happy with Odom, especially in the 2nd string

 

Length certainly helps. Look at Lamar a couple of years ago in the playoffs against the Suns. He was going up against Shawn Marion (who is obviously the better player), and was able to frustrate and get the better of Marion on most occasions because of his length. Same goes for Gasol. He uses his length to frustrate Duncan. Shawn Bradley is also no where near the type of player Gasol is. Gasol runs the floor very well for a big man, he's pretty quick for his size. The same cannot be said about Bradley.

And no, Gasol isn't a great shot blocker by any means. He also isn't that great of a rebounder for his size.

Touche. My bad.

Sorry, but all this time I keep seeing you talk about how much better the Spurs are, how can we stop him, how can we stop that guy. Well what about Kobe? Who's gonna stop Kobe? Who's gonna stop the best player in the league (2nd best, 3rd best if you want to go there, completely different argument I don't want to get into). Bowen obviously didn't work last year, and he is the Spur's best defender. And also, who's gonna stop the Bynum / Kobe pick and roll? Gasol / Kobe pick and roll? They were effective last year, and I'm sure having an actual training camp under them, we'll see more of it in action next season.

Well for starters, Gasol isn't a great rebounder. He only averages 8 per game for his career, so replacing him with someone like Bynum, who can give you at least 10 a game when healthy, maybe even more is a big plus. Also, once again, Bynum and Gasol's length will definitely prove to be an advantage. Gasol is 7 foot, Bynum is 7 foot, but there are reports that say he is actually 7'1, not sure if it's true or not. Looking at the media day pics, I'm sure Bynum is taller than Gasol, but not by an inch. Anyways, Bynum has a good 2 inches or so over Lamar, not to mention his wingspan. Once he gets his timing back and knocks off the rust, you will see a big improvement in the rebounding department, because he'll do much better than Gasol did for us in the paint. He's stronger, bulkier, lengthier, and flat out a better rebounder. And also, offensively, Bynum is one of the better offensive rebounders, and he'll give us a lot more second chance opportunities than Gasol did.

What armory full of three point shooters?

A healthy Ginobli shoots 46%, free agent Roger Mason shoots 44%. After that, they aren't that special. Bruce shot 42%, Finley shot 41% (he's on his last legs btw), and Udoka only shot 37%.

Granted, those are not bad numbers by any means, but they don't really alarm me.

As for the Lakers, how are the Spurs going to stop the Laker's armory full of three point shooters?

Fisher shot 44% last year, Vujacic 45%, Vladrad 41%, Kobe 46%, and Farmar shot 37%, but it could've been much higher if he didn't receive dead legs at the end of the season.

But anyways, I don't see much of a difference. It goes both ways. Also, Trevor Ariza, who supposedly has absolutely no range and can't shoot threes has worked his ass of during the offseason developing a three point shot. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Granted, it's only a small sample size, his shooting, and long range shooting has been very impressive in preseason, and in tonight's win over the Blazers, he went 2-2.

I'm not saying we're gonna eliminate Parker. But ask any Laker fan out there. During the first half of the season, Fisher and Farmar looked decent, not great, but decent defensively. Then when Bynum went down, their defense went down along with him. Even with Gasol in the lineup, their defense didn't improve that drastically. It's one of the advantages of having a big body down low, having someone who can block and alter shots, which Bynum has a huge advantage over Gasol on. Just look at the Kobe/Shaq years. Fisher was never a great defender, but we survived because we had Shaq down low. Now, by no means am I comparing Bynum to a prime time Shaquille O'Neal (I can only wish), but it's kind of the same principle. He's a big upgrade over Gasol.

A) I'm saying he's border line allstar talent, not saying he's gonna be close to making an allstar team this year.

B) Well, Lamar averaged 17 ppg, 8 boards, 3 assists, and shot 45% from the field in the playoff run. Wade averaged 18 ppg, 4 boards, 6 assists, and shot 46% from the field. In the first round against the Hornets, he averaged 15 ppg, 4 boards, and 6 assists. Whereas Lamar averaged 16 ppg, 8 boards, and 4 assists. So yes, I do know about Wade's heroics during the series, but number wise, they are pretty much identical. Also, I never said Lamar carried the team on his shoulders, I said he helped lead the Heat to the second round, which he definitely did. Him and Wade were a great 1-2 in that series.

C) Again, never said he would be an allstar, just merely he is an allstar talent. Having someone of his skill coming off the bench is a great plus, just like the Spurs with Ginobli once he gets back from injury.

Ah no problem. I don't do personal attacks

 

Its far easier to disrupt a wing player with length than a 7 foot post player with multiple MVPs.


The Shawn Bradley comment was semi-sarcastic, the only person he drove insane was Don Nelson.

Bowen's a good enough defender to contain Kobe, and if that fails, Udoka and Ginobili can handle him (by handle I don't mean shut down, no one really shuts down Kobe).


The pick and roll will be trouble, but the Spurs have the best team defense in the league, Popovich has these guys disciplined, confident, and ready for anything. They can get it done, they have the perimeter stoppers and the down low guys to stop it.

I thought I said that Odom averaged 10 rebounds a game last year, as did Bynum. So they pretty much cancel out there.


I agree that Bynum does in general bulk up the interior defense, but players like Tony Parker and Manu can still get their points on the drive.

Udoka shot over 40% the year before though and is up near 40% for his career.


Matt Bonner has a stroke from three as well, he's up near 40% if you toss last year's down season.

It is a small sample size, I need to see more before labeling him a three point threat.

Upgrade over Gasol does not necessarily mean that LA's defense suddenly becomes suffocating, for the reason you stated - Bynum isn't Shaq (in his prime). Don't forget that Fisher also has 5 more years on his legs since those days with Shaq behind him.

Point being, Wade was the team's leader. The two put up comparable stats, but Wade was the core of those Heat teams.

 

Dude you're in a Laker forum, you're torturing yourself for no reason.

I'll let Lost One handle all this "rebounding", depth, etc., business though. He told me to not interrupt because he has some points to make so I respect that. :] This sure is fun at least.

 

Okay? But Gasol limited Duncan, a career 51% shooter, to 42% in the playoffs. Obviously length had an advantage. How else did he stop Duncan? By using his strength? His body? Obviously not because Gasol is not strong enough. He used his length (wing span) and his quick speed to disrupt Duncan's offensive game.

As you said, Bowen cannot stop Kobe. As evidenced by these head to head stats (see last 7 games specifically, because Bowen's defense has declined with age):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=bowenbr01

Manu cannot stop Kobe either:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=ginobma01

And things are only going to get harder with a legit post presence. Not to mention we won’t need Kobe going on a scoring binge just to win games. We have more than enough weapons to get the job done without having Kobe score 30.

They may be a great defensive team, but I don’t see them stopping our pick and roll. Last year, the Bynum and Kobe connection worked like a charm. The Gasol and Kobe connection worked terrifically as well, even though Gasol was acquired midseason without training camp, without any time to get familiar with Kobe and the triangle offense, which usually takes on average, three years or so to get down completely (the triangle offense). Things are going to be even nastier next year with him back in his natural position (which I have explained, and will explain again later), and Bynum back on court.

As good as the Spurs are defensively, I’m sorry but I don’t think they can stop us.

This isn’t an inexperienced Lakers team either. Last year, I was amazed at the poise most of the guys showed during the postseason run. That obviously came crashing to an end in the Finals, where the pressure and atmosphere got the best of them. Besides Kobe, Fish, and Lamar (once), nobody else has experienced basketball beyond the first round. Luke doesn’t really count because he played sparing his rookie year. Next year, experience shouldn’t be a factor. Nerves shouldn’t be a factor. This team went all the way to the Finals without their starting center. Next year, we will be more poised and ready in the postseason and the Finals, assuming we make it that far, obviously

No they don't cancel each other out. For starters, getting Bynum back shifts Gasol over to powerfoward. He doesn't have to play in the paint every single minute like he did last year. Having Bynum inside, controlling the boards, is a lot different, and will show us major improvement this season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2008.html

Go to advanced stats, look at TRB% (total rebounds per game). Bynum 20% obviously beats out Gasol's 13%, and Lamar's 16%. 7% is obviously a big deal, especially for a player playing the majority of the game in the paint. So in a way, yes it does improve our rebounding game, a lot. Because Gasol, for his size, under performs as a rebounder. Such performance will only be highlighted with him playing in the paint every possession at center.

And on the topic of Gasol, once again, he was playing out of position ever since he came to the Lakers. Playing center, a position he obviously was not fit for, night in and night out for half a season, plus postseason obviously wears you down. Especially since Gasol doesn't have the body to withstand all the banging. I was actually surprised to see how long he held up. Use this as an analogy. Perkins goes down, and Garnett starts at center. How effective will he be there? How about play him at center for half a season, plus postseason and see how he holds up. A 6'11 Kevin Garnett will get worn out just like the 7'0 Pau Gasol did. I'd be interested to see how well the best defensive player in the league, Garnett's defense will hold up at center, for so long, along with his rebounding. And how pathetic he will look offensively because his mid range game cannot be used to its full capacity, something Gasol had to face all last season as a Laker. At short stints here and there, a couple of times a game, it probably wouldn’t matter. But have them play half the season plus postseason, as center essentially every minute they step onto the floor? Yeah that’s gonna be a problem. Even for Kevin Garnett!

I'm sure they would still score driving to the hoop, but having a legit shot blocker in the paint improves the defense tremendously. Once again, like I said, our point guard defense dropped off noticeably when Bynum went down. In the very game Bynum got injured, his shot blocking presence was already missed (against Memphis!!!). Kwame Brown, his replacement, is actually a very good post defender. But he is not a shot blocking threat. The importance of having a big down low who can actually block shots was evident when guards seemingly started driving to hoop at will without Bynum there to help. Having a shot blocker at center does wonders for our defense, and it was evident last year when we lost Bynum. Having him back in the lineup obviously helps, and yes, a Bynum-Gasol duo down low will definitely create problems for opposing team's big men. Two seven footers, with their length, will give us major advantages defensively. In the preseason, our defense stepped up a notch when the two were inserted in the lineup. Last night, Chris Kaman, one of the top centers in the league was held to 8 points, 3-9 shooting, 5 boards, and 4 turnovers. Expect more of that this upcoming season.

Udoka shot over 40% for one season. After that season, last year, he shot 37%. He isn’t a three point threat by any means, merely somebody who can hit shots here and there when he’s left open. And that’s somebody Ariza is going to develop into this season. Again, all offseason he’s been spending time and working his ass off on improving his shot. The coaching staff praised him in the offseason, and Phil stated that he will be a respectable shooter this year, which is what we need from him. If he can hit the threes when left open, then that’s already a bonus for us. He’s shot 4-5 on three pointers so far, and looked very impressive in the preseason.

Also, going back to depth. The Spurs are not a deeper team than us. And Udoka is NOT a better player than Ariza. The only things Udoka might have over Ariza is maybe a slight edge defensively, and a better shot. Ariza beats him out on everything else. He is more athletic, he is a much better slasher, he is much better at creating his own shot, and he is much better at driving to the hoop and drawing the foul.

And once again, on the Spurs depth, they are not deeper than us (I know you already mentioned this, just reiterating, we are much deeper than you thought). The Lakers can go 11-12 men deep, the Spurs cannot. Who was their first player off the bench last night? Matt Bonner if I remember correctly. Matt Bonner is not a great basketball player, he would not see the light of day on our squad. Who is the Spurs backup point guard? Jacque Vaughn. Another scrub who wouldn’t see any playing time on our roster. Depth is one of the Laker's biggest strengths, it is not one of the Spur's biggest strengths.

Not to mention out of the top Western Conference teams (no order): Lakers, Rockets, Hornets, Suns, Mavericks, and the Jazz, the Spurs probably have the worst starting center. Oberto wouldn’t start for any of the teams mentioned above, he is nothing more than a backup center. He wouldn't even start for over half the teams in the league. Kurt Thomas, at this day and age, isn’t effective as he once was, and is no longer starting material. He’s a backup.

And for the upcoming season, I’m not sure what’s going to happen, but if the Spurs continue starting Michael Finley then they’re screwed. Finley is not a starter in the league, and age is definitely catching up to him. He looked old and tired, and couldn’t keep up with us in the playoffs. In fact, he shot only 40% in the postseason.

Which is great and all, until you realize he is the backup power forward for the Spurs (which should be an alarm). Brian Cook shot 43%, and 40% from threes in respective years. And in these years, I dreaded him being on the court. Pat Garrity is a career 40% shooter. Doesn't mean I'd fear him on the court. Bonner isn't going to do much if anything.

Again, so far he is 4-5, looked great in the preseason, and has been praised by the coaches in training camp. I think he’ll hold up just fine. We don’t need him to be a three point specialist, we just need him to be able to knock down open shots. Which he has done so far this season. And I don't see why he wouldn't continue.

Read above. I already mentioned my point earlier.

Maybe suffocating was too strong of a word to use. But defense definitely improves with Bynum in the lineup, and having two seven footers, along with their length will be able to frustrate the hell out of opposing players on given nights. Players thought twice about driving to the rim with Bynum in the lineup. Now they’ll think again with another lengthy seven footer in the fold.

And once again, I never said Lamar was the leader. I never discredited Wade and I never said he wasn’t the leader of the team. I just said Lamar helped lead the Heat to the second round (which he did, he played a major role), and that him and Wade were a great 1-2 punch, which they certainly were.

Anyways, hopefully Wade can lead the Heat back to the playoffs this year, after the performance he had in the Olympics. He definitely has the talent around him to do it.

 

Oh jesus, I don't have time for this tonight...



Will respond tomorrow, maybe Saturday. But I'm not quitting. I'm worn out for tonight.

 

Haha no problem bro.