Magic: Pierce Is Close, But Bryant Still Best

So, because I'm lazy, I don't feel like quoting.

First and foremost...Antoine Walker. He may be a scrub now, but in his prime, he was arguably one of the top forwards in the NBA. He could shoot from distance, was a good rebounder and a pretty good ball handler too. Hell, he's averaged 20+ppg on 6 different occasions in his career. As for shot attempts, he was, admittedly, not the most efficient shooter. However...neither was Iverson...yet a lot of people praise him. So...to call him a career scrub is really an injustice to him. He was a very, very good player in his prime and was a key part on Boston when they were making the playoffs earlier this decade.

And Kobe did play on some bad teams. He led two of them to the playoffs and did so, basically by himself. He was surrounded by some pretty solid players, but no one was a consistent threat outside of him. As for the year that they missed the playoffs, injuries ravaged that team. Butler, Odom and Kobe all missed significant time that year, so did Mihm. It also didn't help their cause that they lost their coach after what, 25 games or so, and had to deal with an interim coach for most of the year.

The same goes with LeBron...he led a mostly bad Cleveland team to the Finals...and in reality, carried bad Cleveland teams to the playoffs for the last three years. Larry Hughes was an absolute bust in Cleveland and could never stay healthy, to to say he was legit help is pretty crazy. Also...when he had Boozer, he was a rookie. Let me repeat that, A ROOKIE. He was inconsistent that year and wasn't quite ready to lead that team to the playoffs. He also basically relied completely on athletic ability that year to do much or his scoring...not that that has changed extensively, but he has improved a lot since being a rookie in the league (and this is coming from someone who is constantly ragging on him).

HK touched on media bias as well...Pierce plays in a HUGE sports market in Boston. It might not be as big as LA, but it is still massive, and there's still tons of bias coming out of that region.

As for your "what if" game you play...I don't know if the Celtics would have been better with Big Z. 'Toine was a legitimate scorer that was able to take some of the burden off Pierce. He was also able to stretch the defense because of his size and ability to shoot, giving Pierce more lanes to work with. If the Celtics could have been better with Z, it would have only been marginally better. However, I'd argue that they would have been a worse team with him in the middle. But again...that's just playing a big 'ol "what if" game that no one will ever have an answer to.

And your comments about Smush are laughable. He was never a legit scorer in the NBA. He was just a chucker. His offense came and went with his jumper. He was putrid on defense. Nothing about him was good. At all. If you watched any Laker games during the Smush era, you would know that. He made boneheaded plays all over the place and was a black hole on offense far too often.

 

To those that don't think he's in the top 5, seriously?

Real quick Ill try and think of off the top of my head of Top 5 players

1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Paul Pierce
4. Chris Paul
5. Dwayne Wade
----
6. Tim Duncan

I mean, I really don't know who else to throw in that mix...am I missing anyone? There is no way Pierce isn't included in the Top 5 given everything he does for his team and how well versed he is. I'm open to arguments though, I'm not completley sold on him Top 5, but right now, I'd have to say yes.

 

Top 5 is completely objective and based on opinion, so you can't really burn someone on their thoughts of it. Personally, I still think Duncan is a top 5 player in the league, yet you have him on the outside looking in. For that matter, my top five look something like this:

1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Duncan
4. Paul
5. Wade

As you can see...no Paul Pierce. I think he's a great player, but I think there are at least five players in the NBA better than him. It's just a matter of opinion.

And lets be serious here, before Pierce went absolutely apeshit in the playoffs last year, would anyone have called him top five in the NBA? Probably not.

 

Yeah, I'd be willing to swap Duncan for Pierce in the Top 5 and drop PP to 6...that's fine with me.

One problem I do have is, that by your stands, players don't get better every year? Yeah maybe two years ago, we wouldn't have called him a Top 5 player, but we're not talking about two years ago, we're talking about now. And everything I've seen in the past year, has proven to me he is Top 5 worthy.

I think how a player performs in the playoffs and the Finals is a BIG indicator if he is Top 5 worthy. Pierce absolutely KILLED it in the Finals, and as a Laker fan it still hurts to say he outplayed Kobe. Playing at the level Pierce did in the toughest stage in the NBA speaks very loud imo.

But yeah, to each their own in this one, I'm not trying to mock anyone's list Moo, just trying to get insight, and as you said, I would def. agree and be open to swapping Duncan and Piece on my list.

 

Top 5 to me

LeBron
Kobe
CP3
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan

Paul is top 10 IMO with Mello, Dirk, Steve Nash and Yao.

Wade bumps Nash out if he can remain healthy

 

Melo has the talent for Top 10, but he isn't getting NEAR my Top 15.

 

I can see the arguement for that. I'm still not certain if he's a stat stuffer or not, but I've been a fan since the Cuse days and his play on the US team makes me believe he'd excel on any team and could play for a winner easily so I think he is a top 10 talent.

 

It's not that I don't think he can get better...but in reality...did he get better or did his team get better? In my honest opinion, he might not even be the most valuable player on that team...I think that goes to KG. He's the heart and soul of that defense and his intensity carries over to the rest of the team. His outstanding play in the Finals and playoffs was more of a byproduct of him finally having some legit firepower next to him, that way the defense didn't zone in on him on a nightly basis.

 

Where's the option for Both? KG has helped that team tremendously. It's hard to say really who's more valuable since Ray Allen came over that offseason as well. So we never really just saw Ray and Paul without KG, you know?

Either way, Pierce is Top 10 unarguably, and in some people's list (including mine) he's in the Top 5.

 

I'll agree he's without a shadow of a doubt a top 10 player, but I don't think he's top 5, at least not at this point. He could prove me wrong this year though, who knows.

 

Can we agree Thom Thibadeau is a top 5 assistant coach in the league?? Doc letting Thom run the defensive side of things is also what made a vast improvement to the Celtics

 

lol, dude....if his performance last year in the finals winning Final's MVP didn't prove it to you, then nothing will. It's obvious he's not a "fluke," so it is what it is. He has gotten much better since they've made the additions of Allen and KG, but that means nothing when it comes to including him as an individual in talks for Top 5.

 

You have my vote hands down, in fact, I have him as #1, so beat that!

EDIT: ok i lie, Lakers assistant coaches, than Thibadeau =)

 

Agreed. He did an amazing job with that defense and getting everyone to commit on that end of the court.

 

I wouldn't say so. It's always possible to sway an opinion, even mine.

 

There are other frontcourt players I'd want on my team that haven't been mentioned, Pierce is not an obvious top ten. Off the top of my head:

Kobe, LeBron, Paul, Duncan, Howard, Stoudemire, Wade, Bosh, Dirk, KG.

Last year Deron Williams was quite comparable as well, among other players.

 

I wanted to read this whole thread, but then I saw 2 different people saying Antoine Walker was a star. After that, I lost interest.

 

By the way, I'm a huge Pierce/Celtics fan, and he is not a top 5 player. End of story.

 

really?? Dirk and his shakiness over Pierce??? thanks but no thanks, I'd take Paul every day over him. Wade has to be healthy for 70+ games for me to rank him ahead of the normally reliable Pierce too.

 

sure he was infurating at times, but was also the second best player on a C's team that made the ECF's and the team was made up in a way to exploit his talents at PF. He was a good not VERY GOOD player for a few years in Boston IMO.