<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 28 2006, 04:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He is a better shooter, but he doesn't consistently take the midrange when his driving ability is taken away. This could be seen in the Detroit series when he was being guarded straight up by Tayshaun Prince, he had a lot of difficulty finding a consistent jumpshot, and took some bad fadeaways from far away, whereas the majority of Wade's shots in the Conf. finals were makeable midrange jumpshots....and he shot it at a very high %. It could also be seen against the Mavericks.Kobe and Dirk play 2 very different positions and are on 2 totally different teams. Kobe is better scorer, he has proven on teams as stacked as Dirk's Mavs he can put up his numbers, and has broken countless scoring records with and without Shaq. He is also the much better all around scorer due to his athletic ability and ability to get in such a groove that Nobody on in the league can stop him. LeBron isn't a much better overall scorer than Wade, Wade shoots ball at higher %, and both have shown the ability to get red hot and take over (although Wade has done it in much more important, clutch situations). With scoring, only advantage Bron has on Wade IMO is his 3pt shooting, which is clearly better.If Wade shot more, he'd have more points, yes. He has shown with a healthy Shaq, without a healthy Shaq, and without Shaq at all that he can put up around 30PPG or more, so yes he can get the 31PPG Bron gets. I find him a better scorer only because he has a consistent 2nd option to his driving ability despite LeBron being better long range shooter.</div>Why are you using solely playoffs? I guess Jerome James can be considered good, now?And here's something for ya..But its Bron who isn't consistent with it all, right? Hell, I didnt even know James' inside shooting was better!Your whole debate is behind one thing..generalization..blah blah..if "Wade shot more he'd score more".....etc. etc.
No it isn't, you were the one who brought that up. My arguement is he is more consistent from midrange, and you can see that watching the games. But yes, he would score more if he took more shots. It takes him a little less than 19FGA's per game to get 27.2PPG, whereas it takes Bron a little less than 24FGA's per game to get to 31.4PPG. That is 5 less FGA's per game, figure he makes 2 of those 5, and a free throw, he is at 32PPG. Both shoot at 51% from inside 3, and Bron takes many more 3's so his FG % is a little over 1% lower. That goes along with the smart factor.If you want some stats, look up the conference finals and Finals for Wade from midrange, then look at Bron vs Pistons in conference semi's (and even 1st round vs Wiz). Bron took more than half as many 3's as he did shots from 15ft-18ft, and that is the problem. He took 8 more close range shots in the Washington series, despite his teammates playing better in that series, and that series going only 6 games. That to me shows that when he is guarded by a great defender like Prince and great help D, that he has major trouble getting his points anywhere else. Wade took about half as many shots close to basket as Bron did against Pistons yet still had more PPG at a much higher %, especially from midrange. Bottom line I feel Wade has a midrange shot that he is very comfortable with to use if his driving is shutdown or limited. Bron doesn't have that go-to 2nd move if he doesn't have the driving lane as much as he is used to, and despite being a better shooter, taller, and more athletic, he doesn't have that go to 2nd option. Both are amazing at going to rim, and both can catch fire at any given time (although Wade always does it in clutch). I can understand why people feel Bron is a better scorer, definately understand it, but I like the fact that Wade has proven he can beat teams with more than just his driving, whereas Bron is still inconsistent with his jumper and doesn't have a 2nd option to his driving.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 28 2006, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No it isn't, you were the one who brought that up. My arguement is he is more consistent from midrange, and you can see that watching the games. But yes, he would score more if he took more shots. It takes him a little less than 19FGA's per game to get 27.2PPG, whereas it takes Bron a little less than 24FGA's per game to get to 31.4PPG. That is 5 less FGA's per game, figure he makes 2 of those 5, and a free throw, he is at 32PPG. Both shoot at 51% from inside 3, and Bron takes many more 3's so his FG % is a little over 1% lower. That goes along with the smart factor.If you want some stats, look up the conference finals and Finals for Wade from midrange, then look at Bron vs Pistons in conference semi's (and even 1st round vs Wiz). Bron took more than half as many 3's as he did shots from 15ft-18ft, and that is the problem. He took 8 more close range shots in the Washington series, despite his teammates playing better in that series, and that series going only 6 games. That to me shows that when he is guarded by a great defender like Prince and great help D, that he has major trouble getting his points anywhere else. Wade took about half as many shots close to basket as Bron did against Pistons yet still had more PPG at a much higher %, especially from midrange. Bottom line I feel Wade has a midrange shot that he is very comfortable with to use if his driving is shutdown or limited. Bron doesn't have that go-to 2nd move if he doesn't have the driving lane as much as he is used to, and despite being a better shooter, taller, and more athletic, he doesn't have that go to 2nd option. Both are amazing at going to rim, and both can catch fire at any given time (although Wade always does it in clutch). I can understand why people feel Bron is a better scorer, definately understand it, but I like the fact that Wade has proven he can beat teams with more than just his driving, whereas Bron is still inconsistent with his jumper and doesn't have a 2nd option to his driving.</div>There you have it folks..the debate based on generalizations and what if's...Wade shoots a better percentage than Kobe who takes a million of shots...Wade shoots more, he's a better scorer. Conclusion: Dwyane > Kobe...??Then, you're going to go with Bron being inconsistent with his jumper when I posted the image...I don't know what else to say, man.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Sep 28 2006, 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There you have it folks..the debate based on generalizations and what if's...Wade shoots a better percentage than Kobe who takes a million of shots...Wade shoots more, he's a better scorer. Conclusion: Dwyane > Kobe...??Then, you're going to go with Bron being inconsistent with his jumper when I posted the image...I don't know what else to say, man.</div>No, you're totally missing my point. Kobe is a reliable scoring threat from anywhere, and I mean ANYWHERE on the floor. He is one of the best 3pt shooting top tier swingmen in league (although sometimes he takes some ridiculous 3's), a fnatastic midrange game with the best fadeaway since MJ, and of course with his athletic ability and size can get to rim almost at will and either get a foul called or finish it. Outside of maybe the driving, he is better in every category than Wade as a scorer, and can drop 40 on you whether he is forced to take jumpers or forced to drive. He can catch fire like no other in the league (well, AI and T-Mac are up there, too). LeBron is not the shooter Kobe is from anywhere on the floor, can't kill you from everywhere on the floor like Kobe can, and can't catch fire like Kobe can. And then I showed that when teams force Bron to take jumpers, he isn't as effective as Wade is when he is forced to take jumpers. Problem is that VERY few teams/players can force Bron to take jumpers, but they exist, and they have shown that they give Bron more problems than Wade who can score his 27PPG+ no matter the defense. I'd rather have the 27PPG on 50% shooting throughout regular season who can get his points by shooting or driving rather than the 31PPG on 48% guy through regular season who is more vulnerable to being held below his average. When the defense isn't allowing Wade to take shots, he doesn't force issue at rim, he takes the smarter midrange shot and makes it. Bron forces the issue, and either turns ball over or forces a tough shot, or he'll take a long fadeaway that isn't a smart shot. Instead of this he should be taking the easier 15-18ft jumpshot that he DOES have the ability to knock down consistently, but as you saw vs the Pistons, he chooses to make things more difficult than Wade. As MichaelBryant said, smarter scorer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 28 2006, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, you're totally missing my point. Kobe is a reliable scoring threat from anywhere, and I mean ANYWHERE on the floor. He is one of the best 3pt shooting top tier swingmen in league (although sometimes he takes some ridiculous 3's), a fnatastic midrange game with the best fadeaway since MJ, and of course with his athletic ability and size can get to rim almost at will and either get a foul called or finish it. Outside of maybe the driving, he is better in every category than Wade as a scorer, and can drop 40 on you whether he is forced to take jumpers or forced to drive. He can catch fire like no other in the league (well, AI and T-Mac are up there, too). LeBron is not the shooter Kobe is from anywhere on the floor, can't kill you from everywhere on the floor like Kobe can, and can't catch fire like Kobe can. And then I showed that when teams force Bron to take jumpers, he isn't as effective as Wade is when he is forced to take jumpers. Problem is that VERY few teams/players can force Bron to take jumpers, but they exist, and they have shown that they give Bron more problems than Wade who can score his 27PPG+ no matter the defense. I'd rather have the 27PPG on 50% shooting throughout regular season who can get his points by shooting or driving rather than the 31PPG on 48% guy through regular season who is more vulnerable to being held below his average. When the defense isn't allowing Wade to take shots, he doesn't force issue at rim, he takes the smarter midrange shot and makes it. Bron forces the issue, and either turns ball over or forces a tough shot, or he'll take a long fadeaway that isn't a smart shot. Instead of this he should be taking the easier 15-18ft jumpshot that he DOES have the ability to knock down consistently, but as you saw vs the Pistons, he chooses to make things more difficult than Wade. As MichaelBryant said, smarter scorer.</div>Oh jeez...then how is it that LeBron can be held below his average more but STILL AVERAGE MORE THAN DWYANE? You're using ONE situation in the playoffs which is ridiculous, you might as well call Jerome James a legitimate big man in the league. Then, you'll bring in turnovers when Wade averages more TO's and you forget how Bron plays the 1 for his team. 48% on 31 PPG or 27 on 50%...hard choice ..The logic is incoherent man, when you say one thing, another thing comes up and negates it. And for the last time..You cannot generalize and think someone is a better scorer simply from his 'tendecies'...not to mention Dwyane is around MUCH better players which makes it even easier for him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Sep 28 2006, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh jeez...then how is it that LeBron can be held below his average more but STILL AVERAGE MORE THAN DWYANE? You're using ONE situation in the playoffs which is ridiculous, you might as well call Jerome James a legitimate big man in the league. Then, you'll bring in turnovers when Wade averages more TO's and you forget how Bron plays the 1 for his team. 48% on 31 PPG or 27 on 50%...hard choice ..The logic is incoherent man, when you say one thing, another thing comes up and negates it. And for the last time..You cannot generalize and think someone is a better scorer simply from his 'tendecies'...not to mention Dwyane is around MUCH better players which makes it even easier for him.</div>Wade also switches as the PG for his team, and Bron this past season moved into more of a scorer role than playmaker. And it isn't just one situation where Bron has had trouble scoring against a defense that forces him to take jumpers....4/12 vs. Pistons- 22pts on 8/18 shooting. 2/26 & 2/27- 26pts on 9/22 shooting and 22pts on 9/20 shooting. Now look at one of those defenders I was talking about- Ron Artest: 3/1 vs Kings- 19pts on 7/21 shooting, November 24th vs Pacers- 19pts on 6/20 shooting. And you can bet your ass that it was because he was getting roughed up when going to hole and forced to take jumpers... Umm, yes it is a pretty hard choice, its only 4PPG difference, Wade has better FG %, smarter scorer, more clutch scorer, and has shown he can score even when his driving ability is somewhat taken away. He also rarely forces the issue, where Bron does against tough defense.It's all opinion, bro. I respect anyone who says Bron is a better scorer, I understand the logic, but I give Wade edge here. Both are 2 of the best players in league at going to basket, Bron is better shooter but takes stupid shots and doesn't have a consistent 2nd option to his driving. Wade, while not the shooter Bron is, knows his range, and takes advantage of it. The Pistons and Mavs series are great examples of this.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 28 2006, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wade also switches as the PG for his team, and Bron this past season moved into more of a scorer role than playmaker. And it isn't just one situation where Bron has had trouble scoring against a defense that forces him to take jumpers....4/12 vs. Pistons- 22pts on 8/18 shooting. 2/26 & 2/27- 26pts on 9/22 shooting and 22pts on 9/20 shooting. Now look at one of those defenders I was talking about- Ron Artest: 3/1 vs Kings- 19pts on 7/21 shooting, November 24th vs Pacers- 19pts on 6/20 shooting. And you can bet your ass that it was because he was getting roughed up when going to hole and forced to take jumpers... Umm, yes it is a pretty hard choice, its only 4PPG difference, Wade has better FG %, smarter scorer, more clutch scorer, and has shown he can score even when his driving ability is somewhat taken away. He also rarely forces the issue, where Bron does against tough defense.It's all opinion, bro. I respect anyone who says Bron is a better scorer, I understand the logic, but I give Wade edge here. Both are 2 of the best players in league at going to basket, Bron is better shooter but takes stupid shots and doesn't have a consistent 2nd option to his driving. Wade, while not the shooter Bron is, knows his range, and takes advantage of it. The Pistons and Mavs series are great examples of this.</div>Well no sh*t that you'll find some games that are under their averages after you dig for it, man, not EVERYONE can consistently put up 30+ on every given night..even Kobe - is he inconsistent now? ALL of it averages out to one thing...and that's the PPG...31 PPG > 27 PPG..problem solved.in the Pistons game...he played 31 minutes cause he went out with an injury in the 3rd...in those other ones..20+ PT's..but do you know what the sad thing is? He led his team in PTs in all of them. I'll join in too, though (although it doens't really prove anything):-4/22 against the Pistons, 13 PTs for Wade on 3/15 -1/13 against the Sonics, 15 Pts for Wade on 4/14-12/13 against the Bulls, 14 Pts for Wade on 6/17-12/23 aginast the Nets, 17 Pts for Wade on 4/20WOOPS, Wade you're inconsistent!Then, you're going to go to the 'forcing the issue'...I don't even know how to address it but look at the damn charts....he causes less turnovers while playing the point AND with less players to go to - but he forces the issue huh?
Don't know why you're still saying Wade is the better mid-range shooter when His Greatness showed you their regular season percentages. LeBron percentage is a few better from mid-range and he took about 30-40 more shots.....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Sep 28 2006, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well no sh*t that you'll find some games that are under their averages after you dig for it, man, not EVERYONE can consistently put up 30+ on every given night..even Kobe - is he inconsistent now? ALL of it averages out to one thing...and that's the PPG...31 PPG > 27 PPG..problem solved.in the Pistons game...he played 31 minutes cause he went out with an injury in the 3rd...in those other ones..20+ PT's..but do you know what the sad thing is? He led his team in PTs in all of them. I'll join in too, though (although it doens't really prove anything):-4/22 against the Pistons, 13 PTs for Wade on 3/15 -1/13 against the Sonics, 15 Pts for Wade on 4/14-12/13 against the Bulls, 14 Pts for Wade on 6/17-12/23 aginast the Nets, 17 Pts for Wade on 4/20WOOPS, Wade you're inconsistent!Then, you're going to go to the 'forcing the issue'...I don't even know how to address it but look at the damn charts....he causes less turnovers while playing the point AND with less players to go to - but he forces the issue huh?</div>You seriously don't take everything into account. Of course Bron averages more, Wade takes 5 less FGA's per game!!! Wade doesn't have to score 31PPG when he has the teammates he has, but he has shown with Shaq, without Shaq, and with unhealthy Shaq he can get 30PPG or more. He has the ability.Once again, totally missing the point. It wasn't to show Bron is inconsistent and Wade is consistent, it was to show that Wade has a far less tough time against teams that force him to take jumpers. If Wade dominated the Pistons in just about every game in playoffs and in season, then that shows it was just a bad game. Same with Nets and Sonics. Bulls are the one team that has always given Wade tons of trouble, but he rarely has needed to step up as up until the Ben Wallace signing, the Bulls have had no inside presence to stop Shaq. There is a pattern with LeBron against more than one opponent, and I feel I proved it. It isn't just a bad game vs the Pistons, it's just about every time they meet up. Same with Artest, and that pattern is he tends to force the issue with bad shots or unnecassary driving to basket and turning it over due to offensive foul or getting stuck and making bad pass. Just take a look at the Pistons series to see what I am talking about, stats or actually watching the games.He averaged over 5 TO's in the Wizards series and around 4.5 TO's against the Pistons. He tends to take bad shots when he gets frustrated and can't get to rim. Wade has shown that he is willing to take easier midrange shots to beat team, be patient and not turn it over. And again, both Bron and Wade play the point equally as much, and Wade averaged .1 more APG. Wade can get careless with the ball, but not nearly as much as Bron when he forces the issue and tries too much, as apparent in the playoffs. ASUFan- I keep saying Bron is better shooter, but Wade is more consistent in using his midrange game. Bron doesn't utilize the midrange game as much as he should, and takes some unnecasarily tough shots. Again, watch the Pistons series, when he could have taken the type of shots Wade took against the same team. And BTW, inside the 3pt line both shoot 51%.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 28 2006, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You seriously don't take everything into account. Of course Bron averages more, Wade takes 5 less FGA's per game!!! Wade doesn't have to score 31PPG when he has the teammates he has, but he has shown with Shaq, without Shaq, and with unhealthy Shaq he can get 30PPG or more. He has the ability.Once again, totally missing the point. It wasn't to show Bron is inconsistent and Wade is consistent, it was to show that Wade has a far less tough time against teams that force him to take jumpers. If Wade dominated the Pistons in just about every game in playoffs and in season, then that shows it was just a bad game. Same with Nets and Sonics. Bulls are the one team that has always given Wade tons of trouble, but he rarely has needed to step up as up until the Ben Wallace signing, the Bulls have had no inside presence to stop Shaq. There is a pattern with LeBron against more than one opponent, and I feel I proved it. It isn't just a bad game vs the Pistons, it's just about every time they meet up. Same with Artest, and that pattern is he tends to force the issue with bad shots or unnecassary driving to basket and turning it over due to offensive foul or getting stuck and making bad pass. Just take a look at the Pistons series to see what I am talking about, stats or actually watching the games.He averaged over 5 TO's in the Wizards series and around 4.5 TO's against the Pistons. He tends to take bad shots when he gets frustrated and can't get to rim. Wade has shown that he is willing to take easier midrange shots to beat team, be patient and not turn it over. And again, both Bron and Wade play the point equally as much, and Wade averaged .1 more APG. Wade can get careless with the ball, but not nearly as much as Bron when he forces the issue and tries too much, as apparent in the playoffs.</div>You're not proving anything but making excuses of specific predicaments. Blah blah blah...look at who Kobe has, no legitimate strong scorers same as LeBron but he's still regarded as the best scorer...Allen has 2 PPG less with another profilic scorer on the team, I don't suppose he's a better scorer than Kobe? But..its their tendecies and you somehow have their abilities and talents recorded on paper like a rating...face it, your argument is a verbatim based on situational and hypothetical predicament, such as Wade has supposedly "smarter" scoring mechanics because you somehow have the tendencies recorded..its like you simulate them...etc.etc. Thing is: That logic doesn't work. You can go on with whatever you want, abilies, tendencies, so on and so on..but everything is there written for you man..he scores more with a harder time..Dwyane scores less with a smoother time...the FG% is a huge result of the difficulty of the shot...guess what? Dwyane has a much better team so its all more spread out for him...James? Then, you're going to go into the playoffs...the playoffs don't make a player what he is and for someone who's been arguing consistency, its ridiculous that you're going to concentrate the debate rather'd on the post season over the model of consistency - 82 games...aka, the regular season.Its all there for you man, don't refuse the facts..if you're going to say Wade is a better scorer with "smarter shots" because of 4%..than Kobe Bryant is a worse scorer than both..the same logic applies..I know you're going to bring in tendencies of how "he doesn't do this " or the "versatility"..well, KG is the most versatile player in the league (arguable at least)...what's that in the other thread about Tim being better? How about Matrix - best SF, now? The # of options is capricious when it comes to scoring and the game in general...if you can't be stopped in one certain direction, than who's to take it away from you? If you're getting 100 PT's on driving and 45%, and that's all you can do..it still certifies you as a better scorer than someone who has "more options"...Versatility is a luxury, not a need..even so, I think Bron has more options, as you said..the 3 shot and the charts even show a better midrange - tendencies aren't in affect, look at the percentages for the answer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Sep 28 2006, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're not proving anything but making excuses of specific predicaments. Blah blah blah...look at who Kobe has, no legitimate strong scorers same as LeBron but he's still regarded as the best scorer...Allen has 2 PPG less with another profilic scorer on the team, I don't suppose he's a better scorer than Kobe? But..its their tendecies and you somehow have their abilities and talents recorded on paper like a rating...face it, your argument is a verbatim based on situational and hypothetical predicament, such as Wade has supposedly "smarter" scoring mechanics because you somehow have the tendencies recorded..its like you simulate them...etc.etc. Thing is: That logic doesn't work. You can go on with whatever you want, abilies, tendencies, so on and so on..but everything is there written for you man..he scores more with a harder time..Dwyane scores less with a smoother time...the FG% is a huge result of the difficulty of the shot...guess what? Dwyane has a much better team so its all more spread out for him...James? Then, you're going to go into the playoffs...the playoffs don't make a player what he is and for someone who's been arguing consistency, its ridiculous that you're going to concentrate the debate rather'd on the post season over the model of consistency - 82 games...aka, the regular season.Its all there for you man, don't refuse the facts..if you're going to say Wade is a better scorer with "smarter shots" because of 4%..than Kobe Bryant is a worse scorer than both..the same logic applies..I know you're going to bring in tendencies of how "he doesn't do this " or the "versatility"..well, KG is the most versatile player in the league (arguable at least)...what's that in the other thread about Tim being better? How about Matrix - best SF, now? The # of options is capricious when it comes to scoring and the game in general...if you can't be stopped in one certain direction, than who's to take it away from you? If you're getting 100 PT's on driving and 45%, and that's all you can do..it still certifies you as a better scorer than someone who has "more options"...Versatility is a luxury, not a need..even so, I think Bron has more options, as you said..the 3 shot and the charts even show a better midrange - tendencies aren't in affect, look at the percentages for the answer.</div>You're taking it out of context. Bottom line, Wade is more efficient of a scorer, and is less vulnerable than Bron is to getting slowed down a ton. That, along with the fact that both are very efficient, both are arguably the 2 best slashers in league, and neither are one of the better swingman jumpshooters in the league....makes me conclude that Wade is a better score. Bron is more talented, and to a degree more versatile, but Wade utitilizes what he has better and has shown it is harder to stop his scoring.You are correct, Wade does have a somewhat easier time, but watch a game, they both are usually played loosely and encouraged to take jumpshots rather than drive. Wade has shown when Shaq is not playing (he only played 59 games this year) he can get his points and at a high % (also see Wizards series in 2005 playoffs). He has shown when Shaq is playing well below his capabilities that he can take over and average 40PPG through a stretch of 4 games.The playoffs are what makes or breaks a players career....just ask KG or T-Mac. But look past that...in 82 games Wade averaged 27.2/6.7/5.7 on 50% shooting, despite injuries to team, coaching changes, etc... Both Bron and Wade have bad games, but the Pistons series especially just shows why I feel Wade is a better scorer. He may not be quite as versatile (but that difference is a lot smaller than your Kobe analogy) but he does what he does better than just about everyone in league. Again, these are totally different players. LeBron is nowhere near as versatile as Kobe and is not nearly as proven as a scorer, so using that arguement is garbage. The KG/TD debate is very similar to this debate....KG usually has much better statline, and usually gets it done with little where Duncan always has lots of help...yet I feel Duncan is better (not necassarily a better scorer, although I feel he is a better post player....another debate for another time). Why? He has rings, shown he comes up when it matters, shows he can lead a team, and has shown he can rise above his normal capabilities to win a series. KG still hasn't shown that, hasn't shown he can win the big game.Both shoot midrange jumpshot (not incluidng the area within 2-3ft by basket) at 39%. Bottom line is I feel Wade is better scorer because both are about equal as slashers, and while Bron is better shooter Wade utilizes his midrange game better. Therefor until Bron fixes that part of his game, he will always be vulnerable to teams/players that force him to take jumpshots. Sometimes he will get hot, but most of the time, as Pistons and Artest have shown, he won't be nearly as effective due to his immaturity, which he has drastically improved upon, and I am sure within a year or 2 will realize the midrange game is his friend. Wade gives that extra edge to his game, and considering he is just as efficent as Bron, and takes 5 less FGA's per game....I feel he is better scorer. Period. Scoring is much more than a season average of stats.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 28 2006, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bottom line is I feel Wade is better scorer because both are about equal as slashers, and while Bron is better shooter Wade utilizes his midrange game better.</div>Look at this and tell me who scores more in the mid range: Look at the blue on Dwyane and tell me who's more '"versatile" and who has "more options".First, it was the lack of scoring options, but now its who "utilizes" their shooting more. Then:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Bottom line, Wade is more efficient of a scorer, and is less vulnerable than Bron is to getting slowed down a ton.</div>But...wouldn't that go in the OVERALL SCORING OPTIONS? Or is it standard that you can generalize and see what'd happen if the same thing happens over and over.You're not getting your point through, man...Wilt got his points entirely from the post, but players who are more versatile...say - Elgin Baylor..can be considered better scorers? Why? Because they have more scoring options? Well, Stilt scored more. Less vulnerable? Why? Because Bron had a few games BELOW his average? WELL EVERYONE HAS! EVEN DWYANE, HE SUNK TO 13 PTS ONCE! God man, that's why its Any Given Day...on one day the Bobcats might beat the Spurs..etc.etc. It's not all standard. And using the "being played on the same coverage" isn't helping your argument when you bring in Artest into the debate and so on....it doesn't matter neither, off ball or on ball, it still helps him out a ton more than James. Then its the 5,6 game series that you used in your argument...which is ridicullous...playoffs don't prove everything, otherwise Jerome James can be considered good at the moment..point stands, REGULAR SEASON is where its done. And please, don't try using the ridiculous generalizations in your argument this time, man....tendencies aren't recorded, and you don't know how Dwyane would do with Lebron against...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 28 2006, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LoL yeah, but what bothers me is people always complaining about the calls Wade got in the Finals (which Bron also gets in playoffs/regular season too, so that's beside the point), yet if they called that travel the series could have went to 7 games, and in a game 7 anything can happen. Then you have people calling him clutch because of it, and it just bothers me considering all Wade has done, while Bron was widely considered a choker. A travel and easy GW in game 6=clutch? I don't think so.</div>How many FT did the heat have game 5 in the finals?What like 80+ THATS CRAZY! Wade had most of them!believe it or not thay is clutch just because it was a lil travle doesn't mean u take anything away from james what u want him to do tell the ref "no, no I travled man". LmaoWade is clutch u can say but rember teammates are VERY big these days and they make shots open for Wade you put wade on cleveland we would probley not make the playoffs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Sep 29 2006, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Look at this and tell me who scores more in the mid range: Look at the blue on Dwyane and tell me who's more '"versatile" and who has "more options".First, it was the lack of scoring options, but now its who "utilizes" their shooting more.</div>Do the math, both are 39%. And I said before Bron is more versatile as he is a better shooter, but he doesn't use his abilities as efficiently as Wade does. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You're not getting your point through, man...Wilt got his points entirely from the post, but players who are more versatile...say - Elgin Baylor..can be considered better scorers? Why? Because they have more scoring options? Well, Stilt scored more. Less vulnerable? Why? Because Bron had a few games BELOW his average? WELL EVERYONE HAS! EVEN DWYANE, HE SUNK TO 13 PTS ONCE! God man, that's why its Any Given Day...on one day the Bobcats might beat the Spurs..etc.etc. It's not all standard. And using the "being played on the same coverage" isn't helping your argument when you bring in Artest into the debate and so on....it doesn't matter neither, off ball or on ball, it still helps him out a ton more than James. Then its the 5,6 game series that you used in your argument...which is ridicullous...playoffs don't prove everything, otherwise Jerome James can be considered good at the moment..point stands, REGULAR SEASON is where its done. And please, don't try using the ridiculous generalizations in your argument this time, man....tendencies aren't recorded, and you don't know how Dwyane would do with Lebron against...</div>Again, totally different. Wade is JUST AS EFFICIENT AS LEBRON FROM INSIDE 3PT LINE!!!! It is NOTHING like Elgin Baylor and Wilt!It's not the fact that he had a few games under his average, but the pattern he followed in doing it. Pistons, and as I showed defenders like Artest, have shown Bron's weakness. They tried to do same to Wade and he burned them, he shot half as many shots close to basket and many more from midrange...guess what? He averaged 30PPG on 70% shooting through first 5 game against Pistons, and last game he was sick and didn't play 4th but still averaged 27PPG on over 60% shooting. Just because Bron is a better shooter doesn't mean he utlizes it as well as Wade and doesn't know his bread and butter, and to me that effects this arguement greatly and is shown in Pistons series.Artest is too big to play Wade, but Wade still has to face defenders like Kobe, Kidd, Hinrich, etc... They play different positions, so they face different defenders. Both are generally single covered and allowed to take jumpshots outside of 15-18ft, again, can be seen in Pistons series. Wanna know why his teammates played so horribly? Because Bron couldn't get his points despite for most of time being single covered by Prince. Wade was getting his points and killing the Pistons, and it opened up things for the role players. Seattle faced the fuc*king Sacramento Kings when Jerome had his great series, one of the softest teams, inside and out, at the time. He was reduced back to mediocrity against the Spurs. Wade totally sh*t on arguably the best defensive team in league, and did it on biggest stage...the Finals. He has done it his whole career in playoffs. Playoffs make or break careers, defenses are tougher and games are tougher. Pistons exploited Bron's weaknesses and it worked. They tried to make Wade be a jumpshooter and it backfired. Same exact thing could be seen in regular season. And you make it seem like Wade isn't anything special....27/6.7/5.7is probably best statline in the league next to Bron, and he is quite consistent. What you saw in the playoffs from both these players is what you saw in season (well, except Wade's bad game against Mavs), it wasn't no surprise that Bron was held to 26PPG on 44% shooting and near 5 TO's against Pistons, or how Wade exploded against them. And you don't know if LeBron would have averaged 40PPG including all those clutch shots against the Mavs in games 2-6 en route to a championship. You don't know he would have had 30PPG on 70% shooting agains the Pistons, especially considering he would have still had the same defender on him as he did in the semi's in Prince, and still would have been forced to take jumpers. No one knows, "if..." arguements like that are useless. I am speaking facts, and forming opinions based on what I see on stat sheet and in game. Facts don't tell whole story, you also have to watch the games and take them into context....you just look at stats, and don't even take into account post season, so there is no use of arguing this with you.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Again, totally different. Wade is JUST AS EFFICIENT AS LEBRON FROM INSIDE 3PT LINE!!!! It is NOTHING like Elgin Baylor and Wilt!</div>Holy sh*t, do I need to spell it out for you man? OUTSIDE THE 3PT LINE STILL TAKES IN ACCOUNTS FOR PART OF THE GAME...not only does James score more from the Mid Range but he BLOWS Dwyane away from the outside and scores 10x more than he does from there..only adding more to the arsenal.Its so damn ignorant that you're using ONE TIME situations to argue this for you, things that happen only a handful of times during the season..all that "held below his average" sh*t..look at the damn SEASON AVERAGES SUMMED UP - 31 PPG, 27 PPG, end of story. The playoffs is just a visual compared to the size of the regular season and how much consistency it proves. sh*t - bring in the playoffs...and Lebron STILL SCORED MORE...bring in the goddamn pistons series where LeBron's teammates were shut down and Wade put up a mere .1 more...injuries, excuses, blah blah blah..<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Wanna know why his teammates played so horribly? Because Bron couldn't get his points despite for most of time being single covered by Prince. Wade</div>Wtf? WTF DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE REST OF HIS TEAMMATES WHEN LEBRON IS BEING SINGLE-GODAMMNED-COVERED???? Jesus Christ, did you read what you just put? What is Tayshaun deflecting every goddamn pass that he couldn't do sh*t? The game starts with your damn teammates and if you're teammates can't even cater for their godamned selves than the person is going to have to "force up" those bad shots and the turnovers are inevitable. But you know what else? Since evidently the playoffs are "exactly" what you say from what they did in the regular season...THEN WHY DIDN'T WADE BLOW UP IN THE REGULAR SEASON? Forget that though.....Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe..both faced the same defense in the playoffs...who scored more? NOWITZKI!!!You know what else? Chauncey Billups is a better scorer than Kobe, too! Why? In the regular season, Kobe put up an average of 29 against Memphis, Chauncey - 34...yep, Billups is a better scorer, despite the fact that this is one team, this is handful of games and that everything else is just ignored here - Chauncey > Kobe at scoring.... :rock: And yeah, Bryant put up 27 PPG in the playoffs, the 35 PPG in the regular season was just an illusion because what you see in 7 to 23 games in the playoffs overrules everything.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>it wasn't no surprise that Bron was held to 26PPG on 44% shooting and near 5 TO's against Pistons, or how Wade exploded against them.</div>Lebron averages 35/7/8 agains the bulls (season)Wade averages 12/5/4 against the bulls 24% shooting (season)He also shot something like 44% agains the bulls in the playoffsWhat does that prove? absolutely nothing just like your quote. All it shows is that some teams/players can guard players better. In this case the bulls shut down wade.
[quote name='His Greatness' post='166893' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:33 AM']Holy sh*t, do I need to spell it out for you man? OUTSIDE THE 3PT LINE STILL TAKES IN ACCOUNTS FOR PART OF THE GAME...not only does James score more from the Mid Range but he BLOWS Dwyane away from the outside and scores 10x more than he does from there..only adding more to the arsenal.Its so damn ignorant that you're using ONE TIME situations to argue this for you, things that happen only a handful of times during the season..all that "held below his average" sh*t..look at the damn SEASON AVERAGES SUMMED UP - 31 PPG, 27 PPG, end of story. The playoffs is just a visual compared to the size of the regular season and how much consistency it proves. sh*t - bring in the playoffs...and Lebron STILL SCORED MORE...bring in the goddamn pistons series where LeBron's teammates were shut down and Wade put up a mere .1 more...injuries, excuses, blah blah blah..[/quote]It is taken into account, and I keep saying Bron is a better shooter. But he is not Kobe, he is not T-Mac, and he is damn sure not a Ray Allen or Michael Redd from 3. He isn't nearly consistent enough or dangerous enough from behind the 3 for me to give him a huge edge there, it ends up hurting his efficiency and he is not as dangerous as a Kobe from 3. In season and in playoffs he is given the 3 and is loosely played, while players like Kobe are smothered from 25ft out.It's NOT one time situations, it's a trend that goes happens to Bron in season and playoffs. It doesn't have to do with the fact that he has trouble with Pistons or players like Ron Artest (which I have proven he does), but HOW it happens. When his driving is cut off and made much harder, and is forced to take jumpshots, he doesn't do nearly as well as Wade in the same situation. Period. That is proven time and time again. And what does PPG mean when you shoot it nearly 20% lower (Pistons series)? Wade is a more efficient scorer, and has shown when Shaq is unhealthy or not playing he can put up 30PPG+ (Washington series, Mavs series, in season where Shaq didn't play 22 games, etc...). Look past the PPG, take a look at other stats, take a look at the games, and you will see what I mean. And again, Wade is JUST AS CONSISTENT AS BRON, he shoot the SAME percentage from midrange Bron does, and overall shoots a better % from the field and line. He is a more efficient player, and ha sshown when driving is taken away he can still score up to his capabilities, where Bron can't! Take a look at the NBA Finals, Shaq was putting up 7PPG lower than his average, and all the role players were under average. Wade stepped up for 40PPG through games 2-6 en route to a championship, don't tell me he needs to force up bad shots if his teammates aren't playing up to par. He had the midrange shot if he wanted it, and instead took extremely difficult fadeaways from 20-25ft out or drove it into 4 man collpases, which caused turnovers. He made it harder for himself than necassary. Wade was at 27/7/6 in regular seaosn on 50% shooting...I consider that a breakout year, and overall those stats are in the elite. And he also blew up in season, take a look at the Pistons game back in either January or February (I forget) for example....Once again, you are using analogies that have NOTHING in common with this debate. Kobe dropped 40PPG against Suns in season and it didn't work. He started to pass a lot more in playoffs and they started winning. But when his teammates were faltering he put up 50 against Suns in game 6, and had 2 buzzer beaters in game 4. Bron's only good games in the Pistons series were when his teammates were playing well and he was freed up, NOT the other way around. Once again, analogies that have nothing to do with the debate. It isn't about who puts up what against whatever team, it is why. It is a trend with Bron that shows he cannot use a midrange jumpshot as his #1 option for scoring, while Wade has shown that. Therefor, along with their equal driving ability, and the fact that Bron's 3pt shooting at time hurts his scoring and efficiency as a whole (he is NOT a very good 3pt shooter, average at BEST), I feel Wade is a better scorer.I am done with this scoring arguement as it is senseless as we both have V-E-R-Y different POV's of what makes a great scorer. I understand why you say LeBron is better, he is more versatile in terms of what he has in his arsenal, and something you didn't bring up is he is bigger than Wade which allows him to finish off plays a bit more often at basket. But I personally prefer that Wade has proven he can get his points, and at a good % when he is forced to take jumpshots, while Bron is a bit more wild and doesn't stay within his range and is not as proven when forced away from basket. That to me, along with the fact that both are very efficient on a regular basis, and the fact that Wade can get just as hot/hotter than Bron (and at right time), is why I prefer Wade as a scorer. Again, I completely comprehend everything you are saying, but I just have a totally different view on what makes a better scorer.melo-They play different positions, Bron is not guarded by a player like Hinirch like Wade is. The Pistons and Ron thing just show that Bron has trouble when he is forced to take jumpshots moreso than driving, and the stats prove that. Wade doesn't have that type of vulnerability in his game in the sense that when he is forced to take jumpshots he struggles heavily. The Bulls give Wade problems because they are athletic and tough enough to stop driving while getting hand in his face on jumpshots, not because one part of his game isn't up to par with the other parts of his game. Bron has that same weakness that Wade does, that they don't have the jumpshots to beat teams when they are closely guarded away from basket like a player like Kobe or T-Mac can (although Wade didn't play that badly all around in the Bulls series). But against Pistons when Bron wasn't air-tght covered from outside, Bron was very poor from line, very poor from midrange, and forced up bad shots when he could have gotten easier shots from a few feet closer without the fadeaway. Wade proved he can score when forced to take jumpers, and proved not just in that one series alone that he can get it done from midrange if driving ability is taken away.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Sep 28 2006, 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There you have it folks..the debate based on generalizations and what if's....</div>No disrespect Nitro but I agree with His Greatness, most of your arguments are based on if's, but's and depends..........llol
Oh my god man..if you're going to keep encinuating the same verbatim with total neglection to my debate than I'm not even going to do this with you, Nitro...despite you saying you "comprehend it"...it seems as if you don't.To start off - where is it applied that LeBron is somehow even a significant three shooter? Its not. But this is a <u>one-on-one</u> comparison, and when someone who can hit the three and does it on a perpetual basis (once again, you don't need to be a Korver to have an huge edge on someone)..than he stilll has that huge advantage. Wade sucks at three shooting and barely does it...Bron? Nah. But he doesn't use it? Oh come one..you don't watch every Cavs game and neither do I..but you don't have his tendencies recorded..but hey, look for yourself11/5- Against the Grizzlies who I think you can call a solid defensive team (1st in the L last year I believe)...10 PTs from driving/inside...but what did he do when he was getting put at 45% at that area? Hits the threes on 4/9...the 9 other PTs gained from the midrange..finishes the day with 36 PTs, 48%...solid..against Shane. 11/26- Against another beast defense in the Timberwolves (8th)...36% in the inside/driving with 8 PTs...what does he do? goes 54% on the threes with 6 of them..finishes the day with 38..and that's with Larry and Zydrunas going 18%, 12 PTs. and 20%, 9 PTs...1/5- Against the Rockets who are ranked 4th...4 points from the inside/driving....16 entirely from the midrange...three 3's..finishes the day on 68% and 32 PTs..1/21- Against the Jazz and AK47 (one of the best defenders in the league guarding him)...blows up for 51 PTs, 16 from the inside/drive...9 from the freethrows....the rest are outside and mirange shots. (......bleh, screw the rest of the season, I'll add more later) BUT...its all a trend...that he doesn't do a certain thing against good defensive teams and players..right? Read down your argument and look at the glaring flaws - all the "he can't do this or do that" are strictly tendencies that YOU think..not making it "facts"..you can't prove it, you haven't and all the while now you've just said it...when in fact James takes MUCH more outside shots than Dwyane AND 'turns the ball over' less, good defensive teams or not, its any given day. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He had the midrange shot if he wanted it</div>Uh...how...in..the..world..is..he..going..to..have..any..shot..he..wants..when the defense is smothering him AND HIS TEAM??? Are you like ignoring the basic decrees of how the game works, or something? When you're team is not creating anything, there is no chemistry resulting in terrible performance overall. It was not his fault. And aren't 20 footers CONSIDERED mid-range?And here's some more to discredit more of your allegations...Bron shot 70% overall from inside and driving in that Pistons series..and those midranges he was pretty much smothered...one player can only do so much and you can't keep forcing the same driving against a Detroit defense..Bron put up a reasonable amount of J's and got smothered...putting Nitro even at a more unreliable state. I didn't say anything about a breakout, I said a blow-up..like he did in the playoffs...and using the Pistons as the standard comparison is ridiculous, too..newsflash, THEY'RE ONE TEAM. And again, ONE DEFENSE, or two defenses OR THE WHOLE LEAGUE..it doesn't matter, 31 PPG is 31 PPG and 27 is 27 no matter how much you take away from it..some players do better against some and others do better against others...its any given day man...and you know what else to add on to it? Bron's Cavs played a harder schedule than the Heat and James STILL scored more. Then you'll say:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And he also blew up in season, take a look at the <u>Pistons </u>game back in either January or February</div>If using the Pistons as a team for a standard..then HOW DOES THE KOBE-DIRK VS. SUNS ANALOGY NOT WORK??? Its the same god damn logic!!! Now I imagine you're going to come up with some more BS like "No, but look at the other teams Wade played with good defenses!! etc. etc."...Save yourself the time before you do it and press backspace....a season is a season, a team is a team, good defenses or bad defenses, I'm sure you can dig up and find out how Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe because Kobe played worse defenses (or better)...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It isn't about who puts up what against whatever team, it is why.</div>You see this, everyone? You see this? Implying that he'd rather'd have a versatile scorer (it is why) when he's already OPENLY ADMITTED THAN BRON WAS THE MORE VERSATILE SCORER than someone who can get it done..he says Wade has proven that he can show another scoring option (the midrange) as his #1...but LeBron can't....but he's also said that Bron was the better shooter...and then he completely dials out LeBron's three shooting by addressing it with "he's an average shooter at best"...well he shoots 33% which is up to par with every other elite scorer..not to mention its a ONE ON ONE comparison on strictly scoring in which threes are recorded and counted regardless of how "good" or "bad" you are..but, yeah man, I guess you'd take Elgin over Wilt, too...Wilt had ONE way of scoring and that ONE way of scoring was unstoppable...I guess Elgin was a better scorer..because he can do it so many ways. You're zoning out, man...you're shifting into the point where your entire debate is on tendencies and generalizations...all of which you can't prove...which is why I see he opted out of the debate.
