Despite both of this guys being tremendously talented and beside them being great leaders, there is oen thing that sets them apart and that is the will to win. Wade has developed that sence of winning and has ffound out how to win better than James has. In addition I think Wade is also a more talented player. He has a better midrange jumpshot than Lebron, better 1on1 defense that is staying infront of his defender, and I think hes better at getting his teammates involved. They are both great player, but Wade being slightly better
WADE!!! all day everyday.hes better all around..idc how athletic bron bron iz..wade wins and iz a team player, except 4 in the 4th quarter lol thats his time..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Feb 12 2006, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah I would go with Wade also. Unfortunately for Wade they put the wrong players around him this year. A bad chemistry mix of Walker, Payton, Jason Williams, and Posey is no Eddie Jones.</div>I just peeked into this thread and saw this post. I wonder what happened with them?
I love 'em both... Hard to pick one... I'll go with Wade, because I was slightly more impressed with his game his rookie season, than I was with James'...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tmgbball15 @ Nov 7 2006, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Despite both of this guys being tremendously talented and beside them being great leaders, there is oen thing that sets them apart and that is the will to win. Wade has developed that sence of winning and has ffound out how to win better than James has.</div>I dunno about that. When can we say that a player has a will to win? LeBron managed to push his team to the brink of eliminating Detroit in the playoffs. And that was with much less help than D-Wade had with him. Cleveland has no real point guard (not a diss to Eric Snow, but having Jason Williams and Gary Payton is MUCH better) and even if you're a Cleveland fan or not a fan of Shaq you have to admit that having Shaquille O'Neal and Alonzo Mourning is better than Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Anderson Varejao. In other positions I think they're more evenly balanced teams (Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden and Donyell Marshall compared to Udonis Haslem, James Posey, Antoine Walker... though after writing down THAT comparison I'd rather have Hughes/Gooden/Marshall over Haslem/Walker/Posey...).The fact is Wade led a very good team over the Mavs in the Finals, that much is apparent. But would LeBron have been able to do the same with Shaq behind him? Needless to say Ilgauskas doesn't draw defenders like Shaq does. Besides that Cleveland doesn't have defenders like Posey and Haslem to stifle players like Dirk Nowitzki, which was also critical in the Finals run.My breakdown of comparing these two is to look at their positions. Is LeBron James the best small forward in the league? I daresay that despite some issues on defense I'd have to say yes, though with players like Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady, Shawn Marion, and Carmelo Anthony in the league it's not as easy a pick as it sounds. Is Dwayne Wade the best shooting guard in the league? Well, only if you live in a magical imaginary world where you deny the existance of Los Angeles all together. Sorry, but even as a Heat fan I'd have to admit that Kobe Bryant has a slight edge over D-Wade. They're both amazing scorers who can take over a game, but Bryant's shot is just more dependable. In the future Wade will take the mantle, but he doesn't have it yet.The impact LeBron and D-Wade have on their teams are similiar, but even their roles on their teams aren't the same. Wade may be the face of the Heat, but he's surrounded by proven veterans and has a vocal leader in Shaquille O'Neal to carry some of the pressure in that situation. Wade is THE MAN in Miami, but has a lot of help in that locker room. LeBron is the man and sole leader in Cleveland. Right now Wade has more accomplisments to his belt, but I still have to give the slight edge to LeBron. The Cavs are definitely more built for the future and should have success longer than the current Heat team (unless Riley pulls more rabbits out of his hat to build on the fly when his veterens retire).So my recommendation to Dwayne Wade? After his current contract when the Heat will probably be in a rebuilding phase, he should sign a deal (if he's smart he'll not look for a max deal, I've always been a proponent of players taking LESS money to give their teams a better chance of success) in either Cleveland or Denver (if Carmelo is still there).That'd be sick.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falconman1130 @ Nov 13 2006, 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I dunno about that. When can we say that a player has a will to win? LeBron managed to push his team to the brink of eliminating Detroit in the playoffs. And that was with much less help than D-Wade had with him. Cleveland has no real point guard (not a diss to Eric Snow, but having Jason Williams and Gary Payton is MUCH better) and even if you're a Cleveland fan or not a fan of Shaq you have to admit that having Shaquille O'Neal and Alonzo Mourning is better than Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Anderson Varejao. In other positions I think they're more evenly balanced teams (Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden and Donyell Marshall compared to Udonis Haslem, James Posey, Antoine Walker... though after writing down THAT comparison I'd rather have Hughes/Gooden/Marshall over Haslem/Walker/Posey...).The fact is Wade led a very good team over the Mavs in the Finals, that much is apparent. But would LeBron have been able to do the same with Shaq behind him? Needless to say Ilgauskas doesn't draw defenders like Shaq does. Besides that Cleveland doesn't have defenders like Posey and Haslem to stifle players like Dirk Nowitzki, which was also critical in the Finals run.</div>I know this was directed at someone else, but I have to chime in:You can play the, "What if Bron was on the Heat with Shaq?" scenario all you want. But in Finals, with Shaq going for 14PPG and everyone outsid eof Antoine Walker down in stats, do you really feel Bron could have put up 40PPG through 4 games, hitting a game winner, game tier, game winning assist, game saving steal, and game sealing free throws like Wade did? History tells us no. Wade has done things like that since college with Marquette, while Bron didn't start to hit GW shots until the 2nd half of his 3rd year (and the Wizards GW shots definately have some controversy around them). Don't forget, Wade also had to deal with coaching changes, Shaq out for 30 games, other players like Williams hurt a lot, and a team with little to no chemistry until 2nd round of playoffs. He carried that team with 27/7/6 on near 50% shooting. His 17 straight points vs Pistons in season, including GW was the turnaround for the Heat. Before that they were like 1-11 against division leaders.And that Heat team to begin with had less firepower and such than the Mavs, and with his teammate snot performing well he raised his game a ton. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>My breakdown of comparing these two is to look at their positions. Is LeBron James the best small forward in the league? I daresay that despite some issues on defense I'd have to say yes, though with players like Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady, Shawn Marion, and Carmelo Anthony in the league it's not as easy a pick as it sounds. Is Dwayne Wade the best shooting guard in the league? Well, only if you live in a magical imaginary world where you deny the existance of Los Angeles all together. Sorry, but even as a Heat fan I'd have to admit that Kobe Bryant has a slight edge over D-Wade. They're both amazing scorers who can take over a game, but Bryant's shot is just more dependable. In the future Wade will take the mantle, but he doesn't have it yet.</div>That's unfair though, as if Bron played SG he also wouldn't be better than Kobe. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The impact LeBron and D-Wade have on their teams are similiar, but even their roles on their teams aren't the same. Wade may be the face of the Heat, but he's surrounded by proven veterans and has a vocal leader in Shaquille O'Neal to carry some of the pressure in that situation. Wade is THE MAN in Miami, but has a lot of help in that locker room. LeBron is the man and sole leader in Cleveland.</div>Wade was forced at many times to carry his team to wins, whether it be in college, in rookie year, or this past year. Neither are huge leaders vocally, although Bron has more of that role in Cleveland than Wade does in Miami. But while Wade has always had more help, he has also always been to at least the 2nd round of playoffs each of his 3 years, went to ECF once, and won a ring and finals MVP, whereas Bron didn't get his team anywhere until this past season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Nov 13 2006, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I know this was directed at someone else, but I have to chime in:You can play the, "What if Bron was on the Heat with Shaq?" scenario all you want. But in Finals, with Shaq going for 14PPG and everyone outsid eof Antoine Walker down in stats, do you really feel Bron could have put up 40PPG through 4 games, hitting a game winner, game tier, game winning assist, game saving steal, and game sealing free throws like Wade did? History tells us no. Wade has done things like that since college with Marquette, while Bron didn't start to hit GW shots until the 2nd half of his 3rd year (and the Wizards GW shots definately have some controversy around them). Don't forget, Wade also had to deal with coaching changes, Shaq out for 30 games, other players like Williams hurt a lot, and a team with little to no chemistry until 2nd round of playoffs. He carried that team with 27/7/6 on near 50% shooting. His 17 straight points vs Pistons in season, including GW was the turnaround for the Heat. Before that they were like 1-11 against division leaders.</div>Stats don't tell the whole story though. Yes Shaq had a sub-par (for Shaq) Finals series. But a player's impact is always more than stats can tell. Shaq gets double/tripled teamed all the time! Even though it's not as quick or prevalent as it used to be he still draws more defenders than anyone. That sort of attention frees up his teammates.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falconman1130 @ Nov 13 2006, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Stats don't tell the whole story though. Yes Shaq had a sub-par (for Shaq) Finals series. But a player's impact is always more than stats can tell. Shaq gets double/tripled teamed all the time! Even though it's not as quick or prevalent as it used to be he still draws more defenders than anyone. That sort of attention frees up his teammates.</div>Wade was the one getting double and triple teamed in that series, not Shaq. For the most part, Shaq was played pretty straight up. He was still efficient, but at same time was taken out of game. Against a high octane offense that the Mavs have, 14PPG is NOT enough for a 2nd option. One game he scored only 5 and was outplayed by Erik Dampier! Wade was the one who attracted far more attention, especially through games 3-6 when he was scoring 40PPG. Hell, in game 5 Wade broke a triple team to get to basket, where he ended up at line (infamous Josh Howard timeout). And don't forget, Shaq missed a TON of games during the season, and Wade still had 27PPG/6.6APG on 50% shooting. Or how about when Wade put up 31/8/7 on 54% shooting against Larry Hughes and the Wizards when Shaq missed 2 games in the series? Shaq is definately nice to have, and does free stuff up, but Wade still gets doubled, he gets more attention than Shaq, and he is the #1 target for defenses rather than Shaq.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Wade was forced at many times to carry his team to wins, whether it be in college, in rookie year, or this past year. Neither are huge leaders vocally, although Bron has more of that role in Cleveland than Wade does in Miami. But while Wade has always had more help, he has also always been to at least the 2nd round of playoffs each of his 3 years, went to ECF once, and won a ring and finals MVP, whereas Bron didn't get his team anywhere until this past season.</div>The keywords in that paragraph were "but while Wade has always had more help." Michael Jordan didn't even get to the second round of the playoffs until his fourth year in the league, what am I saying by that? It takes more than one person to win games. But if you want to talk about winning games, LeBron James was drafted by a team that went 17-65 in the season right before they got him. You want LeBron (who just came out of high school mind you) to take that type of team to the second round of the playoffs right away? That is crazy. LeBron has improved every year greatly in all areas of his game (just look at his stats from his past three years if you don't believe me). LeBron has out performed every kid coming out of high school and into the NBA (that includes Kobe, T-Mac, and KG). LeBron has out performed Wade (in stats) and he has had less to work with. Wade has never had to get a team to the playoffs by himself. LeBron James had to basically. I know I said up above that you can't win games by yourself, and I am not saying LeBron did, but I am saying that the Cavs would still be in the bottom of the league if it wasn't for LeBron. LeBron didn't have the type of players to get him into the playoffs last year. You want to say Z? Well Z was there the last time they made it to the playoffs, he was a rookie, that was almost ten years ago, so you can't say Z. Larry Hughes? Larry Hughes broke his finger in the preseason and was out until the last month or two of the regular seseason, he even admitted to not being 100% in the playoffs, and then in the playoffs his brother died. So you can't say Hughes (by the way they brought in Hughes to be the player to help them get into the playoffs, James didn't even need him to get to the playoffs). Who else are you going to say?James can do everything, he can post up or play outside. He can play point. Yes, he is actually a good defender in an overall sense. What he isn't good at is on ball defense (which some people tend to think that on ball defense is all defense is) and he can be shaky with his post defense.So what I am saying is, I would rather have LeBron than Wade. But do I think less of some one because they think Wade is better? No, there are different people that are better for different situations. So I have respect for the opinion of Wade being better than LeBron and I do understand it, I just don't agree with it.
Nitro, do you know how many times shaq was gettin doubled? I remember once, they threw 3 players at shaq. It was the worst stragety I've ever seen.Also, it doesn't help that the mavs weren't able to guard wade like haslem and posey did with dirk.
[quote name='drake24' post='202139' date='Nov 19 2006, 04:37 PM']The keywords in that paragraph were "but while Wade has always had more help." Michael Jordan didn't even get to the second round of the playoffs until his fourth year in the league, what am I saying by that? It takes more than one person to win games. But if you want to talk about winning games, LeBron James was drafted by a team that went 17-65 in the season right before they got him. You want LeBron (who just came out of high school mind you) to take that type of team to the second round of the playoffs right away? That is crazy. LeBron has improved every year greatly in all areas of his game (just look at his stats from his past three years if you don't believe me).[/quote]MJ was in a MUCH tougher league with no 2nd option for quite awhile. Bron had 15/8 Z and 16/11 Boozer. Do I blame them not getting into playoffs because of Bron? Of course not, he was a rookie and was expected to lead his team. He also didn't have the greatest role players in the world. But do I give Wade a LOT of credit for leading his team in playoffs as rookie, hitting GW's, and getting team to 2nd round and almost stunning the 60+ win Pacers? Yep. He was incredible in playoffs.Now in 2004-2005 I DO give Bron a lot of heat. At one point they were 30-20, he had a better supporting cast than previous year....and they ended up not in playoffs and only 2 games over .500. Yes, Bron's teammates somewhat shutdown and failed him, but when a team goes 12-20 to end season the bulk of the blame goes on the superstar. Wade carried team through playoffs, and if it wasn't for HIS injury they would have likely went to the Finals. Of course Bron outperformed Wade in stats with less of a team. Bron was leader of team and expected to be the best since his rookie year, and averaged 20/5/5, with 40MPG in rookie year. Wade, expected to be at most 3rd option to Lamar and Caron, and averaging only 35MPG, he put up 16/5/4. Wade puts up fantastic stats as well (04-05- 24/7/5 on 48% shooting to 27/7/7 on 47% shooting, 05/06- 27/7/6 on 50% to 32/7/7 on 48% shooting). For overall stats, no one except KG and Marion comes close to these 2 guys.Bron had more than enough players last season to get into playoffs. He had a Hughes that was putting up 16/5/4 for first 3rd of the season, Z who is one of the better centers in the league, Gooden who is a very solid PF, a good veteran and defensive PG in Snow, and good role players like Marshall, Varejao, Jones, etc... In a weak Eastern Conference, that is more than enough. Everything can be said about Wade, too. Same here. I understand why people say Bron is better, I disagree.
The reality is that the only reason that this is even a debate is the fact that heat/shaq fans are a vocal minority. Also, people who believe that Darko Millicic is better than Lebron (I'm exaggerating) because he has a championship are a vocal minority. If Lebron had that sicko supporting cast of course he'd have done as well. Lebron is a better scorer, passer, and rebounder than wade. The only advantage wade has is defense. Lebron had only 2 less wins with a way weaker supporting cast, and then took detroit to an extremely heated seven games when he was supposed to get swept. Almost winning when you're supposed to get swept is a lot more of an accomplishment than winning it all when everybody picked you to win it all before the season.
Again, wade can be argued as a better scorer and playmaker. Wade is easily better defender (ya know, half the game) and clutch player.Wade had to deal with various injuries, Shaq hurt for nearly 30 game s(and never truly healthy all year), coaching change (from coach he had for over 2 years to a HoF in pat Riley), etc... He turned around the season with his performance against Detroit. In playoffs he put up 30PPG on 70% shooting against Pistons through first 5 games (game 6 he was sick and didn't play 4th so his stats went down), and put up 40PPG through 4 straight games against Mavs, including few GW's/game winning passes/game saving steal. All this while Shaq was averaging 14PPG, and everyone else outside of Walker below season averages against a deeper and overall better Mavs team. Do I think Bron could have done that? No, so I don't think he would have won a ring with the Heat last year if put in same situation, especially in Finals.
yeah, but that championship was a perfect storm, Bell's injury, Detroit's collapse, Dallas' collapse, etc
Detroit's collapse started before the playoffs, though. So saying Cleveland almost upset them isn't too impressive since a sweep really wasn't that probable. But I don't think bron could have shot nearly 70% against Tayshaun Prince like Wade did to the Pistons guards, which means the teammates wouldn't have been as big of a factor, which was so important in the ECF. Therefor, they may not even have gotten past Detroit had Bron been on the team. Nothing he has done gives me the indication he could do what Wade did in Finals.
I think there is no question it's Lebron. And I am tired of people all saying Wade is better he won finals MVP bla bla bla.If Lebron played with Shaq he would have won a title also. And Shaq is old yes, but his presence still makes a big diff. And Wade also got Williams, Posey, ect..............Lebron can play SF, SG, PG he can do w/eWade is better at DBut I still am tired of people who actually say Wade.
