Who is the better player? Hoping to get a good debate out of this one. I will join in later on. I just wanna see what you guys think.
Um...obviously LeBron James...No debate here.LeBron 31/7/6.5 29.3 efficiency ratingMcGrady 25.5/7/5 21.4 effciency ratingLeBron plays every game, he doesn't get injured half as often, it's clear to me LeBron is better.
And when has LeBron hit a game winner in the playoffs? When has LeBron ever been clutch? When has he every played good defense and shutdown one of the hardest covers in the league for 7 straight games? When has LeBron carried a crap team to the playoffs by averaging the most points in a seaosn since MJ? When has LeBron scored over 60 points? When has LeBron EVER beat a team practically on his own and made clutch shot after clutch shot?All of those things T-Mac has done. T-Mac is proven. This year he has been hurt, but in past years, he has scored over 30 when need be, averaged 6 assists when need be, played defense against the other teams best player in the playoffs, carried a terrible Magic team to the playoffs for 2-3 straight year, brought 2 great teams (Mavs and Pistons) to game 7's practically on his own, a VERY underrated player in the clutch, and is still probably the best pure scorer in the league when healthy. This year he hasn't been healthy, but for the past4-5 years, he has been the league's most dangerous scorer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 14 2006, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And when has LeBron hit a game winner in the playoffs? When has LeBron ever been clutch? When has he every played good defense and shutdown one of the hardest covers in the league for 7 straight games? When has LeBron carried a crap team to the playoffs by averaging the most points in a seaosn since MJ? When has LeBron scored over 60 points? When has LeBron EVER beat a team practically on his own and made clutch shot after clutch shot?All of those things T-Mac has done. T-Mac is proven. This year he has been hurt, but in past years, he has scored over 30 when need be, averaged 6 assists when need be, played defense against the other teams best player in the playoffs, carried a terrible Magic team to the playoffs for 2-3 straight year, brought 2 great teams (Mavs and Pistons) to game 7's practically on his own, a VERY underrated player in the clutch, and is still probably the best pure scorer in the league when healthy. This year he hasn't been healthy, but for the past4-5 years, he has been the league's most dangerous scorer.</div> Lebron has never hit a game winner in the playoffs because he has never been to the playoffs which can be directed to the fact that he has never had a decent team or a good defensive team and that he had only played 2 years in the league. It took TMac 3 years also to make the playoffs and he didn't even lead his team to the finals when that happened. Lebron has never been clutch because most young players besides Carmelo don't know how toi be clutch. Lebron has scored 55. Did TMac do that in his first 3 seasons? No. I bet Lebron will score around 80 some time in his career. Name a 21 year old who plays lockdown defense? Lebron almost carried the Cavs to the playoffs last year and without Larry Hughes Lebron is playing very well and the Cavs have a very good record. Without Lebron and Larry they would be a crap team. Are you saying that you don't think Lebron has ever beat a team on his own? yeah right.Your whole debate is faulty because you basically listed all the things Mac has done in the past when the debate is about right now. What has TMac done better then Lebron besides defense within the past 2 years. I'll show you. NOTHINGHere is a comparison of Lebron this year between TMac two seasons ago when he was healthy.Scoring-Lebron 31, TMac 25.7Rebounding-Lebron 6.9, TMac 6.2Assists-Lebron 6.5, TMac 5.7Shooting %-Lebron .484, TMac .4313 %-Lebron .352, TMac .326Blocks-Lebron .86, TMac .79Steals-Lebron 1.65, TMac 1.26Inside Points-Lebron (first among Guards last year) :yahoo:
right now I would take T-mac just because what he brings to the table besides scoring, and rebound and assiting etc.......... like Lebron doesnt have the tool to do that T-mac did against the Spurs make like 4 3 pointer in like 40 secound. Another thing is the killer motavation that Kobe,T-mac and the other guys have. But in 2-3 years OH BOY lebron will surpass Kobe and everyone else trsu me on that. he still needs some working to do on some parts of his game like when and when not to take a 3 some of those 3 that he takes when we are losing by like 1 points he decideds to take the 3, I mean c'mon take it to the whole do somthin, he could have easily went to the line but Im not even gonna argue with him, if he gets his defense striaght and those other things I mentioned up there he will be one of the best players when its all said and done
Bad Debate. We all know TMac has accomplished more but LeBron is still young and is already a superstar.Right now I pick TMac...Future is LeBron.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Feb 14 2006, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lebron has never hit a game winner in the playoffs because he has never been to the playoffs which can be directed to the fact that he has never had a decent team or a good defensive team and that he had only played 2 years in the league. It took TMac 3 years also to make the playoffs and he didn't even lead his team to the finals when that happened. Lebron has never been clutch because most young players besides Carmelo don't know how toi be clutch. Lebron has scored 55. Did TMac do that in his first 3 seasons? No. I bet Lebron will score around 80 some time in his career. Name a 21 year old who plays lockdown defense? Lebron almost carried the Cavs to the playoffs last year and without Larry Hughes Lebron is playing very well and the Cavs have a very good record. Without Lebron and Larry they would be a crap team. Are you saying that you don't think Lebron has ever beat a team on his own? yeah right.Your whole debate is faulty because you basically listed all the things Mac has done in the past when the debate is about right now. What has TMac done better then Lebron besides defense within the past 2 years. I'll show you. NOTHINGHere is a comparison of Lebron this year between TMac two seasons ago when he was healthy.Scoring-Lebron 31, TMac 25.7Rebounding-Lebron 6.9, TMac 6.2Assists-Lebron 6.5, TMac 5.7Shooting %-Lebron .484, TMac .4313 %-Lebron .352, TMac .326Blocks-Lebron .86, TMac .79Steals-Lebron 1.65, TMac 1.26Inside Points-Lebron (first among Guards last year) :yahoo:</div>You cannot even compare T-Mac's first seasons to leBron's, T-mac was under VC's shadow for a long time and he got VERY little playing time. Compare when he first went to the Magic. He carried his team to the playoffs pretty much every year with a team far worse than the Cavs last year or this year. Kobe played lockdown defense at 21, T-Mac did before he was a great offensive player. With Hughes- 18/10, without Hughes- 12/11. Hardly what i would call a very good record. Bron is 2 for 18 alltime while trying to tie or win the game in the last 10 seconds of the game. T-Mac is far better in the clutch. What happenned when it was a tight game vs. the Warriors? he tucked his tail between his legs and went 1 for 3 or so ridiculous number like that in the final quarter.And your arguement is faulty. What do those stats mean when you are in 4th palce with 2 months to go and drop to 9th place by season's end? What do those stats mean when you aren't playing with a dominant center like Yao, a bunch of great role players, and are doing it all on your own? What do those stats mean when you don't win something?If you want a better comparison, compare them when they were in similar situations. T-Mac '02-'03 to Bron '04-'05. Both had at least 1 year (T-Mac had 2 years) of being the true leader and #1 option on the team. Both played on relatively crappy teams (although Magic were worse). Let's look at the statsoints: T-Mac: 32PPG on 46% shooting. Bron: 27PPG on 47% shootingAssists: T-Mac: 5.5APG Bron: 7.2APGRebounds: T-Mac: 6.5RPG Bron: 7.4RPGTurnovers: T-Mac: 2.6 Bron: 3.3Steals: T-Mac: 1.7SPG Bron: 2.2SPGAnd while Bron is a better driving scorer, T-Mac has the longest range of any player of his type. he can shoot fadeaways like nothing, and can shoot 3 pointers and drain them over double teams. Bron has improved shooting, but nowhere near T-Mac's level.As you can see, fairly simmilar. Difference? T-Mac brought his team to the playoffs despite being on a worse team, he brought the #1 seed Pistons to 7 games, and he kept coming up in the clutch and single handedly wong ames. By that I mean with points. Passing only gets you so far. Bron doesn't have the killer incstint yet to just kill you with scoring that Kobe, AI, pierce, T-Mac, wade, and melo have in the final quarter.Bottom line is stats don't mean everything. I could argue that Bron's stats are twice as good as Kobe's this year, but Kobe is still the better player because of things you can't see on the stat sheet. T-mac has been healthy about 90% or more 1/3 of this year. In that time, he hit 2 game winners, had consecutive 40 point games, made a game winning block, and averaged well above his miserable 26PPG this year (last year, after December, T-mac averaged 28PPG and pretty much carried the Rockets in the playoffs and final stretch). Bron and T-mac are about equal. T-Mac this year hasn't been too healthy, but when he has, he has been arguably better than Bron. What made MJ different from others was his defense to compliment his scoring, his ability to carry his team, and his ability to perform in the clutch. All 3 T-mac has done and proven, even this year. Bron isn't there (Yet). And remember, Magic Johnson and oscar Robertson had better stats than MJ, but MJ is still considered the best to ever play.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 14 2006, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You cannot even compare T-Mac's first seasons to leBron's, T-mac was under VC's shadow for a long time and he got VERY little playing time. Compare when he first went to the Magic. He carried his team to the playoffs pretty much every year with a team far worse than the Cavs last year or this year. Kobe played lockdown defense at 21, T-Mac did before he was a great offensive player. With Hughes- 18/10, without Hughes- 12/11. Hardly what i would call a very good record. Bron is 2 for 18 alltime while trying to tie or win the game in the last 10 seconds of the game. T-Mac is far better in the clutch. What happenned when it was a tight game vs. the Warriors? he tucked his tail between his legs and went 1 for 3 or so ridiculous number like that in the final quarter.And your arguement is faulty. What do those stats mean when you are in 4th palce with 2 months to go and drop to 9th place by season's end? What do those stats mean when you aren't playing with a dominant center like Yao, a bunch of great role players, and are doing it all on your own? What do those stats mean when you don't win something?If you want a better comparison, compare them when they were in similar situations. T-Mac '02-'03 to Bron '04-'05. Both had at least 1 year (T-Mac had 2 years) of being the true leader and #1 option on the team. Both played on relatively crappy teams (although Magic were worse). Let's look at the statsoints: T-Mac: 32PPG on 46% shooting. Bron: 27PPG on 47% shootingAssists: T-Mac: 5.5APG Bron: 7.2APGRebounds: T-Mac: 6.5RPG Bron: 7.4RPGTurnovers: T-Mac: 2.6 Bron: 3.3Steals: T-Mac: 1.7SPG Bron: 2.2SPGAnd while Bron is a better driving scorer, T-Mac has the longest range of any player of his type. he can shoot fadeaways like nothing, and can shoot 3 pointers and drain them over double teams. Bron has improved shooting, but nowhere near T-Mac's level.As you can see, fairly simmilar. Difference? T-Mac brought his team to the playoffs despite being on a worse team, he brought the #1 seed Pistons to 7 games, and he kept coming up in the clutch and single handedly wong ames. By that I mean with points. Passing only gets you so far. Bron doesn't have the killer incstint yet to just kill you with scoring that Kobe, AI, pierce, T-Mac, wade, and melo have in the final quarter.Bottom line is stats don't mean everything. I could argue that Bron's stats are twice as good as Kobe's this year, but Kobe is still the better player because of things you can't see on the stat sheet. T-mac has been healthy about 90% or more 1/3 of this year. In that time, he hit 2 game winners, had consecutive 40 point games, made a game winning block, and averaged well above his miserable 26PPG this year (last year, after December, T-mac averaged 28PPG and pretty much carried the Rockets in the playoffs and final stretch). Bron and T-mac are about equal. T-Mac this year hasn't been too healthy, but when he has, he has been arguably better than Bron. What made MJ different from others was his defense to compliment his scoring, his ability to carry his team, and his ability to perform in the clutch. All 3 T-mac has done and proven, even this year. Bron isn't there (Yet). And remember, Magic Johnson and oscar Robertson had better stats than MJ, but MJ is still considered the best to ever play.</div>Please don't try to beat around the bush. Lebron has been a lot better out of the gate then TMac did. TMAC GOT OVERSHADOWED BY VINCE BECAUSE HE WAS NOT AS GOOD! You can't say that because of playing time he wasnt worse then Lebron. By the ttime he came to Orlando he was a vet so that's not a good comparison at all. TMac had Drew Gooden, Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong and he was a vet, so what? They never got past the first round. Just an average team. The only thing TMac led the Magic to was the #1 pick in the draft in his last stint there.Well no crap, they have to start Pavlovic, I believe once they got used to their new rotation that they will become the 4th or 5th seed. TMac was a vet when he led Orlando to the playoffs, Lebron is 21 and you expected him to lead his crappy Cavs in his second year to the playoffs??? Well guess what. He almost did.Lebron is not clutch, so what? There are not many to be clutch at 21. Lebron, being the player he is will probably pick that up down the road. And we have yet to see how Lebron plays in the playoffs. WHen you are doing it all on your own you ppg average and rpg should be up. Just look at Kobe this year. Maybe not apg but everything else should be even better because now you get even more shots and more oportunities. I don't see how general stats can ever be faulty. You just tried to repeat what I said about your argument, lol.lmao what did you prove in those stats. Lebron wins 3 out of 4 there. I'm not counting TO's because that is a bull <Censored> stat. Lebron dribbles the ball up the court, he hustles for the ball, he tries to make plays, he is a 2nd year player, of course his TO's are gonna be up. And why is it fair when you are comparing TMac's best year with Lebrons' second year in the League? lol.TMac might make more 3 pointers but like Kobe he takes too many and Lebron has the higher percentage there. I'd rather my player make a higher percentage then make more but have a lower percentage if I were a coach. SInce when is jacking up 3's a good thing. TMacs' 3 point percentage this year: .297Again there you go with the past. How can you say that Lebron hasn't done anything? He's in his 2nd year. When he is TMacs' age I bet he will atleast get by the fucking first round of the playoffs. If you can't do that you have nothing to brag about. Lets compare who has led the best this year? TMac is on a loser team righ now and he has not been able to lead his team to a decent record well Lebron sits high up on the seed rankings.Ok, from there your debate goes complete bullshit so I'm not gonna answer that part but then I found that you said TMac when healthy has played better then Lebron? What has TMac done better then Lebron this whole season? Please don't bring up leadership because he hasn't been able to lead <Censored> this year. And no, not defense. Hardly anyone plays very good defense at such a young age. And because of that there is virtually nothing that TMac has the edge on his year. SO that is why LEBRON WINS! Ok, get over it. LEBRON IS BETTER!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Feb 14 2006, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Please don't try to beat around the bush. Lebron has been a lot better out of the gate then TMac did. TMAC GOT OVERSHADOWED BY VINCE BECAUSE HE WAS NOT AS GOOD! You can't say that because of playing time he wasnt worse then Lebron. By the ttime he came to Orlando he was a vet so that's not a good comparison at all. TMac had Drew Gooden, Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong and he was a vet, so what? They never got past the first round. Just an average team. The only thing TMac led the Magic to was the #1 pick in the draft in his last stint there.Well no crap, they have to start Pavlovic, I believe once they got used to their new rotation that they will become the 4th or 5th seed. TMac was a vet when he led Orlando to the playoffs, Lebron is 21 and you expected him to lead his crappy Cavs in his second year to the playoffs??? Well guess what. He almost did.Lebron is not clutch, so what? There are not many to be clutch at 21. Lebron, being the player he is will probably pick that up down the road. And we have yet to see how Lebron plays in the playoffs. WHen you are doing it all on your own you ppg average and rpg should be up. Just look at Kobe this year. Maybe not apg but everything else should be even better because now you get even more shots and more oportunities. I don't see how general stats can ever be faulty. You just tried to repeat what I said about your argument, lol.lmao what did you prove in those stats. Lebron wins 3 out of 4 there. I'm not counting TO's because that is a bull <Censored> stat. Lebron dribbles the ball up the court, he hustles for the ball, he tries to make plays, he is a 2nd year player, of course his TO's are gonna be up. And why is it fair when you are comparing TMac's best year with Lebrons' second year in the League? lol.TMac might make more 3 pointers but like Kobe he takes too many and Lebron has the higher percentage there. I'd rather my player make a higher percentage then make more but have a lower percentage if I were a coach. SInce when is jacking up 3's a good thing. TMacs' 3 point percentage this year: .297Again there you go with the past. How can you say that Lebron hasn't done anything? He's in his 2nd year. When he is TMacs' age I bet he will atleast get by the fucking first round of the playoffs. If you can't do that you have nothing to brag about. Lets compare who has led the best this year? TMac is on a loser team righ now and he has not been able to lead his team to a decent record well Lebron sits high up on the seed rankings.Ok, from there your debate goes complete bullshit so I'm not gonna answer that part but then I found that you said TMac when healthy has played better then Lebron? What has TMac done better then Lebron this whole season? Please don't bring up leadership because he hasn't been able to lead <Censored> this year. And no, not defense. Hardly anyone plays very good defense at such a young age. And because of that there is virtually nothing that TMac has the edge on his year. SO that is why LEBRON WINS! Ok, get over it. LEBRON IS BETTER!</div>You must not know the story. T-Mac was benched because he was called a show-off and needed to earn his minutes. He was never allowed to be a scoring option, so he focused on becoming a good defensive player. he was not a vet when going to the Magic, as he never played in Toronto!Yes, ALMOST. T-Mac was 22 when arriving on an Orlando team that was built around a tandem of Grant Hill and T-Mac. When Grant Hill never played, it left a huge void in the lineup. T-Mac carried that team in a way Lebron still hasn't. And last year, if Bron did such a good job of carrying the cavs, he wouldn't have let them slip from the 4th seed to 9th seed in 2 months.No, stats are never faulty, but they tell only half the story. As you said, LeBron isn't clutch. And that contridicts your arguement about the here and now. T-Mac is a proven leader and clutch, both are qualities that mean just as much as PPG/APG/etc... Lebron is neither (YET). There is no doubt in my mind when LeBron retires he will be remembered as being a leader and overall amazing player and clutch, but right now, he is not.Just because LeBron wins 3 out of the 4 doesn't mean sh*t, as you are ignoring what T-mac did that year. And T-Mac's best statistical year (last year he was much better than in '02'03, although you are too ignorant to see that) was his 3rd year as being the #1 option and leader of the Magic, and last year was Bron's second. T-Mac was not a vet, and barely ever played in Toronto because of the coach and VC. So those years are very comparable. And TO's are not a bullsh*t stat. T-Mac also brings up the ball on every team he is on, and creates all the plays. Lebron doesn't do near as much ballhandeling as T-Mac. Most of Bron's assists come off beautiful, almost impossible passes, but he is not the playmaker of the Cavs, and is not the man who sets up the man who ge tthe assist (which all coaches will say is the most important player in the play).T-mac does take too many, but he is a better 3 point shooter than Bron. And it isn't like he takes a ton of 3's game, he averages like 4 attempts per game. And again, his attempts are not one on one like Bron's, T-Mac's are usually when the shot clock is winding down or no one else is producing.First of all, Bron is in his 3rd year. And they are in much different situations. Yao has been hurt 1/2 the year, Anderson hurt all year, Alston hurt 3/4 of the year, Sura hasn't played a game, Swift hurt 1/4 of the year, Barry hurt all year....it is not fair at all to compare Rockets to Cavs. And check this stat out: Rockets without T-Mac: 0-13, with T-Mac: 21-17 (and that doesn't include that most of those games are with Yao out). And there YOU go, talking about Bron MIGHT do. He hasn't made a fucking playoff game yet. T-Mac in his first years as the first option and at least led a team crappier than the Cavs to the playoffs, and they did well.Again, LeBron is 2 for 18 in clutch situations in his career, including this year. Denver game, LA game, Warriors game...choke, choke, choke. T-mac hit a buzzer beater to beat LA, blocked JRich to win Warriors game, hit shot to tie Sonics to send it into overtime (which they ended up winning), game tier and game winners against Bulls after coming back from injury, etc... Am i supposed to give Bron a fucking pass to not play defense and not perform in the clutch because of his age? Hell no, especially when you are the one crying about the here and now.T-Mac is still the better of the 2, as he is a much mroe dangerous scorer when put into that position (as he has proven last year in playoffs, this year when healthy and getting 4-5 40 point games to Bron's 6, most points in single season since MJ, 2 scoring titles, list goes on and on), he is much more of a playmaker than LeBron, much better defender, and can perform in the clutch. he can also carry a team. One last thing: Is LeBron better than MJ. MJ also played better defense than Bron, even though his FG% was lower he was a more dangerous scorer, he carried teams to wins and to the playoffs in his first few seasons, and performed in the clutch....same thing as T-Mac. I do not know how you can argue all of that.
Tmac healthy is one of the best in the league. I can't believe everyone has forgotten how good mcgrady was. I'm not saying his way better than lebron but i'm giving it to Tracy. Tracy's stats last season were misleading, he had a team whereas lebron had to put ridicolous stats later in the year to get his team somewhere.Has anyone fogotten the tmac of orlando?edit: And this time last season the cavs were 30-20. we know how the season unfolded after the allstar game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Feb 15 2006, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Tmac healthy is one of the best in the league. I can't believe everyone has forgotten how good mcgrady was. I'm not saying his way better than lebron but i'm giving it to Tracy. Tracy's stats last season were misleading, he had a team whereas lebron had to put ridicolous stats later in the year to get his team somewhere.Has anyone fogotten the tmac of orlando?edit: And this time last season the cavs were 30-20. we know how the season unfolded after the allstar game.</div>Yay, someone gets it!Also, has anyone forgot the T-mac of the 2nd half of last season? Last 2-3 months T-mac was on fire and his old self, and he has had spots this season, too.
LOL, Tmac was on fire in the 2nd half of the season. He was the best swingman in the second half of the season. Sad that the rockets absolutely chokes.
arghh. Dude you say the same things over and over again each post. No use debating this anymore.... :no3:
Yeah, because you know I'm right. You know just because Bron is 21 isn't an excuse for him to slack on defense or to miss game winning shots. You know if we are comparing the here and now you have to look at their proven capabilities to carry a team to victories and to playoffs. And all of that is in T-Mac's advantage, along with him being a much more dangerous scorer, better defender, more clutch, better playmaker, and you know you can count on him in close games.
of course the arugment is clear:t-mac has accomplished more and has done way more than lebron has.but lebron will be the future of the league. one of the best. you really can't compare the two right now. t-mac wins by a landslide.great stats don't make a great player. not all the time.
Tracy McGrady is so damn lazy, I remember watching a segment on him during the offseason and his trainer would have to come in and drag his <Censored> out of bed every morning...Tracy McGrady is a walking back spasm waiting too happen, LeBron is bringing it this year, i'd rather have him.
He may be lazy, and he is always tired, but he gets it done. Period. And T-Mac missed 3 games last seaosn, and in the past 3-4 seasons he has missed less than Kobe has. This year he has had a bad year with injuries, but he hasn't missed as many games as Yao, Amare, JO, Kobe last year, AI 2 years back, etc...And look at night, he had even more oppertunities to win the game and blew it....currently in 2OT with the Celts. He only scored 2 points in first OT, no rebounds, and no assists. Pierce on the other hand made a layup and foul, made free throw to tie game. He has 47 points and many of his has came in 2nd half. Just one more example....
Even as a big time T-Mac fan, I find it pitiful of T-Mac that he is letting a guy way younger than him have much higher stats. But then again, I've seen him admit that being on a team like HOU has lightened the load so he doesn't have 2 do too much other than score about 20 pts. and have 6-7 asts, where as LBJ has to lead the team.
