[quote name='Real Deal' post='1928' date='Feb 15 2006, 11:58 PM']I didn't say the entire year, I'm talking the first half of the season. The Lakers were all ISO the first half, and it favored Kobe. In the second half, Kobe went down with an injury, and his numbers got ugly with Lamar out for the remainder of the season (shoulders) and the triangle was put into play mid-season...all reasons why his year looked bad at the end.[/quote]Kobe was having a very ugly statsistcal season before he got hurt. Them going downhill just added insult to injury (literally). Shaq and Yao are centers, not PF's. Ron Artest abuses PF's in the post, and just last night had like 15 rebounds. But I think LeBron could do an average job on KG, Rasheed, etc.. (on offense, on defense he wouldn't do well, but could still do better than an average PF, and that goes to my point the LeBron needs to improve defense). No one wins rings on their own. Even MJ didn't. Unlike Kobe, Shaq has made playoffs every year without Kobe, made conference finals 3x, finals once, and proved to be most dominate player in NBA history down low. But that wasn't arguement that I brought up. My point was that Kobe was the playmaker of a championship caliber team with such a dominate figure down low. Bron hasn't had that oppertunity. T-Mac has been the initiator, scorer, and assist man for each team he has been on sicne the Raptors. He is the one creating plays, he is virtually the PG, and scores. And if you have seen the Magic teams he was on or all of the missed oppertunities with Yao last year, you will see why he has never broke 6 assists. Kobe is NOT the playmaker this year. Lamar is. That is the only reason Kobe is getting 35PPG and has less than 4TO's, he is the designated scorer. Lamar is the one setting up the offense and initiating everything. You don't need 10 assists to be the playmaker. Lamar is more of a scorer than Z is, Caron Butler was far better than Gooden, then last year Kobe had gunners like Atkins and someone else I am forgetting. He also had a decent low post presence in Mihm. Lebron last year had Z, and that is it. Gooden isn't a good scorer at all, and the rest: Eric Snow? Ira Newble? LeBron had no one to give the ball to last year, but still mananged 7APG. And if you saw the T-Mac topic, Bron isn't a true playmaker either. He is the man who gets the assist off penetration and dishing, but doesn't initiate the offense much (compared to ture PG's like JKidd, or players like AI, T-Mac, etc..). Again, just because you have 8 assists doesn't mean you ar ethe playmaker. That is hitting the open man after being double teamed. Lamar is the playmaker, as he gets Kobe into the situation and the offense into the position to where Kobe can work and make his magic.
1) Shaq missed the playoffs once, his rookie season. Kobe missed the playoffs once. Shaq has no excuse just like Kobe has no excuse, since O'Neal was already dropping 23 PPG and grabbing 14 RPG his first year.2) I never said Kobe was the playmaker this season, not designated as one anyways. Just because you're not the designated playmaker (initiator), that doesn't mean you can't be one. Point guards penetrate, draw the defense, and kick out to the shooter...right? That's playmaking if it's drawn up that way. Why isn't drawing the double-teams and kicking it out playmaking when Kobe does it?3) LeBron would not do good posting up against Sheed or Garnett...you're talking about two of the best defensive PF's in the league. Not gonna happen.4) Don't compare Odom and Butler to Big Z and Gooden, because both Odom and Caron aren't big men (Odom is, technically, but he's a perimeter player). When you have similar players on a team, it doesn't work out...which explains the Butler/Kwame trade. I'd give anything for Kobe to have Big Z and Gooden instead of Kwame and Mihm for our bigs.5) Odom is only a playmaker for the other players. I've watched every single Laker game since he became a Laker, and Odom brings the ball up and immediately passes to Kobe at the wing. Kobe either passes it back and works away from the ball to lure the defense away, or he creates for himself. Lamar's assists come from passing to the rest of his teammates, who typically stand like statues and watch Kobe.You are assuming that LeBron will be better in five years. That's what Grant Hill fans did. In fact, Jerry Stackhouse fans did the same as well. I really don't think LeBron will win more than one or two rings...and I don't believe he'll ever average a triple-double, like people believe. I don't see him scoring 37 PPG. In five years, Kobe will start to drop from his prime, and I don't think LeBron will ever reach Kobe status.Too bad LeBron and Kobe weren't drafted in 1996 together, because I'd love to see LeBron match up with Kobe with both of them at 28 or 29 years old. There's a reason LeBron admires Kobe and says he is his role model...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ron Artest was playing the four with LeBron on him, and Artest abused him in the post. Artest is smaller.</div> Artest is 6'6" 260...He's a fricken African Buffalo in the post.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Feb 15 2006, 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Artest is 6'6" 260...He's a fricken African Buffalo in the post.</div>He gives up 2-3 inches to LeBron, who should be swatting him since everyone believes he's the greatest dunker on the face of the Earth.
Im probably chiming in late, but here I go.Kobe is the better player than Kobe in every aspect of the game aside from court vision. Hes more selfish, which has ups and downs. The ups being, that he wants the ball in the clutch and be the hero (something I havent seen from Lebron). The bad part is that his teammates feel isolated and not involved.The only issue that I have with this is that the two guys like each other. I want to see an east coast/west coast rivals. I was really hoping that Wade and Kobe hates each other guts, but that aint happening anytime soon either. But thats for another topic.
He's telling the truth about how odom is the play maker. However you need to realise why we lost last season. Besides injuries and coach swaps and a coach doesn't want to be there, we lost because of defense. Last season we were giving up 101 points, our offense was good but it didn't compensate for our D. That is why we did horribly besides the other nuincances.Lebron on the other side had an allstar center besides him, and at this point of the season they were 30-20. What happened after the allstar game break? His team collapsed and lebron started putting up ridicolous stats are up to no avail.And maybe Shaq has always been on a decent team his whole career? In orlando he had penny, in his earlier days on the lakers they had 3 allstars and in miami he has an allstar too. When was the last time shaq hasn't played without an allstar?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (anypoint @ Feb 16 2006, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The bad part is that his teammates feel isolated and not involved.</div>After tonight, I'd trade anyone (besides Kobe) for a consistent scorer and/or above-average defense. I don't blame Kobe for being selfish...Smush Parker missed a wide-open dunk from a Kobe pass. Pathetic teammates.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Feb 16 2006, 12:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He's telling the truth about how odom is the play maker.</div>I never said he wasn't. I said Odom is our point-forward (initiator) back in my earlier posts (I believe). That doesn't mean our other players can't be playmakers...that doesn't make much sense. When you're the main focus of a play that results in you assisting your teammate for the basket, and that's how it was drawn up, then you just "made a play." If the triangle didn't revolve around Kobe, and he had another scoring big man, he'd be a very nice playmaker...along with his scoring...because that's what he did with O'Neal, and I'm sure he could do it with any legit scorer in the post.
You made alot of great points Brandon. But imma still gonna go with lebron james. This kid is in his 3rd season. Kobe is in his 10th. Am i rite? Well lebron is doing things that kobe is now. Stat wise. Yeah kobe is wayyyy better in the clutch. And much harder to stop. But its taken many years to become like that. When lebron has as many years under his belt like kobe lebron will be on an other level. IMO.But yeah rite now i still take lebron. Looks like every nite he can get a triple double.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Lebron on the other side had an allstar center besides him, and at this point of the season they were 30-20. What happened after the allstar game break? His team collapsed and lebron started putting up ridicolous stats are up to no avail.</div> Zydrunas Ilgauskas is a nice player but he was an all-star because they needed a center filler...And he gives up as much as he scores.
This topic will always be a great debate, but in all fairness to Lebron, he is only a third year player and you can't make the shots until you miss them. Kobe, remember, airballed a game winner in the playoffs early on in his career and MJ missed the shot against the Lakers in game 1 of the Finals, so give LeBron time. Also, they play different kinds of games, LeBron asked to do a little more around the glass and help distribute the ball, while Kobe really has a green light to take any shot he can square his body too. With all that being said, if I needed a player for one game, Kobe; but if I was a GM I would have to take LeBron because not only is he younger, he is the best player at his age, probably ever.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1) Shaq missed the playoffs once, his rookie season. Kobe missed the playoffs once. Shaq has no excuse just like Kobe has no excuse, since O'Neal was already dropping 23 PPG and grabbing 14 RPG his first year.2) I never said Kobe was the playmaker this season, not designated as one anyways. Just because you're not the designated playmaker (initiator), that doesn't mean you can't be one. Point guards penetrate, draw the defense, and kick out to the shooter...right? That's playmaking if it's drawn up that way. Why isn't drawing the double-teams and kicking it out playmaking when Kobe does it?3) LeBron would not do good posting up against Sheed or Garnett...you're talking about two of the best defensive PF's in the league. Not gonna happen.4) Don't compare Odom and Butler to Big Z and Gooden, because both Odom and Caron aren't big men (Odom is, technically, but he's a perimeter player). When you have similar players on a team, it doesn't work out...which explains the Butler/Kwame trade. I'd give anything for Kobe to have Big Z and Gooden instead of Kwame and Mihm for our bigs.5) Odom is only a playmaker for the other players. I've watched every single Laker game since he became a Laker, and Odom brings the ball up and immediately passes to Kobe at the wing. Kobe either passes it back and works away from the ball to lure the defense away, or he creates for himself. Lamar's assists come from passing to the rest of his teammates, who typically stand like statues and watch Kobe.You are assuming that LeBron will be better in five years. That's what Grant Hill fans did. In fact, Jerry Stackhouse fans did the same as well. I really don't think LeBron will win more than one or two rings...and I don't believe he'll ever average a triple-double, like people believe. I don't see him scoring 37 PPG. In five years, Kobe will start to drop from his prime, and I don't think LeBron will ever reach Kobe status.Too bad LeBron and Kobe weren't drafted in 1996 together, because I'd love to see LeBron match up with Kobe with both of them at 28 or 29 years old. There's a reason LeBron admires Kobe and says he is his role model...</div>1) I think a rookie has much more leeway compared to a guy who was in his 8th-9th season and has 3 rings. Shaq also came onto a team that was brand new.2) I consider playmaker who initiates, can dish off, score, and draw double teams. That is mostly a PG's job, but there are exceptions. This year Kobe has made offense for himself and took ENORMOUS pressure off his teammates, but still not a true playmaker.3) But, neither are nearly as athletic as Bron, as quick as Bron, and they are only 2 inches or so taller. 4) There is no reason Kobe couldn't do better with Odom and Butler. Hughes and Bron are alike and do well. RJ and VC are alike and play well together. Also, I'd take Odom/Butler over any combo you could think of on the Cavs last year. 5) Lamar still sets up the offense, initiates all the movement, and get the ball where it needs to be (and can score). 6) No one says LeBron will average a triple double, BUT he is the most probable to this day and age. And unlike Stack or Grant, when did they average 30/7/7 in their second and third seasons on near 50% shooting? When did they lead league in triple doubles? When did either have near as much atheltic ability, scoring ability, and passing ability Bron does? When were they only under 21 and doing all of this? If Bron took 2 more shots (which would be 24FGA to Kobe's 28FGA) he would be averaging 35PPG like Kobe while taking 4 less FGA (and having 3 more assists and a rebound or 2 more). You say only 1-2 rings, but Kobe won rings on a team led by Shaq. That was not a duel led team....Shaq was THE man. Kobe got numbers and performed in clutch, but Shaq was the one who up'd his games in playoffs, always demanded ball and delivered in post, totally <Censored> on people in big games, and was the vocal leader and emotional leader. Shaq was always MVP in Fianls, and ask all of the lakers who truly led them, and they will say Shaq. If LeBron ever wins rings, he will be the Batman and be the man on his team.7) I said Kobe was better, you keep making it seem like I am not. But, even though he admires Kobe, LeBron is Magic Johnson type of player. I would hate for him to be like Kobe, as he has much more talent in other areas except scoring and defense. I put Kobe above Bron because of defense, ability to carry a team, ability to winn games with clutch shots, and more dangerous (although not nearly as efficient) scorer.
Lebron was hitting his jumpshots yesteday, but there was so many games when he kept on missing because he wasn't taking his usual efficient shots. That is why jump shooters in the league have not too great percentages. Kobe, Tmac, Ray allen, Redd etc.
Nitro...it all comes down to this: you're very confident that in just five years, LeBron will be better than Kobe.I'm telling you that's not going to happen.Bron is young, and that's everyone's excuse for missing game winners and having flaws. I don't think so. He was put on SI and already being called the best player ever...so if those comparisons are already drawing for LeBron, he better be flawless by this season. Unfortunately, he isn't.I honestly believe this won't be Kobe's best year. To date, yes...but if the Lakers bring in just one scorer, someone that will draw one defender away from Bryant...things will get ugly for anyone stepping up to defend him one-on-one. I really don't think LeBron will ever reach that level. All of these guys who seem to "stop Kobe" one-on-one...they are doing it with team defense. Josh Howard, Bruce Bowen, Andre Iguodala...all of them have yet to play Kobe face up for 40 minutes...without double and triple teams.Kobe will have one or two more rings before he retires. He'll have more than one MVP as well, with over two scoring titles. With that said, this would all be coming after a season where he scored 81, and averaged 35+ a game. All he needs is that one teammate who will call themselves a second option.
You say LeBron can never reach Kobe's level and you give no reasoning and then you pull out of your butt the fact that Kobe will win 2 more titles?Kobe fans just don't like the fact that LeBron is so far advanced at his age, he's doing things you would praise jesus for if it was Kobe...so you just knock LeBron for no reason.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nitro...it all comes down to this: you're very confident that in just five years, LeBron will be better than Kobe.I'm telling you that's not going to happen.Bron is young, and that's everyone's excuse for missing game winners and having flaws. I don't think so. He was put on SI and already being called the best player ever...so if those comparisons are already drawing for LeBron, he better be flawless by this season. Unfortunately, he isn't.I honestly believe this won't be Kobe's best year. To date, yes...but if the Lakers bring in just one scorer, someone that will draw one defender away from Bryant...things will get ugly for anyone stepping up to defend him one-on-one. I really don't think LeBron will ever reach that level. All of these guys who seem to "stop Kobe" one-on-one...they are doing it with team defense. Josh Howard, Bruce Bowen, Andre Iguodala...all of them have yet to play Kobe face up for 40 minutes...without double and triple teams.Kobe will have one or two more rings before he retires. He'll have more than one MVP as well, with over two scoring titles. With that said, this would all be coming after a season where he scored 81, and averaged 35+ a game. All he needs is that one teammate who will call themselves a second option.</div>Real honestly, if Bron was better on defense and in clutch moments, I'd take him over Kobe anyday. he is more efficient in scoring, better passer, better rebounder/steal guy, and can just do more overall.I agree his youth isn't an excuse. Look at the T-Mac vs LeBron topic, I ripped LeBron for that.This year isn't Kobe's best IMO. In 2002-2003, he averaged 30PPG on beter shooting %, averaged almost 1 and a half more APG, more RPG, more SPG, and the team actually went somewhere. If you don't think Lamar is a good 2nd option, you are way too greedy. He is the only reaosn Kobe is scoring above 30PPG or has less than 4 TO's. He is the one giving Kobe those scoring options, he takes away a ton of pressure on Kobe with his passing ability and ability to score (he is averaging 16PPG, and has averaged above 18-20PPG before). And no matter what happens, Kobe will NEVER see single coverage. Bron doesn't, T-Mac doesn't, no superstar does. I love how you call me out for saying LeBron will be better with a few more years, yet you are making a MUCH more far fetched statement in saying he will win anymore rings. You cannot expect him to ever get another Shaq on the team, and when he had a team full of good roll players last year and he was the true playmakers, he failed. Right now, the only thing Kobe has on bron IMO is things you can gain only by experience (carrying a team, taking over games in clutch), and of course defense. I am done with this topic, as we are gonna start going around in circles. But IMO, LeBron is a more efficient scorer, is more versatile, much bette rpasser, and has the height advantage mixed with ahtletic ability all on his side. Right now Kobe is better because of superb defense and thigns you gain with time. In a few years, Bron will be the best player in the league. But right now, that man is Kobe.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Feb 16 2006, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You say LeBron can never reach Kobe's level and you give no reasoning and then you pull out of your butt the fact that Kobe will win 2 more titles?Kobe fans just don't like the fact that LeBron is so far advanced at his age, he's doing things you would praise jesus for if it was Kobe...so you just knock LeBron for no reason.</div>Give me a break, I'm a fan of LeBron James. I've got two Bron jerseys. I don't like the fact that he was called the best player in the league when he was a rookie, that's what bothers me. He's not the best player right now, either.And he had MVP considerations last season, even at the end. Why?LeBron is the type of player that would see a decline in his stats if he had a teammate such as Shaq. It's because he's passive, and he doesn't have that killer instinct. He'll never have it, either...which makes him good, possibly great, but not a Kobe Bryant great.So if he doesn't get that teammate, he'll never win a ring. If he does get that All-Star teammate, those amazing stats won't show anymore...but the rings will. Which is it? Either way, Kobe will be "up one" for Bron's entire career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Give me a break, I'm a fan of LeBron James. I've got two Bron jerseys. I don't like the fact that he was called the best player in the league when he was a rookie, that's what bothers me. He's not the best player right now, either.And he had MVP considerations last season, even at the end. Why?LeBron is the type of player that would see a decline in his stats if he had a teammate such as Shaq. It's because he's passive, and he doesn't have that killer instinct. He'll never have it, either...which makes him good, possibly great, but not a Kobe Bryant great.So if he doesn't get that teammate, he'll never win a ring. If he does get that All-Star teammate, those amazing stats won't show anymore...but the rings will. Which is it? Either way, Kobe will be "up one" for Bron's entire career.</div>I know this was to BCB, but this is one of the most ingorant POS posts I have ever seen:First of all, Bron's stats would go way up. If Bron is getting 7 assists with a center as passive as Z, imagine what would happen with Shaq? You can see a similar spike in assists with Wade when he has Shaq, and Kobe when he had Shaq to his 4APG now. His points wouldn't go down, either, as he only takes 22 FGA. Kobe took more FGA with a Shaq in his prime and never scored as much. Only stat I would see declining is rebounds....Bron has that kill instinct, and that is clear in all games he plays, but his problem is he doesn't know what to do in the final moments. That takes many games and many clutch situations to learn from. Kobe had the advantage of having years of winning from the moment he stepped into the NBA to learn what to do in the clutch. That is why by 21 he was hitting game winners in the finals. But if you remember early in his career, Kobe was very un-clutch. It took T-Mac years to become a decent clutch player, and Bron will eventually channel all of his energy and capabilities into the last minute of the game. Except for one year, Kobe never had amazing stats with Shaq. 26-27/6/5.5 pretty much. It wasn't until without Shaq did he get these 35PPG. Unlike Kobe, Bron's numbers would go up with a great all star next to him, as he would rack up more assists and since he only takes 22FGA per game, his scoring wouldn't drop as he doesn't need many shot attempts to get his points.Again, Kobe only has defense and ability to carry a team in the clutch on his side. That is well enough for me to put Kobe over Bron, but Bron will imrpove in both areas in the coming years (hell, he has made huge leaps in jump shot, defense, and even ability to take over game in closing minutes in the past year).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I know this was to BCB, but this is one of the most ingorant POS posts I have ever seen:First of all, Bron's stats would go way up. If Bron is getting 7 assists with a center as passive as Z, imagine what would happen with Shaq? You can see a similar spike in assists with Wade when he has Shaq, and Kobe when he had Shaq to his 4APG now.</div>Let me guess...LeBron would be getting 20 assists with Shaq? Kobe's high in assists came last season, by the way...not with O'Neal.With a strong center, LeBron would not be grabbing 7 boards a game, and if that center was a scoring machine, Bron's PPG would drop as well. Furthermore, if you think James can average 10 assists per game, you're sadly mistaken.
