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MARIS61

MARIS61

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Does anyone else hate how Nate/Roy completely throw out all the good this team does together so it becomes the Brandon-against-5 show to end each game? Why can't we just cruise to a victory like normal, really good teams do? Why do we have to stop whatever we are doing that is working so well and go "Stop all that. It's Brandon Roy time."

It makes sense SOMETIMES for him to have the ball and dribble out some time, or take that last-second shot, but now we're starting to do that with 4-5 minutes left and, miracles aside, it will bite us more often than not over a long season. It's basic coaching that you have to keep playing your game, feed the hot hand, play the guys who've had success this game, and never let up.

Sergio, Rudy, Joel, LA, and Travis handed us a solid win that would have been a blowout loss without them, and then Nate pulls the plug and we go down in flames. Blake had no business being on the floor at the end and immediately hurt us at both ends. Roy hogged the ball despite being double-teamed for 4 minutes and ignored open shooters continually.

I remember way back when Roy would drive and create, then pass to a teammate who was open. Now he just wants it all for himself. It's frustrating to watch, and eventually it will cause chemistry problems if not dealt with.

(Sadly) hilarious that he has now replaced Zach as the black hole on offense.
 
MARIS61 said:
Does anyone else hate how Nate/Roy completely throw out all the good this team does together so it becomes the Brandon-against-5 show to end each game? Why can't we just cruise to a victory like normal, really good teams do? Why do we have to stop whatever we are doing that is working so well and go "Stop all that. It's Brandon Roy time."

It makes sense SOMETIMES for him to have the ball and dribble out some time, or take that last-second shot, but now we're starting to do that with 4-5 minutes left and, miracles aside, it will bite us more often than not over a long season. It's basic coaching that you have to keep playing your game, feed the hot hand, play the guys who've had success this game, and never let up.

Sergio, Rudy, Joel, LA, and Travis handed us a solid win that would have been a blowout loss without them, and then Nate pulls the plug and we go down in flames. Blake had no business being on the floor at the end and immediately hurt us at both ends. Roy hogged the ball despite being double-teamed for 4 minutes and ignored open shooters continually.

I remember way back when Roy would drive and create, then pass to a teammate who was open. Now he just wants it all for himself. It's frustrating to watch, and eventually it will cause chemistry problems if not dealt with.

(Sadly) hilarious that he has now replaced Zach as the black hole on offense.
Click to expand...


What's "Now he just wants it all to himself" supposed to mean? He's a selfish player?
 
I'm really not a fan of the iso-brandon offense. It can be effective, but we need to be ready to go away from it when teams adjust. LMA was on fire. Keep feeding him. Keep running the pick and roll. Rudy was playing well. I'm not necessarily saying that it's Brandon. It might be Nate. It has a history of working, but teams are adjusting to it. What concerns me is that everything shuts down when Brandon iso's. Nobody is moving. If you want to iso brandon, that's fine, but move without the ball.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I'm really not a fan of the iso-brandon offense. It can be effective, but we need to be ready to go away from it when teams adjust. LMA was on fire. Keep feeding him. Keep running the pick and roll. Rudy was playing well. I'm not necessarily saying that it's Brandon. It might be Nate. It has a history of working, but teams are adjusting to it. What concerns me is that everything shuts down when Brandon iso's. Nobody is moving. If you want to iso brandon, that's fine, but move without the ball.
Click to expand...

To be honest I think it's more of a Nate thing. It's either a Brandon iso at the top of the key or a Travis iso at the top of the key.

I really, really wish Nate would put in more offensive sets that had cutters and backdoor screens etc. I also believe this is a Nate issue because while people complain about some players it's been that way the whole time he's been here and that is through a lot of different players. So I have to believe it is a Nate thing and not a player thing.
 
Rodolfo said:
What's "Now he just wants it all to himself" supposed to mean? He's a selfish player?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is what it looks like to me. I've noticed it for a couple weeks now, and it comes earlier and earlier each game, and he passes less and less, just wanting to score by himself even when there are wide-open shooters and he's swarmed. I think he wants to be Jordan, he wants the acclaim, the highlight reels, the sportscenter accolades. Kinda turns my stomach. I really think someone needs to talk to him, unless it's Nate telling him to ignore open shooters (which I don't buy).

From a spectator POV, it's not a style I enjoy to watch. If I want 1-on-1, I'll watch tennis or bowling.
 
The Sebastian Express said:
To be honest I think it's more of a Nate thing. It's either a Brandon iso at the top of the key or a Travis iso at the top of the key.

I really, really wish Nate would put in more offensive sets that had cutters and backdoor screens etc. I also believe this is a Nate issue because while people complain about some players it's been that way the whole time he's been here and that is through a lot of different players. So I have to believe it is a Nate thing and not a player thing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the problem is that teams figure out Nate's two play offense and then they adjust to it. They know Nate runs the high pick and roll, so they adjust to it. They know he iso's Roy, so they double Roy.
 
Then Nate has no answer for when the double comes, its not like this is the first time teams have doubled Brandon.
And why did Blake keep checking in for Rodriguez? Little guy had it going tonight.
I am still not sold on Nate as our coach, too many things like these come up.
He doesn't work the officials. He took out Joel tonight for no reason and we gave up points in the paint.
Mind boggling.
 
I do not think that Brandon is being selfish. I think he is turning into a dominant player for his team, just like a LBJ or kobe or wade, and becoming a dominant player in the league. Let's face it, he's getting really good at the "taking over a game at will" thing. Really good. I have no idea any more what his peak as a player might look like. Perhaps off the charts...

But I agree with the sentiments that Nate uses this ability of Brandon's as a crutch, and disrupts the flow of we have going for three and a half quarters almost every game. It's isolation after isolation down the stretch, from the same spot on the floor no less... We have too many weapons to settle for that.
 
I think if you look around the league the star on any given team will always have the ball in his hands coming down the stretch. I've got no beef with BRoy taking over at the end of games. No different then Kobe or Wade or CP3.
 
Uncle Ty said:
Frankly, I'm a lot more concern with the defense than offense at this point. Specifically, our perimeter D (at the point) is horrid.
Click to expand...

agreed. we are like the basketball equivalent of a Big 10 football team. we can grind it out against slow teams, but against anyone with speed/spacing/uptempo style/big play ability, we struggle.
 
Uncle Ty said:
Frankly, I'm a lot more concern with the defense than offense at this point. Specifically, our perimeter D (at the point) is horrid.
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree, and it's been something I've been paying attention to lately. Opponents are consistently shooting 50-plus percent against us, and we're 22nd in the league in opp. FG percentage. That's not a good stat.
 
I think overall Brandon has played great. But i remember this offseason Nate told him to look to score more and Brandon is. I remember not liking that.

Brandon has been taking a lot of shots even when he is off, he is turning it over more and complaining to the refs a lot more. He is not setting up his teammates like he used to, even though his assist numbers are still there. He has gone from leaning more toward beinga playmaker toward a scorer now.

But I think he is playing good ball. Sometimes I think it stagnates the offense because he ISOs a lot. Oh well..
 
Are you guys really complaining about Roy? WTF, the guy went off last night in the clutch until the other team doubled him then he gave the ball to his teammates who failed to deliver. He is quickly becoming a superstar. You win games like this and playoff games because of players like Roy, see Charles Barkleys comments from the Houston halftime. Also I believe there was a quote from Jameer talking about how Roy was almost video game like, unstoppable........
 
1 Eye Jack said:
Are you guys really complaining about Roy? WTF, the guy went off last night in the clutch until the other team doubled him then he gave the ball to his teammates who failed to deliver. He is quickly becoming a superstar. You win games like this and playoff games because of players like Roy, see Charles Barkleys comments from the Houston halftime. Also I believe there was a quote from Jameer talking about how Roy was almost video game like, unstoppable........
Click to expand...



Lol, you'd think we just got screwed out of the game 7 of the WCF or something...

Hot, lucky shooting and bad perimeter defense is what lost us the game, not Roy, not Blake, not Travis, although I would have much rather have had Rudy on Turk-agloo at the end...
 
I think this was our first loss is games decided by three points or less since early last March. I would say our end of game strategy is working just fine.
 
Yep. Nate has done a really nice job in end game situations. Roy has been clutch. You don't win every game... WE lost to a top 7ish team on the last (pretty lucky) shot guys. Its not the end of the world.

Honestly, our guys will learn more from a loss than a win. There are things to take from this loss and then move on. We will be fine. We are 15-8, and not even CLOSE to playing our best bball... Not even close.

So through the first 24, I thought we'd win about 11 of 'em... and we have a shot at 16 and 8. That is good. I really think that we have a shot to make the WCF this year... I really do. If we can finish in the top 4. Outside of that, I honestly think we go as far as Oden goes. He won't ever be dominant offensively, but as he continues to improve, I think it makes our team a lot better.

We will be fine.

PS - my post wasn't blaming Roy or anything. I've said this a couple weeks ago as well, just something I noticed. Anyone who blames Roy for this loss just isn't right.
 
The problem is we are playing "prevent defense" (with our offense) at the end of games. With a lead, we milk the clock to the point that we kill our own possessions. We had a full 24 seconds (if Nate hadn't wanted a time-out) to make the best of our last possession, but in order to milk the clock we got a much worse look than Orlando did with their 5 seconds. Heck, if Roy had shot the same crappy shot 1 second earlier, Aldridge's put back would have sealed the game.
 
I know this might be a shocker the Maris, but it was Outlaw's lack of execution, not Nate's play that caused the horrible shot attempt.

Roy should have never had to attempt the desperation three-pointer. Outlaw, who was standing in the corner behind the three-point line, was supposed to cut into the middle of the lane, but instead, he stood his ground.

"I messed up on my assignment," Outlaw said. "If I would have cut to the middle, who knows what would have happened."
Click to expand...
 
Tince said:
I know this might be a shocker the Maris, but it was Outlaw's lack of execution, not Nate's play that caused the horrible shot attempt.
Click to expand...

Roy could not have got the ball to him anyway after dribbling his double-team into the opposite corner just as they wanted him to.

Either way, we lost it when Blake came in for Sergio and we tried to dribble out the rest of the game, rather than play ball.

We gave up 9 straight points to finish, which will lose you just about any game you're being competitive in.

Like all losses, it goes on the coach.
 
MARIS61 said:
Like all losses, it goes on the coach.
Click to expand...

So, like all wins - it goes on the coach as well.

Overall, I am glad you have come around and learned to appreciate what a fine coach Nate is to have us at the wonderful record we have.
 
Frankly, until we get one more player who has the ability to create his own high quality shot no matter what (Sorry Travis) then it's pretty hard to make the argument that somebody else should have had the ball in their possession in the final two minutes, especially when it has seemed to work so well in the past.

The breakdown on our last offensive possession was Travis', he was supposed to cut to the middle giving Roy an outlet and he failed to execute. That's not really a bash on Travis, since SVG switched up his defense which worked doubly well since it confused Travis.

Maris this assertion that all losses go on the coach is hilarious, you're so committed to this anti-Nate, Pro-Sergio position that you've carved out for yourself that you're beyond any objectivity.
 
John Hollinger's analysis of the game and quotes from SVG:

Orlando gave itself that chance by switching defenses and trapping Brandon Roy at half court in the final two minutes to get the ball out of his hands, after he'd shredded every other look the league's third-ranked defense threw at him.

"I'm sometimes not a very bright guy, and it took him to get to 30 [points] before I said, 'We can't contain him,'" Van Gundy said. "We tried every scheme in the book, so we said, 'To hell with it -- we're going to trap him and make somebody else make a play.'"
Click to expand...

The plan was fine. Someone else (Travis in this case - but I thought Rudy chould have helped as well - it was his guy that left him to trap Roy) did not come to help as they should when a team commits multiple defenders to stop Roy.
 
MARIS61 said:
Does anyone else hate how Nate/Roy completely throw out all the good this team does together so it becomes the Brandon-against-5 show to end each game? Why can't we just cruise to a victory like normal, really good teams do? Why do we have to stop whatever we are doing that is working so well and go "Stop all that. It's Brandon Roy time."

It makes sense SOMETIMES for him to have the ball and dribble out some time, or take that last-second shot, but now we're starting to do that with 4-5 minutes left and, miracles aside, it will bite us more often than not over a long season. It's basic coaching that you have to keep playing your game, feed the hot hand, play the guys who've had success this game, and never let up.

Sergio, Rudy, Joel, LA, and Travis handed us a solid win that would have been a blowout loss without them, and then Nate pulls the plug and we go down in flames. Blake had no business being on the floor at the end and immediately hurt us at both ends. Roy hogged the ball despite being double-teamed for 4 minutes and ignored open shooters continually.

I remember way back when Roy would drive and create, then pass to a teammate who was open. Now he just wants it all for himself. It's frustrating to watch, and eventually it will cause chemistry problems if not dealt with.

(Sadly) hilarious that he has now replaced Zach as the black hole on offense.
Click to expand...

Roy should do whatever he wants to.

4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
)per 48 minutes)

This season: Roy averages 27.8 pts, 50% fg, 9.6 rebounds, 7.8 assists
Last season: Roy averaged 31.7 pts, 46.7% fg, 6.5 reb, 6.8 assists

So he actually passes more this year than he did last year in 'clutch' situations.
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT14.HTM
 
This thread is ridiculous, and this proves it:
The team is 5-0 this season in games decided by 4 points or less. In the Brandon Roy era, the team is now 25-9 in games decided by 3 points or less.
Click to expand...

People are also blathering on about a single Travis play - whatever. I have a feeling that Roy is very, very pissed at himself for missing so many 4th quarter FTs. I know I would be if I were him.

It happens. Hopefully, it'll make the team stronger.
 
andalusian said:
So, like all wins - it goes on the coach as well.
Click to expand...

Not at all, and I doubt you'll ever find a coach who would agree with you.

Games are won by the players and lost by the coach. It's just that simple.

andalusian said:
Overall, I am glad you have come around and learned to appreciate what a fine coach Nate is to have us at the wonderful record we have.
Click to expand...

I do appreciate Nate's growing competence and seemingly accelerating acceptance of new ideas over the last summer and this season. If he keeps progressing he might be a keeper.

Our record, OTOH, is worse than it should be IF we are merely trying to win each game. I doubt that's the plan this year though, and think many moves he has made are simply to see how certain players will respond in certain situations, (they didn't last night) and he's definitely still juggling lineups to see who fits where. I think we are targeting the trade deadline to see where we stand, whether we make a trade and regroup, or get serious about a Title run this year.

If we trade, it will set us back another season chemistry-wise, so I don't see it happening unless it's someone KP really covets.

Overall, I'm a happy fan right now, but that won't stop me from critiquing game management by the coach, player's acceptance of (or lack of) team concepts, and apparent areas we still need to work on.
 
Nikolokolus said:
Frankly, until we get one more player who has the ability to create his own high quality shot no matter what (Sorry Travis) then it's pretty hard to make the argument that somebody else should have had the ball in their possession in the final two minutes, especially when it has seemed to work so well in the past.
Click to expand...

My point is whoever has it should be someone who is playing as a teammate and directing the action, not as an individual fame-seeker who refuses to give up the rock when doubled.

Nikolokolus said:
The breakdown on our last offensive possession was Travis', he was supposed to cut to the middle giving Roy an outlet and he failed to execute. That's not really a bash on Travis, since SVG switched up his defense which worked doubly well since it confused Travis.
Click to expand...

I am more concerned with the continual practice of abandoning style and speed at the end of every game as if there was a set winning formula that applies universally.

Nikolokolus said:
Maris this assertion that all losses go on the coach is hilarious, you're so committed to this anti-Nate, Pro-Sergio position that you've carved out for yourself that you're beyond any objectivity.
Click to expand...

Obviously you've never coached, or never known a coach personally.

I have (both) and have never met one who would disagree with my view.

I am positive Nate would not argue the validity of my statement.

Any coach who takes credit for a win is a pompous idiot who will soon be looking for work.

Perhaps you don't even have a clue what their job description is, but it includes teaching, developing, and assembling a winning team, getting them to follow your instructions, keeping them motivated...

A player has a much simpler job description: Do what the coach tells you.
 
I can't believe people are complaining about Roy.

Seriously?

Is 30 points 'too much' for him to score? Do you want him to stay at 16, 4, & 4 forever? Are you honestly lamenting that he's becoming a (in your words) "Jordan-like superstar"?

Oh, the horror. I HATE when a guy looks like Jordan!

Calm the fuck down. Roy is not the problem. You need to realize in order for us to win in the playoffs, we need to have swag. We need to get angry. Brandon is the leader of our team. If he's out there, hitting bucket after bucket in the 4th quarter, just absolutely feeling it, why tell him stop? Would you rather have had him swing the ball to Travis for a 3 or something?

Look, Brandon's a smart player. If he feels he can make it, he'll usually take it. If not, most of the time he passes. Yes, he made a mistake (and a few others in the past couple weeks). But guess what? It's his 3RD YEAR. He's smart enough that he's going to learn from it.

You can only be a team player to a certain point. When it comes down to it, when games are on the line, deep in the playoffs, it's the individuals that seal the deal. Jordan. Barkley. Miller. Bryant. The list goes on. Yes, it's a team effort to win, but individuals end up nailing the coffin. There's very few examples of championship teams that didn't have one standout superstar.

If we want Roy to eventually get to that level of superstardom, you can't complain about him being "greedy". Let him feel it out. This is new for him. All will come in due time.
 
MARIS61 said:
My point is whoever has it should be someone who is playing as a teammate and directing the action, not as an individual fame-seeker who refuses to give up the rock when doubled.

I am more concerned with the continual practice of abandoning style and speed at the end of every game as if there was a set winning formula that applies universally.

Obviously you've never coached, or never known a coach personally. I have (both) and have never met one who would disagree with my view. I am positive Nate would not argue the validity of my statement. Any coach who takes credit for a win is a pompous idiot who will soon be looking for work. Perhaps you don't even have a clue what their job description is, but it includes teaching, developing, and assembling a winning team, getting them to follow your instructions, keeping them motivated ... A player has a much simpler job description: Do what the coach tells you.
Click to expand...

As a matter of fact my father coached high school football for number of years, and I ran track, cross-country and wrestled for 10 years. I can guarantee you that regardless of team sport or individual sport there is plenty of blame to go around when you lose and the only time you hear a coach assume all of the blame is in youth sports as a means of shielding the kids.

Sure a coach can have his players unprepared, or not do a good enough job teaching or motivating, but it's up to the players/athletes to deliver and execute, this is even more true in professional athletics where athletes are as much responsible for their preparation and execution as the coaching staff ... that's why they get paid the big bucks. If you've never met a coach or person who disagrees with your baseless assertion then I'd suggest you throw your net a little wider.

And it's just plain scary that you've coached anything; God have mercy on those kids.
 
How many players claim personal credit for a victory? None that I can think of.

I coach, and I know I've credited my coaching staff for coming up with a game-plan to win. Likewise, I've said that we failed to come up with a game-plan to win. I can't think of a coach I know that thinks he's only to credit when his team loses. It just makes no sense...
 
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