Kobe Bryant 35ppg/5rpg/4asp 27 efficiency rating Lakers 26-26 Allen Iverson 33.5ppg/3.5rpg/7asp 26.5 efficiency rating 76ers 25-26Dwyane Wade 27ppg/6rpg/6.8apg 27.6 effciency rating Heat 33-20LeBron James 31ppg/7rpg/6.6apg 29.8 effciency rating Cleveland 31-21 Why are people acting like Kobe Bryant is so far and away the MVP or the best player in the NBA? Come on, he's scoring more but all his other numbers are nothing amazing.
Because of this:OdomMihm[insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here][insert name here]
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Feb 16 2006, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I didn't see Tracy McGrady win any MVP's when he let those bad Magic teams to the playoffs.</div>That's because throughout those seasons, he had Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong (who was dropping 15+ a game), Troy Hudson, and Drew Gooden.Something nobody mentions...when Hudson, Armstrong, and Miller left the Magic, Orlando went from 42-40 (2002-2003) to 21-61 (2003-2004). Those three were very important to the Magic offense because they spread the floor. People tend to look at their stats and assume that McGrady was without legitimate teammates, but that's not the case.It's like the Sixers...that team could be a 50+ win team. Why? They have a slashing PG (Iverson), a shooter from the arc (Korver), a defensive-minded, explosive wing (Iggy), a second scoring option down low (Webber) and a defensive-minded center (Dalembert). That's a perfect combination of players in regards to their contrasting abilities...and if that team had a better coach (say, Brown or Jackson), they would be a top seed in the East...especially if they ran the triangle for a couple of years with various options like that.McGrady's Orlando teams had great chemistry together, and they helped T-Mac more than people realize. This Lakers squad has no second scoring option, and our best rebounder is also our point-forward, which means only one thing: when he's having a bad night, or he's injured, we lose 80% of our offense.What Kobe is doing with this team is similar to what T-Mac attempted in 2003-2004. However, the results, so far, have been different.
If you want an example of a well-built team, take a look at the Hornets right now. We all know that Chris Paul is not an MVP candidate. However, we saw what Emeka Okafor did last year with the Bobcats, and where it's true that Paul has better teammates, this Hornets team isn't stacked.David West was a scrub. Desmond Mason isn't an All-Star, not even close to it. JR Smith and Speedy Claxton aren't All-Stars; they aren't even stars. However, this team needed a pass-first PG...someone that can run the floor quickly, and put it out there every single night. You'd think Baron was the key, but that's not his forte. Chris Paul does just that, and he was the missing piece to the puzzle.As a result, you fill that void and insert an above-average coach in Byron Scott, and you've got a team that's 6th seed in the West with no All-Stars.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>That's because throughout those seasons, he had Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong (who was dropping 15+ a game), Troy Hudson, and Drew Gooden.</div>You have Lamar Odom who's efficiency rating is equal too Michael Redd, Shaquille O'Neal, and Ray Allen, you have a decent guy in Smush Parker, and Chris Mihm who did what Drew Gooden did in Orlando...and Brian Cook is decent... I think your cast is right around that talent level.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>David West was a scrub. Desmond Mason isn't an All-Star, not even close to it. JR Smith and Speedy Claxton aren't All-Stars; they aren't even stars. However, this team needed a pass-first PG...someone that can run the floor quickly, and put it out there every single night. You'd think Baron was the key, but that's not his forte. Chris Paul does just that, and he was the missing piece to the puzzle.</div> I think Paul has something like the Steve Nash affect...But the Hornets do have good players with P.J. Brown, Desmond Mason, Craig Claxton, David West, and filler Kirk Snyder.
[quote name='Real Deal' post='2023' date='Feb 16 2006, 01:19 PM']That's because throughout those seasons, he had Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong (who was dropping 15+ a game), Troy Hudson, and Drew Gooden.Something nobody mentions...when Hudson, Armstrong, and Miller left the Magic, Orlando went from 42-40 (2002-2003) to 21-61 (2003-2004). Those three were very important to the Magic offense because they spread the floor. People tend to look at their stats and assume that McGrady was without legitimate teammates, but that's not the case.[/quote]Mike Miller was traded just as he got good and he didn't play during their last playoff season, and Gooden didn't do much for Magic. Armstrong was good....but as good as Lamar is, Butler was last year, and then you have players like Atkins, Mihm, etc who are good players. T-Mac had teams around as talented as the lakers are this year. But, they did push pistons to 7 and always were pretty good. Triangle would be bad for Sixers...Iverson just wouldn't respong well to it, and I do not think Webber would fit in very well with his style of play. ODOM is MUCH more of a scoring option than ANY of T-Mac's teammates from any of his playoff runs or the last year. In past 2 years they have let go of some great talent who are doing very well on teams not centered around one player. T-Mac's teammates career years when they were with him. And do not think for one second this year's Kobe was any better offensively than T-mac in '02'03. And judging by T-Mac's stats, he carried them just as much, if not more, than Kobe has in the past 2 years. No, T-Mac's team in '03-'04 was much worse than Kobe's Laker team. T-Mac had no one except Juwan Howard, who is not capable of putting up more than 10-14 PPG. Lakers without Kobe would rape that years Magic without T-Mac. T-Mac's 2002-2003 team was much closer to this years Laker team. That team had Gooden, was is average, and T-Mac, along with Armstrong who was good. That year T-Mac carried that team with a year that IMO was more impressive than this years Kobe (by seasons end, Kobe will have 34PPG on 44% shooting to T-Mac 32 PPG on 46% shooting, T-Mac had one more assist, one more rebound, more steals, and less TO's). He also carried them to 7 games vs #1 seed Detroit that year. ANYWAY- Kobe deserves to be in 2nd place in MVP voting, next to Steve Nahs. Nash has just been...incredible. Some other nods would be LeBron, T-Mac (they are 0-16 when he doesn't play more than 1/4 of the game, and 22-14 with him, and many of those games were without Yao), and AI. Another rare nod would be wade. He has really carried the Heat from possible disaster to starting to get in form.
Wow, some of you are really in love with Kobe's teammates, huh? Odom is the only one worth mentioning, and he can't even score on a consistent basis.As I mentioned already, McGrady's Magic were more of a "team" than Kobe's Lakers. For one, the Magic didn't need to learn the triangle. That should be enough explanation already. You guys are comparing players, I'm comparing teams.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If kobe can lead this ball club to a higher than a 6th seed his the mvp. That is all i'm saying.</div> Oh definatly, if they are the seventh seed no way should be win MVP, but if he gets the prized 6th seed then he definatly deserves it.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, some of you are really in love with Kobe's teammates, huh? Odom is the only one worth mentioning, and he can't even score on a consistent basis.As I mentioned already, McGrady's Magic were more of a "team" than Kobe's Lakers. For one, the Magic didn't need to learn the triangle. That should be enough explanation already. You guys are comparing players, I'm comparing teams.</div> We aren't in love with Kobe's teammates, we are pointing out that they aren't much better than the Magic's.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, some of you are really in love with Kobe's teammates, huh? Odom is the only one worth mentioning, and he can't even score on a consistent basis.As I mentioned already, McGrady's Magic were more of a "team" than Kobe's Lakers. For one, the Magic didn't need to learn the triangle. That should be enough explanation already. You guys are comparing players, I'm comparing teams.</div>Smush is good, Mihm is solid, Cook is solid, Brown is average....last year when Kobe was on a team with much more talent than T-mac's Magic, and was playing T-Mac's role....<strike>they</strike> HE failed.Phil is one of the top 5 greatest coaches to ever coach the game. The triangle makes the Lakers a good team, and makes Kobe an amazing scorer. Last year with a regular offense they weren't as good as this year. And which Magic team are you talking about? His last one didn't have most players from the previous years, and had no talent NEAR the level of Odom.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Smush is good, Mihm is solid, Cook is solid, Brown is average....last year when Kobe was on a team with much more talent than T-mac's Magic, and was playing T-Mac's role....<strike>they</strike> HE failed.Phil is one of the top 5 greatest coaches to ever coach the game. The triangle makes the Lakers a good team, and makes Kobe an amazing scorer. Last year with a regular offense they weren't as good as this year. And which Magic team are you talking about? His last one didn't have most players from the previous years, and had no talent NEAR the level of Odom.</div>Again...the triangle was applied to last year's team at mid-season. The triangle offense is the toughest offense in the sport (to learn). Also, the Lakers were a sixth-seeded team in the Western Conference before Rudy left. You say Kobe failed? That's a joke.Here's what happened:Lakers maintain 6th seed until mid-season. Rudy Tomjanovich leaves, Hamblen takes over and applies the triangle offense over the ISO's. Kobe goes down with an injury in Cleveland. The Lakers can't learn the triangle without their leader, and when he comes back, things are getting ugly, and suddenly, Odom is out for the season. We lost our best rebounder AND our point-forward, which means the triangle will not work whatsoever, but Hamblen decides to keep it, and from the time Hamblen takes over until the end of the season, this 6th seeded Lakers team goes 10-29, and wins just 34 games for the season.Kobe didn't fail.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And which Magic team are you talking about? His last one didn't have most players from the previous years, and had no talent NEAR the level of Odom.</div>You are still comparing teammates. The Magic worked great as a team, the Lakers didn't...simple as that...doesn't matter if they didn't have an Odom on their team, they worked great together.Who's better: the Nets or Heat? Compare their players, separately. If you do it that way, the Heat should be the best team in the NBA. Ironically, they are 2-11 against division leaders. Why is this so? Don't they have better players than the Nets? The Suns?It's all about team chemistry. The Magic had the goods...they had many options, and players who didn't share the same strengths, so all things were covered. The Lakers don't have this. I don't see why you'd be comparing a Mike Miller to a Lamar Odom, or a Darrell Armstrong to a Smush Parker, because it was all about the team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, some of you are really in love with Kobe's teammates, huh? Odom is the only one worth mentioning, and he can't even score on a consistent basis.As I mentioned already, McGrady's Magic were more of a "team" than Kobe's Lakers. For one, the Magic didn't need to learn the triangle. That should be enough explanation already. You guys are comparing players, I'm comparing teams.</div>and why do you think that is? bc Kobe is leading them, and he is selfish.I would say this year's/last year's Lakers were just as talented as McGrady's Magic. None of the players you mentioned were really contributing except for DA. Odom is better than all of those players, and the other players aren't terrible. Plus, they have one of the best coaches in the NBA.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Again...the triangle was applied to last year's team at mid-season. The triangle offense is the toughest offense in the sport (to learn). Also, the Lakers were a sixth-seeded team in the Western Conference before Rudy left. You say Kobe failed? That's a joke.Here's what happened:Lakers maintain 6th seed until mid-season. Rudy Tomjanovich leaves, Hamblen takes over and applies the triangle offense over the ISO's. Kobe goes down with an injury in Cleveland. The Lakers can't learn the triangle without their leader, and when he comes back, things are getting ugly, and suddenly, Odom is out for the season. We lost our best rebounder AND our point-forward, which means the triangle will not work whatsoever, but Hamblen decides to keep it, and from the time Hamblen takes over until the end of the season, this 6th seeded Lakers team goes 10-29, and wins just 34 games for the season.Kobe didn't fail.</div>Even if they continued their play with Rudy T, they wouldn't have beat out the Rockets (who were in 8th seed when Rudy T left), Memphis, or Denver. And having by far your worst career year during your first year without a person you wanted to play 2nd fiddle to you is failing. Kobe didn't have a great statistical year, and his play angered teammates and it just wasn't pretty.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You are still comparing teammates. The Magic worked great as a team, the Lakers didn't...simple as that...doesn't matter if they didn't have an Odom on their team, they worked great together.Who's better: the Nets or Heat? Compare their players, separately. If you do it that way, the Heat should be the best team in the NBA. Ironically, they are 2-11 against division leaders. Why is this so? Don't they have better players than the Nets? The Suns?It's all about team chemistry. The Magic had the goods...they had many options, and players who didn't share the same strengths, so all things were covered. The Lakers don't have this. I don't see why you'd be comparing a Mike Miller to a Lamar Odom, or a Darrell Armstrong to a Smush Parker, because it was all about the team.</div>Yes they worked great together, but Lakers had more talent last year than the Magic playoff teams, and this year Kobe's team has more talent and chemistry than T-Mac's last magic team.Heat are far better than Nets, who are my home team. Shaq has been hurt a good part of the year, they went through a coaching change, Jason Williams has been hurt parts of the year, among other injuries. And even with all of that, they have a better record, and are rolling right now with Shaq finally coming back into form.I am comparing talent, and I never compared those individual talents to Lakers this year or last year.
The point is you can't compare talent. I've said this 400 times. If you want to do that, you can take Kobe, Odom and Mihm from the Lakers, and say they are better than the Hornets' Paul, Mason and Brown...because they are.Team chemistry. The Lakers have no identity, because none of them know their roles in the triangle. You can have an All-Star team, but if you don't know how to run the offense, you're screwed. How is that hard to understand?Forget it, Kobe Bryant will just have to drop 100, grab a top 3 seed, and average 37/8/8 before he gets the MVP award. It's not like I haven't done this plenty of times before; as a Laker fan, you get used to the hate.
I was comparing last years talent, before all the injuries. They had no identity last year largly because of Kobe. That is not hating, he just tried to do way too much. This year he taken a different role and let the game come to him....and they are better than last year. Kobe is the only reason lakers win or lose. I am sick of Kobe fans boo-hooing about how mnay people hate him. I love the guy, 3rd favorite player. I think this year he is the best swingman in the league. But the dude is far from perfect, and in this particular arguement, I feel that T-mac had a better season in '02-'03 than Kobe this year, and I feel T-Mac's Magic had less talent over the years than this year and last years lakers. I think Kobe is 2nd MVP in the L to Steve Nash, as he has done a better job than anyone else in history with making a bunch of nobody's that I enve rheard of or washed up players and making the team a #2 seed in the toughest conferance in the League.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think Kobe is 2nd MVP in the L to Steve Nash, as he has done a better job than anyone else in history with making a bunch of nobody's that I enve rheard of or washed up players and making the team a #2 seed in the toughest conferance in the League.</div>Yeah, Marion is a nobody. You've never heard of Kurt Thomas?Thomas > MihmMarion > Odom, Smush and Kwame together
Marion has had a great year, but unlike Kobe, Nash is not a scorer. Nash and Marion's combined PPG is only 3 points more than Kobe's. I don't think Thomas is better than Mihm, they are around equal. Mihm is a better scorer, but Thomas is better at defnese. But Nash has made people like Boris Diaw, Eddie House, and all of them look like all stars. All of the lakers success is based on Kobe's scoring, but Nash has made the players around him look like championship role players. If you took Nash off, only Marion would be getting over 10 or so PPG. And Odom is getting 16/6/6, the closest PF to getting a triple double per game. Odom is no Marion, but he is a very good player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 05:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Marion has had a great year, but unlike Kobe, Nash is not a scorer. Nash and Marion's combined PPG is only 3 points more than Kobe's. I don't think Thomas is better than Mihm, they are around equal. Mihm is a better scorer, but Thomas is better at defnese. But Nash has made people like Boris Diaw, Eddie House, and all of them look like all stars. All of the lakers success is based on Kobe's scoring, but Nash has made the players around him look like championship role players. If you took Nash off, only Marion would be getting over 10 or so PPG.</div>Marion at 10 PPG? Wow.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And Odom is getting 16/6/6, the closest PF to getting a triple double per game. Odom is no Marion, but he is a very good player.</div>Dude...what are you talking about? Odom is averaging 14/9/5.FYI - The Lakers are losing most of their games due to lack of defense, by the way. See the Hawks game last night.Odom, Mihm, Cook...these three absolutely SUCK defensively. Marion is 10x the player Odom is, defensively and in the scoring aspect...which are the two places where we lack the most.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Marion at 10 PPG? Wow.</div>Read my post. I said except for Marion, no one would be over 10PPG.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Dude...what are you talking about? Odom is averaging 14/9/5.FYI - The Lakers are losing most of their games due to lack of defense, by the way. See the Hawks game last night.Odom, Mihm, Cook...these three absolutely SUCK defensively. Marion is 10x the player Odom is, defensively and in the scoring aspect...which are the two places where we lack the most.</div>Oops, the 6 assists were in my head. I believe it is 15/9/and closer to 6, but I am too lazy to look, and not mcuh difference. I meant when Lakers win or lose, almost all the time it reflects Kobe's performance. When he doesn't get those 35PPG, they usually lose.Marion offensively is not 10x better than odom. Marion is THE scorer for the Suns, and only averages around 20PPG to Odom's 15PPG. Odom is a better passer and playmaker, but I agree, Marion destroys Odom defensively and rebounding.
