Marion is averaging 21.1 PPG, Odom at 13.9 PPG. That's a big difference.Nash is at 19.3 PPG...not far from Marion.There are five other players averaging double-digits in scoring on the Suns...but before you put that on Nash's shoulders, three of five are shooting 44% or less, which isn't exactly impressive.Funny thing is, these guys shooting 44% or less are actually shooting: James Jones, Raja Bell and Leandro Barbosa. The Lakers' shooters are missing wide-open shots (you know this if you watch the games) that are created off passes from...you guessed it...Kobe Bryant, not Lamar Odom.I seriously have not missed a Laker game since the Kobe/Shaq days. I coach basketball, so I watch every game that I can, even Raptors games. I'm telling you, the Lakers are terrible outside of Kobe...Odom included...and this team wouldn't do well with Nash at all.In fact, I wish there was a way to trade Kobe for Nash for a year, because the Lakers would miss every wide open shot from Nash, and they'd score 60 PPG total because they'd be missing their offensive load, along with their defensive lapses....and they'd be a 20-win team.
Well when some people keep talking about Kobe 24/7 it can get annoying....I guess you have not had to deal with Melo as long as I have....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Feb 16 2006, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well when some people keep talking about Kobe 24/7 it can get annoying....I guess you have not had to deal with Melo as long as I have.... </div>Do you still hear about Wilt's 100? I do...and there are a handful of people who actually saw it, and none of them are younger than 45.From the Showtime days, it took nearly a decade for us to get back into the NBA Finals. The early 90's were horrible...and people thought the Lakers were done for. We even missed the playoffs once. Years later, we win three straight.The franchise alone is something to talk about. People underrate Kobe Bryant, and it's uncalled for. I've watched a great deal of basketball, and even if I hated the man, I've never seen anyone like him. The only flaw you can really point out is that he can't trust his teammates...but he had no problem doing that with Shaq. I wouldn't trust guys named Lamar, Smush, Kwame, and Sasha either.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 06:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Marion is averaging 21.1 PPG, Odom at 13.9 PPG. That's a big difference.Nash is at 19.3 PPG...not far from Marion.There are five other players averaging double-digits in scoring on the Suns...but before you put that on Nash's shoulders, three of five are shooting 44% or less, which isn't exactly impressive.Funny thing is, these guys shooting 44% or less are actually shooting: James Jones, Raja Bell and Leandro Barbosa. The Lakers' shooters are missing wide-open shots (you know this if you watch the games) that are created off passes from...you guessed it...Kobe Bryant, not Lamar Odom.</div>But Odom can be a scorer if he needed to be. Look at his days with the heat, or one or 2 years with Clippers. he is not comfortable playing with Kobe. Nash gets them open looks, wide open looks. Much more so than Kobe OR Lamar does for the Lakers. And looking at the assists and actual games, Lamar is the one getting the assists, setting up offense, and Kobe does the scoring. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I seriously have not missed a Laker game since the Kobe/Shaq days. I coach basketball, so I watch every game that I can, even Raptors games. I'm telling you, the Lakers are terrible outside of Kobe...Odom included...and this team wouldn't do well with Nash at all.In fact, I wish there was a way to trade Kobe for Nash for a year, because the Lakers would miss every wide open shot from Nash, and they'd score 60 PPG total because they'd be missing their offensive load, along with their defensive lapses....and they'd be a 20-win team.</div>No, Nash is a different player than every single person in the NBA. He gets people open looks, wide open looks, both from 3 or in transition. And when they are not hitting the shots, he scores 30PPG (look at what he did to the Spurs last year in the playoffs). No matter the players he is around, whether it be a lot of journey men who can hit the 3 like on Phoenix (Boris Diaw, Eddie House, Barbosa, etc...) or superstars in the paint and midrange (Amare, Marion), he makes everyone better. Kobe does not make everyone better. Lamar doesn't, either.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='2293' date='Feb 16 2006, 06:45 PM']But Odom can be a scorer if he needed to be. Look at his days with the heat, or one or 2 years with Clippers. he is not comfortable playing with Kobe.[/quote]No man, he is not comfortable playing in the triangle.Just watch the games. He's the point-forward...when he makes the entry pass, what does he do? He stays in one spot. That's not the way to run the offense. He doesn't look to score; it has nothing to do with Kobe. Why doesn't he look to score? I have no idea...but he admitted it himself, if you remember correctly...he said he's not comfortable as a second option in the triangle, because he feels like his role is creating for others. Can he score? Sure...but that doesn't mean jack because we need him to, and he doesn't. That's because it's the triangle offense. Kobe is not the initiator. I don't see why this is relevant. He scores 30 PPG? I thought you said Nash wasn't a scorer? If Kobe isn't hitting his shots, who does the scoring?That's what this is all about.If Kobe doesn't make anyone better, why is Smush Parker still in the league, and why is Mihm playing his best basketball ever? How does Cook score 28 in a single game? He's pathetic.
[quote name='Real Deal' post='2298' date='Feb 16 2006, 07:51 PM']No man, he is not comfortable playing in the triangle.Just watch the games. He's the point-forward...when he makes the entry pass, what does he do? He stays in one spot. That's not the way to run the offense. He doesn't look to score; it has nothing to do with Kobe. Why doesn't he look to score? I have no idea...but he admitted it himself, if you remember correctly...he said he's not comfortable as a second option in the triangle, because he feels like his role is creating for others. Can he score? Sure...but that doesn't mean jack because we need him to, and he doesn't.[/quote]His role is playmaker. period. Yes, he should be scoring more, but without odom, Kobe would be having a pretty miserable season like last year statistically speaking. And even before the triangle he wasn't comfy with Kobe. Because you said this: And that is just downgrading what Lamar does and overexagering what Kobe does as a passer. I said when he needs to he scores, but like Lamar, his job and instinct is pass first. But when need be, he can actually score very well. I wasn't downgrading Kobe, I was just stating Nash and Kobe do not play the same role and are not remotely similar players. I believe the job Nash has done overshadows Kobe's this year, which is why I see him as MVP....now THAT is what it is all about, not scoring. Kobe takes a lot of pressure off others so they can get some open shots, but he doesn't make them better with his passing (4 APG) or playmaking. Lamar does a better job with that, which is why he is at that position.I am done discussing Kobe Bryant. I have said everything I needed to say. I think nash right this second deserves MVP. Kobe will be averaging 34/6/4 by seasons end, and I feel Nash deserves it more.
Here's the thing: you want the MVP award to be more about the team than the individual.50% individual, 50% team...that's how it should be looked at.Since 50% of the teams get into the playoffs, then that 50% should be reserved for playoff teams only...which is why I would love for that to be some sort of prerequisite for the MVP award, that you make the playoffs.After that, you take those candidates and, according to the level of difficulty that player was forced to play with, the overall team success (record), the individual performances that year and the overal abilities of that player, you determine the MVP.Kobe should edge out Nash.
Actually, I'm just trying to start debates...I'm waiting for some others to jump in, because I can't stay on the forums for that long (since I run my own).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here's the thing: you want the MVP award to be more about the team than the individual.50% individual, 50% team...that's how it should be looked at.Since 50% of the teams get into the playoffs, then that 50% should be reserved for playoff teams only...which is why I would love for that to be some sort of prerequisite for the MVP award, that you make the playoffs.After that, you take those candidates and, according to the level of difficulty that player was forced to play with, the overall team success (record), the individual performances that year and the overal abilities of that player, you determine the MVP.Kobe should edge out Nash.</div>Well, Suns are 2nd in the West, and lakers will probably not make playoffs as Rockets are gunning behind them, along with GSW, Jazz, etc...And Nash has had an amazing year. 19PPG and 11APG. If you took 7 of those assists away and made them into points, that would be between 33-40PPG/4APG...nearly the same as Kobe. Nash also has done more for the team IMO, as again, many of the journeymen who have done not much in their careers are looking like all stars. Doesn't make Nash a bette rplayer, but he is MVP, no doubt.
Nash's team...Marion - he's good regardless of having Nash on his teamBell - he's playing 10 more minutes per game than he did last year with the Jazz, and only scoring 2 more points per game, shooting a less percentage from the field this year than he did with the JazzThomas - averaging 9 less minutes, 3 less points, 2-3 less rebounds...than he did last year with the KnicksThe only one to really improve under Nash is Boris Diaw, but that's because he's playing nearly 16 more minutes per game and finally playing a position where he can expose others' weaknesses with his versatility.Guess what?Odom - 14/9/5Diaw - 12/7/6This should be enough to prove two things:1) Nash has really only improved one player, Diaw...and2) Diaw is as good as Odom...and he's not even the Suns' second best playerKobe for MVP.
Diaw is not as good as Odom, it is much Nash's influence. You also have Barbosa, House, etc...Nash for MVP!
If Kobe or Nash don't come away with it...has anyone thought about Dirk Nowitzki?13 times, a player has scored 25+ PPG and won 78% or more of his games in a season. 11 of those 13, that player has taken home the MVP.Dirk is on his way to that mark.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If Kobe or Nash don't come away with it...has anyone thought about Dirk Nowitzki?13 times, a player has scored 25+ PPG and won 78% or more of his games in a season. 11 of those 13, that player has taken home the MVP.</div>But Dirk has such a great supporting cast compared to Kobe/Nash. The question is do you give the MVP to someone whose great on a bad team, or someone whose good on a good team? And how much effect does that have on the player.
The award is MVP. Dirk has no use in it because he's team would still be a playoff team without him. The only people who are in the running are Nash, Lebron and Kobe. Nash is the mvp at the moment but let's wait until the next half of the season to see what unfolds.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rok @ Feb 16 2006, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But Dirk has such a great supporting cast compared to Kobe/Nash. The question is do you give the MVP to someone whose great on a bad team, or someone whose good on a good team? And how much effect does that have on the player.</div>Nash and Billups aren't scoring over 20 a game, by the way...no need to bring up my old post. Dirk is actually one of the better players in the NBA, Nash is one of the better TEAM players. There's a difference.
Haven't you guys noticed yet the the MVP award rarely goes to the player most valuable to his team, its usually the best player on the best team with exceptions like kobe, I mean you cant drop 81 and expect no one to take notice.
I feel Dirk is a bit underrated in the race. I think he's a better candidate than Kobe. Sorry, but i say MVP can go to a team that's a few games over .500 ...
I agree. Dirk is being underrated in the fans' eyes for the MVP award, but if the vote was taken today then he'd be a top three candidate, and has a shot at the award. If the Mavericks end up with the best record in the regular season, I don't see why Dirk shouldn't take the award, even with the stellar supporting cast he has around him.And, I believe that if you are including Kobe Bryant in the race for MVP, then Allen Iverson most certainly should be included as well.
