People always wonder who is the best player from the '96 draft. We all know it comes down to AI and Kobe. I've been thinking about it latley and thinking that it could be Kobe. But i have recentl read an article in Slam Magazine and it made me realize that AI is better. If you look back during the time when those players' teams were contenders, Kobe had a better team than AI. Even though the Sixers lost to the Lakers in the Finals in '01, you can see that the supporting cast to compliment AI was very weak. It consisted of players like Aaron McKie, Raja Bell,George Lynch, Eric Snow, Dkembe Mutombo and Derick Colman. Kobe had the most dominant center in history and a stronger supporting cast. So for Ai to carry the team on his back like that makes him the better player. Kobe is showing that he cannot do that type of thing. Both teams are hovering around .500. The reason AI has not been doing that this year and last is because he has a better supporting cast.To sum it up, Kobe has the talent, and AI has the IQ and the skill.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheAnalyst @ Feb 16 2006, 11:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>People always wonder who is the best player from the '96 draft. We all know it comes down to AI and Kobe. I've been thinking about it latley and thinking that it could be Kobe. But i have recentl read an article in Slam Magazine and it made me realize that AI is better. If you look back during the time when those players' teams were contenders, Kobe had a better team than AI. Even though the Sixers lost to the Lakers in the Finals in '01, you can see that the supporting cast to compliment AI was very weak. It consisted of players like Aaron McKie, Raja Bell,George Lynch, Eric Snow, Dkembe Mutombo and Derick Colman. Kobe had the most dominant center in history and a stronger supporting cast. So for Ai to carry the team on his back like that makes him the better player. Kobe is showing that he cannot do that type of thing. Both teams are hovering around .500. The reason AI has not been doing that this year and last is because he has a better supporting cast.To sum it up, Kobe has the talent, and AI has the IQ and the skill.</div>Alright seriously, I think the argument that one player had a better supporting cast than another should just be eliminated from these boards. It's probably the dumbest argument you can make to show how good a player is. And anyway kobe has a worse team now than AI had then. And I actually did read that article and slam, and as much as I love the mag for its player analysis, I almost never agree with them when they talk about debatable topics. Kobe is better than AI right now and will have a better career than AI PERIOD.
I would trade every single player on the Lakers' roster to have Webber and Iguodala.By the way, the Sixers are under .500 and the Lakers are at .500...with Philly playing the Bobcats, Celtics, and Magic four times a year. In the West, you can get beat by anyone, anytime...and the worst team used to be the Hornets until they beat up on everyone.I'd hate to play the Spurs, Mavs, Suns, Clippers, and Nuggets four times a year.Philly plays the Pistons, Nets and Heat four times...Without Iverson, the Sixers were 2-1, I believe...and Webber showed that if he would just get the ball in an offense that favors him, the Sixers would be winning more. Can't say the same for Odom, who doesn't want the ball in an offense that doesn't favor him at all.All signs point to #8.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delonte4Prez @ Feb 16 2006, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Alright seriously, I think the argument that one player had a better supporting cast than another should just be eliminated from these boards. It's probably the dumbest argument you can make to show how good a player is. And anyway kobe has a worse team now than AI had then. And I actually did read that article and slam, and as much as I love the mag for its player analysis, I almost never agree with them when they talk about debatable topics. Kobe is better than AI right now and will have a better career than AI PERIOD.</div>But unlike Kobe, AI brought that team to the championship....I will bet all my money Lakers won't make playoffs this year.In this arguement I'll take....ehh....tough one. Well, I really don't know. I think I'll take AI. Right now he is having just as good of a year as Kobe, as he is the full playmaker on the Sixers and having a career year. 33PPG and like 7 APG, to go with the usual 2 SPG and pretty poor FG %. Both players are great in clutch situation, but Kobe gets that advantage. Both are great shooters and both drive the lane, but I think as a pure scorer, I'll take AI. AI is a better passer, but Kobe is a better rebounder. Kobe is a better defender (although AI isn't a slouch) and AI has better defensive stats and has led terrible teams to pretty deep in the playoffs, while Kobe still needs to prove he can win without Shaq. REALLY tough debate, but AI to me gets the very slight advantage because he has proven to me he can lead and bring his team to places that I do not believe Kobe could (and still hasn't with Shaq-less Lakers).
If we're talking about purely a head-to-head comparison, with team success, etc., thrown aside, then the only thing that Kobe has over AI is a better jumper. Other than that the two are pretty even.I also read the SLAM article, and I agree with part of their analysis as well, however I think they also took into consideration the cultural impact both players had on the game as well, and AI clearly had a bigger cultural impact than Kobe.Right now Philly on paper has a squad capable of being a top 4 seed in the East, but various things have led to this disappointing season.If you take into account the supporting cast Iverson had around him, people vastly underrate that squad. You had a DPOY, Sixth Man of the Year and the Coach of the Year. All those guys knew how to fill their role, whereas right now people are not sure as to what their roles are, etc. Thats the kind of team AI would work best with: a team full of defensive-minded players who don't mind to do the dirty work.If you take into account their entire career, factoring everything in, I'd take AI despite Kobe's three rings.
Lead where? When he lead his team to the nba finals he was playing in the pathetic eastern conference. He also had Larry brown who forced Ai to play defense. Ratliff and all the other players were playing out of their minds. Also trading for the dopy is something.And why does everyone say kobe can't lead his team without shaq and shaq can? Maybe Shaq went off to Miami which had a rising star in Wade? Kobe was left with a team that doesn't know who the 2nd option is. How many players dont know there 2nd option game in game out?This season proves one thing. Allen iverson has a better team than Kobe, A shotblocler, an allstar PF, a great shooter, a good defensive player. But yet there sucking it up and are under .500. Where is Allen iverson's so called leadership? Ai also is a problem on d, how many times has he let his guy just go past him? Is it a co-incidence that the sixers played better team defense when Ai was out? I dont' think so.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Feb 17 2006, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lead where? When he lead his team to the nba finals he was playing in the pathetic eastern conference. He also had Larry brown who forced Ai to play defense. Ratliff and all the other players were playing out of their minds. Also trading for the dopy is something.And why does everyone say kobe can't lead his team without shaq and shaq can? Maybe Shaq went off to Miami which had a rising star in Wade? Kobe was left with a team that doesn't know who the 2nd option is. How many players dont know there 2nd option game in game out?This season proves one thing. Allen iverson has a better team than Kobe, A shotblocler, an allstar PF, a great shooter, a good defensive player. But yet there sucking it up and are under .500. Where is Allen iverson's so called leadership? Ai also is a problem on d, how many times has he let his guy just go past him? Is it a co-incidence that the sixers played better team defense when Ai was out? I dont' think so.</div>Doesn't matter how pathetic it was, it was still very impressive to take a bunch of role players and no other truly great players to the Finals. Kobe chose to stay with lakers. If he wanted, he could have went to the Clips with Elton Brand, or could have taken a paycut like KG did to get some FA. And Shaq led the Lakers to those championships, led the magic in their runs, but Wade has led the Heat. Shaq from mid 90's-2002 was just nasty and was the oncourt floor general and demanded it. Kobe always hit the game winners, but Shaq was the guy who 90% of the time took over games and dominated everyone. Kobe last year had his worst year ever, and this year Lamar has run the offense, with Kobe being a scorer. Kobe is having an amazing year, but they still are just .500, and will probably not make the playoffs considering all the teams on an upswing. AI has played his best bball ever this year. It isn't his fault Webber is slower and has less hops than my dead grandmother, Korver is more inconsistent than most anyone else in the NBA, and Iggy still is learning how to play offense. It isn't his fault the team isn't playing great.
So in one paragraph you state that kobe's putting up great stats but his team .500 and then in the next one say Ai is playing his best ball but his team sucks? Excuse me but Kobe's team sucks also. Atleast the sixers have a person they can call a 2nd option. There not losing because of unable tp put points on the board, there losing because of team defense. Ai is part of the problem and if you think otherwise then when the sixers play next watch it.So if you say ai's team sucks, it isn't his problem than the same has to be said for kobe. Can't work both ways.And yes Shaq was more important to the lakers but kobe, Phil and all the other role players also had a huge reason why we won. If horry didn't hit that 3 would be talking about Kings dynasty now? I think we would. Fate helped us a little bit but the whole team played well. The only thing the team lacked was a defensive stopper.
Both AI and Kobe don't have good teams this year. On paper the Sixers look good, but they are far from the team everybody thinks they are. Their defense is horrible, and AI plays a part in that, yes, but there are a lot of other things wrong with that team.AI has led his team deep into the playoffs without a true second option, whereas Kobe has not had the opportunity to show that he can... yet.
Wow, Dikembe was a role player in 2001?Do you know he was the DPOY? Dikembe and his Nuggets beat the top-seeded Sonics in the mid-90's in the first round of the playoffs, and it wasn't like Dikembe was declining since then, being that he still won the DPOY award.By the way, Shaq was the force, Kobe held it together. I've got a huge line of stats to prove it all in the big games...anyone who has seen my posts at Clublakers will agree, I've gone through this many, many times already. When Shaq went down against the Pacers, Kobe stayed on the court with a bad ankle and won the game. Against the Mavs, down by more than two decades in the 4th, Kobe brought the Lakers back to win the game. Shaq, without Kobe, lost to the Hawks two years ago...and in the same season, when Shaq went down, Kobe and the Lakers destroyed the Hawks by 46 points, 113-67. When Kobe drained teams for 9-straight 40+ point games, the Lakers went 7-2 in that streak. Against the Blazers in the final game of the season two years ago, to determine if the Lakers win the Pacific or not, Kobe forced overtime with a buzzer-beating three...then won the game with a fadeaway buzzer-beating three...and all Shaq did was stand and cheer.I've got about 50 different instances to prove that Kobe won the games. Shaq may have dominated Todd MacCulloch, Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutombo in those NBA Finals games for the Finals MVP, but Kobe held his own against the toughest backcourts, which included Jason Kidd, Allen Iverson and Reggie Miller.You can go on and on about Kobe missing Shaq, but remember...Shaq has yet to win without Kobe...and he doesn't have much time to do it, either. When Shaq came to LA in 1996, the Lakers were already a 53-win team in 1995. Shaq improved them...to only 56 wins...three more.Kobe can't do it without O'Neal. Shaq can't do it without Kobe. However, it's only been 1 1/2 seasons that Kobe has been without Shaq...so I wouldn't be so quick to judge KB in that facet just yet.
Shaq went to a miami team which had a rising star in dwayne wade. Shaq saw the potential and ran off to play with another guard who could take the weight off his shoulders.And some people say kobe hasn't lead his team to the playoffs whilst being the first option? Um...Kobe was the first option in 2003& 2004.
I'd trade Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown for Kyle Kover and Andre. This would give Kobe teamates that can score so he can relax. Also it would give Brian Cook a chance to prove himself more as a starting Power Forward and they can move Chris Mim down to PF as well. It would work out well for both sides. AI and Lamor Odom could work pretty well together imo. As for Kwame once he's off LA I don't care what they do with him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Feb 17 2006, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So in one paragraph you state that kobe's putting up great stats but his team .500 and then in the next one say Ai is playing his best ball but his team sucks? Excuse me but Kobe's team sucks also. Atleast the sixers have a person they can call a 2nd option. There not losing because of unable tp put points on the board, there losing because of team defense. Ai is part of the problem and if you think otherwise then when the sixers play next watch it.So if you say ai's team sucks, it isn't his problem than the same has to be said for kobe. Can't work both ways.And yes Shaq was more important to the lakers but kobe, Phil and all the other role players also had a huge reason why we won. If horry didn't hit that 3 would be talking about Kings dynasty now? I think we would. Fate helped us a little bit but the whole team played well. The only thing the team lacked was a defensive stopper.</div>I would hardly call Webber a reliable 2nd option. Despite what you may say, lamar is getting around 15/6/6 this year, and is the O-N-L-Y reason Kobe is having a 35PPG season. If Kobe had to be the playmaker like AI is, he'd be having as bad of a season as he had last year. 2nd option isn't just scoring (which Lamar can do). Lakers and Sixers are comparable, but unlike Kobe, AI doesn't have a coach who knows what he does best, and AI has been put in a positon that is worse than Kobe's. You also took my paragraph out of context. I was stating what Kobe could have went to compared to what he has now, and that it is his fault he is in LA. I also never said the role players weren't important in lakers run, they were the most important. But, Shaq was the leader and main reason they won, not Kobe. Without Shaq, Kobe wouldn't have made it to the Fianls. AI led a team much less talented than the Lakers to the finals, and put up a decent fight.Real Deal:I never said Kobe didn't do his share. But, Shaq always got Kobe to the point where he would take game winning shots. And with your examples I could take countless other players (including AI) and show they did very similar things. Shaq lost to the Hawks....so did Detroit this year...your point? And don't say Shaq hasn't won without Kobe. If Wade was healthy last game of the playoffs, if Shaq was healthy, and they got Shaq the ball more in the 4th, they would have beat the Pistons in the 7th game. Kobe had a worse record than Clippers last year and didn't make the playoffs. Kobe had the same oppertunity Shaq did last year to go to a playoff team and get them far, but instead he wanted to be king and went to LA...despite them losing. That isn't what this thread is about, I wa sjust replying to something Melo said. I still think AI has the very slight advantage, because like the Bron and Kobe topic, AI is slightly more proven of the 2 in select situations. I think in 1 or 2 years when Kobe proves himself more, he will be the better of the 2 in my eyes.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And don't say Shaq hasn't won without Kobe. If Wade was healthy last game of the playoffs, if Shaq was healthy, and they got Shaq the ball more in the 4th, they would have beat the Pistons in the 7th game. Kobe had a worse record than Clippers last year and didn't make the playoffs. Kobe had the same oppertunity Shaq did last year to go to a playoff team and get them far, but instead he wanted to be king and went to LA...despite them losing. That isn't what this thread is about, I wa sjust replying to something Melo said. I still think AI has the very slight advantage, because like the Bron and Kobe topic, AI is slightly more proven of the 2 in select situations. I think in 1 or 2 years when Kobe proves himself more, he will be the better of the 2 in my eyes.</div>1) You said IF Wade was healthy, IF Shaq was healthy and IF Shaq had the ball more...but then you bring up Kobe's terrible season last year and say nothing about his injury, or Odom's injury. You're being a hypocrite. Either consider both injuries to the teams, or consider neither. Either way you twist it, Kobe and Shaq both lost.2) Kobe staying on the Lakers is called dedication. Shaq went to a better team because it's obvious that his career is almost over; his stats are much worse, and he's declining. What did Malone and Payton do two years ago? That's right...they came to the Lakers. Personally, I didn't like it...because in my opinion, you earn your rings...or you just don't deserve one.3) Iverson has proven more than Kobe? What are you talking about? Other than scoring titles, I don't see where Iverson has proven he is better than Kobe. Drop AI into the Western Conference with the Sixers, and he misses the playoffs, guaranteed.4) For the record, Webber is a better player (and second option) than Odom. He was a legit candidate for MVP back when the Kings won 60+ games, and he hasn't declined as much as people believe since then...the bad knees keep him from dunking, but he's still capable of averaging more than 20 a game. Odom can't even do that...not even without Kobe.
This is like my favourite debate.ima make it simple:before: AIthis season: Kobeyou might say, hey Kobe has more rings and AI has none, AI had only one actually season with a good supporting cast with snow,Micckie and th DPOY with Mutumbo. they also had Larry Brown.BUt guess what? the Lakers had Shaq, Phil Jackson whos da best coach ever, and Kobe. you cant beat that with what AI had.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 21 2006, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1) You said IF Wade was healthy, IF Shaq was healthy and IF Shaq had the ball more...but then you bring up Kobe's terrible season last year and say nothing about his injury, or Odom's injury. You're being a hypocrite. Either consider both injuries to the teams, or consider neither. Either way you twist it, Kobe and Shaq both lost.2) Kobe staying on the Lakers is called dedication. Shaq went to a better team because it's obvious that his career is almost over; his stats are much worse, and he's declining. What did Malone and Payton do two years ago? That's right...they came to the Lakers. Personally, I didn't like it...because in my opinion, you earn your rings...or you just don't deserve one.3) Iverson has proven more than Kobe? What are you talking about? Other than scoring titles, I don't see where Iverson has proven he is better than Kobe. Drop AI into the Western Conference with the Sixers, and he misses the playoffs, guaranteed.4) For the record, Webber is a better player (and second option) than Odom. He was a legit candidate for MVP back when the Kings won 60+ games, and he hasn't declined as much as people believe since then...the bad knees keep him from dunking, but he's still capable of averaging more than 20 a game. Odom can't even do that...not even without Kobe.</div>1) Shaq made Wade much better (and gave him more confidence), and he led his team to the playoffs, all the way to the 7th game of the ECF. That is much more impressive than not making playoffs and being 10th. Also, lakers wouldn't have made the playoffs even if Rudy T was healthy and Kobe was healthy all season. Rockets weren't in playoff chase when LA declined, and then they made 5th seed. Same with Grizzlies and Denver. And again, even if they got 8th seed, they wouldn't have gone anywhere. 2) Kobe staying in LA is called selfishness. Shaq went to a better team to win a 'chip. Period. And when Shaq was young and changed teams, he went to a 50 win Lakers team. Kobe stayed in LA, maxed out his contract, all for himself. Kobe will never win a ring in LA unless a huge superstar like Shaq comes in, so I have no idea why you are complaining about people earning their rings.3) AI has proven to lead average teams to the playoffs and Finals. Kobe still hasn't shown anything. His team is only .500 and with the Jazz, Rockets, and Warriors biting their <Censored>, they probably won't even make the playoffs this year. What if MJ was in today's NBA? What ifBird had hops? Like you said before, what if's don't matter. AI still did all of that. Kobe has lots to prove in terms of leadership and ability to carry a team to somewhere.4) Webber is not the same player as he was when he is a King. He is barely a factor anymore with Philly. Yes he has the occasional great game, but he is not a consistent legit 2nd option. Ever since the heyday of Kings, he has had to use a decent jumpshot and passing skills to get the job done. Same with lamar to a degree, but unlike Lamar, Webber is not the playmaker for Sixers, so he doesn't have much use and isn't a viable scorer, so he isn't a great 2nd option. I feel AI should be the designated scorer like Kobe, but Maurice Cheeks wants him as playmaker and Webber just as a 2nd option at scorer. Doesn't work.
Oviously Kobe Bryant. This guy is alot better than A.I. He is good but cannot beat Kobe Bryant. Kobe has to much in him for other players to have.
