hahaha Bush says he doesn't believe in the Bible, does believe in evolution

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Drink Your Milkshake, Dec 11, 2008.

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  1. Shooter

    Shooter Unanimously Great

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    Have you ever noticed that when a noted atheist (or Godless person) commits a heinous crime, you don't hear people say, "Geez, look at that horrible atheist. I don't want to be one of those!" But when a "Christian" does something horrible, the same people say, "Christians are all hypocrites. I want nothing to do with that religion."

    The fact is, many people are looking for an excuse NOT to be a Christian, because they don't like the idea of having to follow the moral and ethical guidelines presented in the Bible, or to change their life in any way.
     
    Shooter, Dec 17, 2008
    #161
  2. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    That's because atheist criminals rarely, if ever, list their lack of religion as an excuse or cause of their crime.

    Whereas you frequently hear people list "teachings" of their religion as the reason they did what they did.

    barfo
     
    barfo, Dec 17, 2008
    #162
  3. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    A completely "natural" environment for a bull, certainly.

    Quiz time! Oh boy!

    But wait, what does that have to do with the point you were making? Unless I misunderstood you, you were saying that life would be more "Machiavellian" without religion. What do his thoughts on religion have to do with whether your point is or isn't valid, unless you are just defining the absence of religion as Machiavellian.

    barfo
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2008
    barfo, Dec 17, 2008
    #163
  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I think what Machiavelli believed about religion is important, because guys like him would have been the major influence on things without it. Actually, that IS what he believed about religion ;)

    But maybe there is some proof in the proverbial pudding. As the influence of the Church has declined over the past 500 years, society has become more Machiavellian - or am I misreading your own post?
     
    Denny Crane, Dec 18, 2008
    #164
  5. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    To back up Shooter's point and to counter one of Maris' (about the church being filled with sex offenders):

    Fugitive sex offender from Plano arrested in New Mexico
    [SIZE=-1]Dallas Morning News, TX - <nobr>6 hours ago</nobr>[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]By WENDY HUNDLEY / The Dallas Morning News A convicted sex offender and former Plano school district teacher of the year has been arrested in New Mexico ...
    [/SIZE]

    Former teacher pleads guilty to sex with student
    [SIZE=-1]Austin American-Statesman, TX - <nobr>11 hours ago</nobr>[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]... and a fine of up to $10000 for a school employee to have sex with a student attending his or her school if the student is not the teacher's spouse. ...

    [/SIZE]Denver teacher caught in sex sting
    [SIZE=-1]Denver Post, CO - <nobr>13 hours ago</nobr>[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]By Tom McGhee An elementary and middle school music teacher was arrested after attempting a crude Internet seduction of a detective who posed as a young ...

    [/SIZE]Clinton band teacher arrested in sex sting
    [SIZE=-1]Chicago Tribune, United States - <nobr>Dec 16, 2008</nobr>[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]AP DAVENPORT, Iowa - A Clinton High School band teacher has been arrested on federal charges of attempting to entice a minor to engage in illicit sexual ...[/SIZE]

    Former Teacher Indicted On Sex Charges
    [SIZE=-1]WYMT, KY - <nobr>Dec 16, 2008</nobr>[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]A former Lexington junior high school teacher now faces sodomy and rape charges stemming from the 1970's. The Lexington Herald leader reports a grand jury ...

    [/SIZE]Grievance Commission appeals Gorcyca's clearance in sex assault case
    [SIZE=-1]DetNews.com, MI - <nobr>Dec 16, 2008</nobr>[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Gorcyca had described the teacher, James Norman Perry, as a pedophile in a radio interview after Perry had been convicted and was awaiting sentencing. ...

    I could post dozens of these from the past few days. There's a real epidemic of this kind of thing going on with the separation of church and state and all.
    [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
     
    Denny Crane, Dec 18, 2008
    #165
  6. crowTrobot

    crowTrobot die comcast

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    christians frequently say non-christians do bad things because of lack of christian moral standards. i hear that all the time.

    the number of people who secretly believe the bible is true but reject it anyway is relatively small. the vast majority on non-christians don't believe because they either were raised in another religion that teaches the bible is false, or because they've come to that conclusions based on a rational view of evidence.
     
    crowTrobot, Dec 18, 2008
    #166
  7. crowTrobot

    crowTrobot die comcast

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    have you read the OT? your god is described as a patently unjust sadistic genocidal megalomaniac who takes every opportunity to slaughter innocent children.
     
    crowTrobot, Dec 18, 2008
    #167
  8. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    I've read the Bible cover to cover multiple times. He's not "described" as anything; it's His history given to His chosen to write down. I don't pretend to know what God's up to, other than what He's told me in the Bible. If God doesn't meet with your standards of fairness, nothing I'm going to say can change that.

    (BTW: He didn't take "every opportunity" to slaughter innocent children. First, there isn't any such thing as "innocent". We can thank Adam and Eve for that. And if you'd like me to go through the Bible and talk about the Egyptian firstborn, or the Amalekites and Philistines vs. the Moabites, or how the Judaic/Samaric split was dealt with by the Egyptians, Babylonians and Persians, we can do that offline. Your description above is not rooted in truth, but distortion.)

    And what that is is that 1) He created the universe and everything in it. 2) There was rebellion. 3) As a wholly perfect and wholly just God, He could not stand the rebellion or sin that came with it. 4) He was about to wipe everything out and start over a few times, but out of mercy saved some and made a covenant that He wouldn't ever wipe out Abraham's line -- physically (Jews, read Genesis) or spiritually (Gentiles; multiple places in the NT). That's why Jesus is foretold throughout the OT and proclaimed throughout the NT. It's all one history.
     
    BrianFromWA, Dec 18, 2008
    #168
  9. Shooter

    Shooter Unanimously Great

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    How could you possibly know that?

    I personally know many, many people who were raised Christian and still believe in the Bible, but are choosing to live their lives in a totally different way just because it's more pleasurable, convenient, and easy . . . I bet you do, too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
    Shooter, Dec 18, 2008
    #169
  10. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    But is there cause and effect here? Technology advanced over the past 500 years - is that due to the decline of the Church? People are taller now - is that due to the decline of the Church?

    I think I'll give up now, I'm not quite sure what we are arguing about, or which side I'm on... :)

    barfo
     
    barfo, Dec 18, 2008
    #170
  11. Shooter

    Shooter Unanimously Great

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    That happens occasionally, but far more often the offender just happens to be a Christian, and the press and others jump all over it as if it proves something. What's absurd is the idea that because a member of a group turns out to be a hypocrite, that therefore all members of that group are hypocrites. Or, even worse, that the teachings of the group somehow lead people to commit crimes or act irresponsibly--when in fact just the opposite is true.

    There is overwhelming evidence that becoming a Christian more often than not improves one's moral standards and awareness of right and wrong, while abandoning God and any form of spirituality ultimately degrades one's moral sensitivity.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
    Shooter, Dec 18, 2008
    #171
  12. crowTrobot

    crowTrobot die comcast

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    he doesn't meet my standards of being likely to exist. he is described as a cruel jealous vindictive tyrant by the authors of OT books because that was how gods in general were viewed in those times.

    my description of the nature of god in OT stories is accurate. of course it's not rooted in "truth", though, because straightforward archeological/anthropological evidence shows that most of it never happened.
     
    crowTrobot, Dec 18, 2008
    #172
  13. crowTrobot

    crowTrobot die comcast

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    yes, but those people generally still consider themselves christians - either christians gone bad, or christians that have chosen not to take the basic traditional tenets of christianity seriously, but still christians of some sort.

    the way your previous post was worded implied that many people who say they don't believe the bible are secretly compelled by it, which is what i was disputing. sorry if that's not what you meant.
     
    crowTrobot, Dec 18, 2008
    #173
  14. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    I don't remember making such a point, but I don't see how this counters it at all anyway.

    Now that you bring it up, the Church has long been a haven and a sanctuary for despicable criminals of all walks of life, and an opponent of the enforcement of man-made laws in general.
     
    MARIS61, Dec 18, 2008
    #174
  15. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    Most absurd assumption ever promoted by Christianity.

    I know many innocent people, and obviously most children are innocent.

    The idea of inheriting guilt through heredity would be laughable if so many had not been hurt by the notion.

    Applied in our legal system, all relatives of a murderer would be put to death along with the murderer.

    It fails in every application possible. I am not responsible for those who have murdered before me, those who have had slaves, those who have attacked countries for profit.

    Guilt lies on the guilty, "Gods" are the guiltiest of all, and the innocent children are far greater than any "God".
     
    MARIS61, Dec 18, 2008
    #175
  16. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    Your definition of "innocent" is different than that of God's. That's fine. Doesn't make it absurd. It points out the need for everyone to have someone save them from the eternal repercussions of their actions. If you believe that, of course.

    You are responsible for your own actions, true. So are children. Just because they're cute doesn't mean they aren't selfish, don't lie, don't attack others to get what they want, etc. All of those are actions which warrant "hell" (which Biblically is defined as "eternal separation from God", not some fiery pit manned by an overseer with horns and a pitchfork: Thanks, Milton), unless you believe that someone else paid the price for you. That's Christianity, in a nutshell.

    You aren't guilty by association (though many countries and the OT would disagree with you), but you're incapable of being perfect. And if you're not perfect, you don't get to hang out eternally with the Imaginary Friend. Unless you believe someone else paid the price for you.

    And of all the ideas "assumed' by Christianity (the Triune God, the Immaculate Conception, the Resurrection, Pentecost, the Transferrance of Grace, the Revelation Result), you think that "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" is the most laughable? Really?
     
    BrianFromWA, Dec 18, 2008
    #176
  17. DaRizzle

    DaRizzle BLAKER

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    This cracked me up....now THAT glass is half full...lol geez
     
    DaRizzle, Dec 18, 2008
    #177
  18. crowTrobot

    crowTrobot die comcast

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    the concept of original sin and the biblical plan of salvation are logically and morally ludicrous. they make absolutely no sense on any level, and christians have to constantly make silly excuses to defend them as you are doing. it's the type of superstitious nonsense you would expect from primitive humans, and far from what you would logically expect from a supposedly morally transcendent beneficent creator.
     
    crowTrobot, Dec 18, 2008
    #178
  19. Drink Your Milkshake

    Drink Your Milkshake Suspended

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    Christians always claim people not having Jesus is the reason for their problems. It's their favorite past time and it makes them feel better about themselves.
     
    Drink Your Milkshake, Dec 18, 2008
    #179
  20. Drink Your Milkshake

    Drink Your Milkshake Suspended

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    $100,000? Are you kidding? Christianity has been very profitable for Bush. Without the Christian vote (which oddly is still the only group of people in America still supporting the terrorist) Bush doesn't get elected. He fooled you *edited* to get what he wanted.

    The fortunes he's made from you Christian *edited* is uncountable.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2008
    Drink Your Milkshake, Dec 18, 2008
    #180
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