Is shooting a lot of three-pointers a bad thing?

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Minstrel, Dec 31, 2008.

  1. Minstrel

    Minstrel Top Of The Pops Global Moderator

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    Hello darkness, my old friend
    This is an article from Basketball Prospectus, explaining the unexpected success of the Atlanta Hawks (unexpected considering they lost Josh Childress, drafted no one and added no major free agents). It's about the Hawks, but it largely discusses the surprising correlation between shooting a lot of three-pointers and offensive success.

    An excerpt:

    There's more, including a contrast with the Philadelphia Sixers, who have been disappointing and are not taking many three-pointers as a percentage of their field goal attempts.

    http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=487
     
  2. BatumKaboom

    BatumKaboom Suspended

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    Not if you make them!
     
  3. GoBlazersGo

    GoBlazersGo Well-Known Member

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    [/thread] :cheers:
     
  4. BalancedMan

    BalancedMan That's out of context....

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    A big part is "if you shoot them well". The Hawks added several good outside shooters this last offseason, which is why they are more likely to shoot and made the three. I read the article a few days ago and I don't think threes are good if they are made at a good clip. 40% 3PT is 60% 2PT.
     
  5. bobf

    bobf Well-Known Member

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    Two teams

    Team A shoots all 3 pointers and makes 1/3 of them.
    Team B shoots all 2 pointers and makes 1/2 of them.

    Each team gets 70% of the defensive rebounds and 30% of the offensive rebounds.

    There are no turnovers, fouls, etc. just shots and rebounds.

    Who is expected to win?
     
  6. Iwatas

    Iwatas Blazers Fan

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    Each team scores 1 point each possession, with an equal number of possessions (same rebound rate for both teams).

    Seems they should both score the same. What is the flaw?
     
  7. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    Team A scores the same as Team B in the first iteration (1st shot), but then gets a larger number of offensive rebounds, and converting at the same rate would start to pull away.

    Just to use 100 possessions, A scores 100 on 33.3 made 3ptFG. Team B scores 100 on 50 made FGs. But A gets 30% of the 67 offensive rebounds (20) and converts 6.67 of those into made 3ptFG (still shooting 33.3%, remember?) for 20 points, while Team B scores 50% of it's 15 offensive rebounds for 7.5 made FGs and 15 points. Now it's 120-115 Team A. But A got 30% of it's "second shot" rebounds, as did B...continue out to 3 iterations and it's 124-118 Team A.
     
  8. bobf

    bobf Well-Known Member

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    Yup... another way to solve it.

    A = points per possession team A
    B = points per possession team B

    A = prob(make) x 3 + prob(miss) x ORB% x A
    A = (1/3) x 3 + (2/3) x 0.3 x A
    A = 1 + 0.2A
    A = 1.25

    B = prob(make) x 2 + prob(miss) x ORB% x B
    B = (1/2) x 2 + (1/2) x 0.3 x B
    B = 1 + 0.15B
    B = 1.1765

    So the final score would be like 125 to 118

    So 3 pointers have a built-in advantage to offset the long rebound.
     
  9. bobf

    bobf Well-Known Member

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    They will have an equal number of major possessions but not an equal number of minor possessions and shots.
    Minor possessions = Major possessions + Offensive Rebounds
    Shots = Minor possessions
    Points = Shots (on average)

    The team that misses the most shots will get the most offensive rebounds.
     
  10. Iwatas

    Iwatas Blazers Fan

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    Thanks. Well explained!
     
  11. LameR

    LameR Ha Seung-Jin Approved!

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    Also, it's more likely for the two-point shooting team to end up with free throws than the three-point shooting team.
     
  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Don't offensive rebounds count as another possession? If so, it really screws up the math presented here.

    I think it's true that the 2pt shooting team will draw way more fouls.

    I think it's also true that shooting 33% from 3pt is the same as shooting 50% from 2pt. Teams shooting 40% from 3pt may well overcome any advantage at the FT line for the 2pt shooting team.
     
  13. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I would be interested to see the correlation between volume three point shooting teams and offensive rebounding rate. With longer shots, there SEEM to be more long rebounds, with defenders more spaced and therefore more offensive board opportunities. I'm not sure that's actually the way that it turns out, though...

    Ed O.
     

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