Yeah, you almost convinced me right there.Talk about an all around player, there aren't too many who did it better than MJ. So, here's my rebutle:MJ was the third greatest scorer ever. #1 is Wilt, you say he overpowered players a lot, but that's supprisingly not true. In fact, during his entire career, Wilt was knocked by the critics for being too nice, he never "took over". Believe it or not, he was about as aggressive on the offensive end as Lamar Odom. Thats why he had the finger-foll, the fallaway and the midrange jumper, because he liked to show off his skills. He has said himself many times that he hated dunking. (I know you'll be doubting me but, it's no lie) The second greatest scorer is Elgin Baylor. If not for Wilt, Elg would have been the greatest scorer ever. He simply changed the way players scored. I'd say Elgin Baylor, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are the three most revolutionary players to ever play. They saved the game. Anyway, Elgin Baylor modernized the way players scored, he was the first to cross people over, shoot reverse layups, stutter step, pull off shake moves and every other move that a modern player has today. Elgin did all those things before anybody else.I'll use just this to re-enforce my position on why I think MJ is overrated. He was an outstanding player, the greatest of this generation but that's it. I think the advent of ESPN and greater media coverage gave him a much bigger spotlight hence, it created the illusion that he was the greatest ever.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Larry Hughes @ Oct 10 2006, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I seen the thread name and I really was on the floor Laughing my a$$ off!!!MJ overrated?? :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!OVERRATED???PLEASE IF U KNOW SOME BASKETBALL DON'T EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER SAY THAT AGAIN!!!</div>8 month thread bumped. Smooth. Haha anyways no he is not overated, he could score on anybody, anytime, anywhere. Nitro covered just about everything else.
MJ was the perfect basketball player. He might be a tad overrated just because everyone acts like he is 5x as good as any other player in the NBA. Still the greatest of all time though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Oct 10 2006, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, you almost convinced me right there.Talk about an all around player, there aren't too many who did it better than MJ. So, here's my rebutle:MJ was the third greatest scorer ever. #1 is Wilt, you say he overpowered players a lot, but that's supprisingly not true. In fact, during his entire career, Wilt was knocked by the critics for being too nice, he never "took over". Believe it or not, he was about as aggressive on the offensive end as Lamar Odom. Thats why he had the finger-foll, the fallaway and the midrange jumper, because he liked to show off his skills. He has said himself many times that he hated dunking. (I know you'll be doubting me but, it's no lie) The second greatest scorer is Elgin Baylor. If not for Wilt, Elg would have been the greatest scorer ever. He simply changed the way players scored. I'd say Elgin Baylor, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are the three most revolutionary players to ever play. They saved the game. Anyway, Elgin Baylor modernized the way players scored, he was the first to cross people over, shoot reverse layups, stutter step, pull off shake moves and every other move that a modern player has today. Elgin did all those things before anybody else.I'll use just this to re-enforce my position on why I think MJ is overrated. He was an outstanding player, the greatest of this generation but that's it. I think the advent of ESPN and greater media coverage gave him a much bigger spotlight hence, it created the illusion that he was the greatest ever.</div>First off, we can go into career averages and see right now that Michael Jordan was just as good as Wilt Chamberlain, and a better scorer than Elgin Baylor. Once again, Baylor averaged 27.4 points per game over his career, compared to Michael Jordan averaging 30.1 points per game over his career. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 30.1 points per game over his career, which is the same as Michael Jordan's 30.1. So as far as stats go, they look the same, but as everyone knows stats never tell the whole story. Jordan was a better scorer than both, because he was a more versatile scorer than either one. He could shoot from farther away from the basket than either Wilt or Baylor could. All the moves you say that Baylor started, and that's why he is the better, Jordan perfected. Not only did Jordan perfect them, he added on to those plays to make them better than what they had previously been. A big thing that is wrong with your argument, you think just becaues someone starts something it makes them the best. That's completely wrong, and like saying that Naismith is the best basketball player of all time because he started the game, and no one else would be playing right now without him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Oct 10 2006, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, you almost convinced me right there.Talk about an all around player, there aren't too many who did it better than MJ. So, here's my rebutle:MJ was the third greatest scorer ever. #1 is Wilt, you say he overpowered players a lot, but that's supprisingly not true. In fact, during his entire career, Wilt was knocked by the critics for being too nice, he never "took over". Believe it or not, he was about as aggressive on the offensive end as Lamar Odom. Thats why he had the finger-foll, the fallaway and the midrange jumper, because he liked to show off his skills. He has said himself many times that he hated dunking. (I know you'll be doubting me but, it's no lie) The second greatest scorer is Elgin Baylor. If not for Wilt, Elg would have been the greatest scorer ever. He simply changed the way players scored. I'd say Elgin Baylor, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are the three most revolutionary players to ever play. They saved the game. Anyway, Elgin Baylor modernized the way players scored, he was the first to cross people over, shoot reverse layups, stutter step, pull off shake moves and every other move that a modern player has today. Elgin did all those things before anybody else.I'll use just this to re-enforce my position on why I think MJ is overrated. He was an outstanding player, the greatest of this generation but that's it. I think the advent of ESPN and greater media coverage gave him a much bigger spotlight hence, it created the illusion that he was the greatest ever.</div>When I say overpower I mean getting ball in low post against a MUCH smaller defender and simply just laying/dunking over him.Elgin was NOT the 2nd greatest scorer of all time. He was at 27PPG on 43% shooting for career while MJ was at 30PPG for career at 50% shooting. Elgin played in a MUCH faster paced game which allowed for many more point oppertunities, and the amount of quality perimeter defenders his size were slim. He only had 3 seasons of over 30PPG, and averaged that on only 44% shooting. MJ had 8 seasons of over 30PPG, shooting 52%. MJ never had a seaosn below 20PPG, even after retirning and coming back twice, once in his late '30's... Elgin had 3 seasons under 20PPG, 2 of them under 12PPG.That is such BS. Aside from him being greatest scorer of all time, a top 5 perimeter defender all time, an all around amazing player, one of most clutch players of all time, one of greatest winners of all time, most accomplished NBA player of all time, one of greatest dunkers of all time, being arguably most innovative of all time....what set him apart was his heart and determination to rip his opponent's throat out and stomp on it. That is what made him so special, and what has made him such an enigma to so many people....not the stats or the accomplishments, not the clutch shots or records broken...his personality and heart did.
MJ is not the greatest scorer of alltime, he's many things, but he aint that. Why do I think Wilt is the greatest scorer? Well because he was the most dominant at it. The NBA changed it's rules to try and stop him, yet they failed. That is saying something. The NBA changed the rules so players wouldn't hurt MJ when he drove to the basket. Come on, Wilt dominated when the league was trying to stop him while MJ flurished and the NBA let him, and threw in the flagrant foul rule to make it less painful. That's why I think Wilt is the greatest scorer of alltime.The Elgin Baylor argument was a little easier to shoot down, as you guys did so easily. But remember, half of Elgin's career was slowed by serious knee injuries. He only had about 4 good years to play before those injuries slowed him down. During those four seasons, he did what no other player his size has done. He was the most important player in the NBA's history. Even with those injuries he still played, albeit he was slower and less capable, but he still did great things. For example, when he scored 71 against the Knicks, he also had 25 rebounds! Thats wild. And when he set the original playoff record of 61 points in a game, he FOULED OUT OF THE GAME. In other words, he didn't even finish that game, and yet Michael Jordan played two overtimes to beat it by two.Finally, how is the Media argument bullsh**? You can't tell me that the media coverage of players today hasn't had a profound effect on how they are viewed. The only coverage the old timers got was in the newspaper.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diesel @ Oct 11 2006, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>MJ was the perfect basketball player. He might be a tad overrated just because everyone acts like he is 5x as good as any other player in the NBA. Still the greatest of all time though.</div>That is why Phil jackon chose a 6-7 foward to be his 1 in the triangle offense. He was not perfect, his range was limited untill later in his career. Couldn't hit 3 pointets consistently untill later in his career where his game was declining in every facet. Passing skills and ball handling skills could've been better. There are many flaws in Mj's game. He's not pefect.People think his head and shoulders above everyone else. As I said, he is overrated by the casual fan and bulls fans.
Not perfect no, but you can't argue that without him the Bulls wouldn't have 6 rings to celebrate. He had a talent of rallying when needed.Wilt had... 1 championship? I think success HAS to play a factor in deciding THE best.Sides, Wilt didn't have the competition MJ had or players have now. When he played basketball wasn't as big a thing. You can't deny that the average defender Wilt faced was pretty crappy. I don't think Wilt's 100 in a game is as impressive and MJ's 63(? not sure if that's the total) in a playoff game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Oct 11 2006, 06:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That is why Phil jackon chose a 6-7 foward to be his 1 in the triangle offense. He was not perfect, his range was limited untill later in his career. Couldn't hit 3 pointets consistently untill later in his career where his game was declining in every facet. Passing skills and ball handling skills could've been better. There are many flaws in Mj's game. He's not pefect.People think his head and shoulders above everyone else. As I said, he is overrated by the casual fan and bulls fans.</div>MJ never needed a 3pt shot. He was unstoppable early in his career, and when he came back after retirement he started using the midrange game. It worked absolutely brilliantly, his FG % droppe the bit, but he was still at 30PPG and was still the greatest offensive force in the league.
MJ is one of the best players there washe is overrated because he isnt 100x better than every player there ever was like people say but damn he was such a great player...words cant even explain how I felt watching him in the mid 90swhen the bulls finished 72-10woow it was so impressiveI sweat the celtics but at the time they were losing it so who but MJ to excite me about basketball?
Nobody is saying he's 100x better than the next player, he's just regarded as the best and rightfully so.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falconman1130 @ Oct 11 2006, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wilt had... 1 championship? I think success HAS to play a factor in deciding THE best.</div><span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">He actually had two. He most likely would have had more, but he was playing in the wrong era... Boston Celtics were dominating at the time.</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Oct 12 2006, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Who cares what Melo says, he's never watched Michael Jordan in his prime.</div>Uh oh, you don't have to watch it live to watch it. There are things called downloading games.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Oct 12 2006, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Uh oh, you don't have to watch it live to watch it. There are things called downloading games.</div> Eh, whatever.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Oct 12 2006, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Also, your 19 I believe. How do you remember in detail's mj's prime when you were only 4?</div> I started watching Michael Jordan in 1995, when I was around 8 years old...when he was still averaging close to 30ppg and still dominating...
Jordan is overrated precisely because people think they don't even need to discuss the greatest player ever list, that he somehow deserves to be placed atop the heap without challenge, and without debate.Dissenting opinions are responded to with circular arguments starting with the conclusion that Jordan is the best ever, ad hominem attacks on the dissenting individual, and claims that no evidence is needed.Jordan is clearly the most POPULAR player by a wide margin, but that does not equate to best. Opining that some other player, whether it be Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell, Shaq, or others is the best, is not a sign of ignorance or stupidity, it is a valid opinion that deserves the same respect that a Jordan vote does. Not only that, but what group of fans gives him that popularity? Fringe fans. Anyone claiming another candidate as the best player is going to be head and shoulders above average in basketball knowledge. Those opinions should carry more weight than they do.What makes Jordan "overrated" is that he is placed way above all his legitimate peers by NBA talking heads, fringe basketball fans, and the like, instead of being grouped with the rest of them, each of whom had strengths and weaknesses, and games that deserve respect.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Illosophee @ Oct 11 2006, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">He actually had two. He most likely would have had more, but he was playing in the wrong era... Boston Celtics were dominating at the time.</span></div>Every era but the seventies had a dominant team. Don't you think it's easier to win rings against the nineties bulls in a 25 team league than the celtics in an 8 team league?
I think he can sometimes be overrated as a player, as far as his accomplishments individually, and people saying nobody can ever be greater than MJ(in individual accomplishments and championships), but I do think NOBODY will ever be marketed as big as MJ was as being the greatest ever.MJ as of right now is probably the greatest ever...but we have to understand, basketball has only been around for 110yrs, and I dont think it was even a organized sport until the 20s(correct me if im wrong), I think we've only seen a small part of basketball history and its hard to believe that nobody EVER will be better than MJ. Hell, maybe im riding the bandwagon or whatever you wanna call it, but I just saw a 22yr old score 48 points on one of the best defensive teams in the Eastern Conference Finals. I dont think its ever safe to say so-and-so is the greatest and it will never change. But saying that, MJ probably is the greatest as of right now.
