<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz @ May 31 2007, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think he can sometimes be overrated as a player, as far as his accomplishments individually, and people saying nobody can ever be greater than MJ(in individual accomplishments and championships), but I do think NOBODY will ever be marketed as big as MJ was as being the greatest ever.MJ as of right now is probably the greatest ever...but we have to understand, basketball has only been around for 110yrs, and I dont think it was even a organized sport until the 20s(correct me if im wrong), I think we've only seen a small part of basketball history and its hard to believe that nobody EVER will be better than MJ. Hell, maybe im riding the bandwagon or whatever you wanna call it, but I just saw a 22yr old score 48 points on one of the best defensive teams in the Eastern Conference Finals. I dont think its ever safe to say so-and-so is the greatest and it will never change. But saying that, MJ probably is the greatest as of right now.</div>agreed in full
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz @ Jun 1 2007, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>...marketed as big as MJ was as being the greatest ever.MJ as of right now is probably the greatest ever...But saying that, MJ probably is the greatest...</div>Why do you feel the need to state that he was the "greatest ever," and not even provide reasons for that opinion, evaluation criteria, or alternate candidates and why he surpasses them? This begging the question style argument is so prevalent, it has come to be accepted as valid. It really is sick the way this has been repeated so many times by fringe fans and NBA marketers and hypers (shining examples: Bob Costas, Ahmad Rashad), that it is accepted as some sort of a priori truth. It isn't. Remember, these people had a huge financial incentive to overhype the product they were selling.Why not celebrate what you think is great about his game, and not fall into the trap of insisting that he's the best ever? Stating that he is the best ever without setting criteria isn't just a comment about Jordan, it is a dismissal of every other basketball player, and an unjustified one.Since the argument is about individual, not team greatness, answer this question:Who was more individually dominant against his direct competitors, Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain? I don't believe Jordan comes out on top here.An even better example of Jordan being overrated is the fact that he was voted the greatest ATHLETE ever by ESPN, over such clearly better athletes as Jim Thorpe, Jesse Owens, Carl Lewis, and Wilt Chamberlain, for that matter. It is very debatable whether Jordan was the best basketball player ever. Naming him the greatest athlete is ludicrous.Overrating Jordan to create hype and interest (and thus money) is almost its own cottage industry.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ May 31 2007, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why do you feel the need to state that he was the "greatest ever," and not even provide reasons for that opinion, evaluation criteria, or alternate candidates and why he surpasses them? This begging the question style argument is so prevalent, it has come to be accepted as valid. It really is sick the way this has been repeated so many times by fringe fans and NBA marketers and hypers (shining examples: Bob Costas, Ahmad Rashad), that it is accepted as some sort of a priori truth. It isn't. Remember, these people had a huge financial incentive to overhype the product they were selling.Why not celebrate what you think is great about his game, and not fall into the trap of insisting that he's the best ever? Stating that he is the best ever without setting criteria isn't just a comment about Jordan, it is a dismissal of every other basketball player, and an unjustified one.Since the argument is about individual, not team greatness, answer this question:Who was more individually dominant against his direct competitors, Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain? I don't believe Jordan comes out on top here.An even better example of Jordan being overrated is the fact that he was voted the greatest ATHLETE ever by ESPN, over such clearly better athletes as Jim Thorpe, Jesse Owens, Carl Lewis, and Wilt Chamberlain, for that matter. It is very debatable whether Jordan was the best basketball player ever. Naming him the greatest athlete is ludicrous.Overrating Jordan to create hype and interest (and thus money) is almost its own cottage industry.</div>the thing is JIO, you haven't said who you believe is superior to Jordan. Do you expect us to combat and debate with thin air so you can get a running start at your rebuttal? Why don't you name a player or players you believe to be superior, rather than just having a semantic discussion?
Uhm, in speaking in terms of accomplishments, of its individual and championships, Jordan is the greatest ever. Wilt Chamberlain played against a much weaker NBA where several of his opponents were 4-5 inches shorter than him. And given that fact he DID average 50 once in a season, he only won 2 championships. Michael play against a very much harder and tougher NBA and still accomplished more in terms of championships. If you take Wilt or Russell outve the 60s and place them in the middle of the 80s or even 90s..they wouldnt nearly been successful. The only two players IMO who truly rival MJ for the title as of now...is Larry Bird and Magic Johnson.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kobebryant_24OWNEDME @ Jun 1 2007, 01:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>the thing is JIO, you haven't said who you believe is superior to Jordan. Do you expect us to combat and debate with thin air so you can get a running start at your rebuttal? Why don't you name a player or players you believe to be superior, rather than just having a semantic discussion?</div>Ok, I will pick someone.I'll take Chamberlain over Jordan as greatest individual player. Wilt would still have the top scoring average if Jordan hadn't had several huge outlier games late in his career with the Wizards just as he was poised to drop behind. Chamberlain wasn't just a scorer, either, he was the top rebounder in the game for practically his entire career, and by wide margins. No player aside of Russell is even close to what he did as a rebounder. He led the league in FG% year in and year out, while leading the league in scoring. Led the league in assists as a center, while scoring 25 a game and leading the league in rebounding and FG%. He and Russell would be right up there at the top in shot block stats if they had been kept. Individual dominance, Chamberlain is the man.A few weak arguments are typically used to dismiss him here and anoint MJ instead.1 - His team lost to the Celtics. True, but we're talking individual, not team accomplishments, and the Celtics dynasty is unarguably the greatest the league has seen, and Chamberlain's teams were the only ones to beat Russell's Celtics.2 - He was bigger than his opponents. This is beyond silly. All NBA players benefit from having size, or they wouldn't be there. Jordan was almost always bigger than opposing guards at his position. The fact that Wilt and Shaq had/have size is a point in their favor, not against them.3 - Chamberlain would be nothing (or much less) in today's NBA. This is pure speculation. You play the competitors you are given. Many things would be different for Wilt if he were in the league today, like more favorable rules, better sports medicine, and better accomodations for players. No one knows how players from different eras would do if moved.The real point here is that it is debatable. I don't believe any player in the top handful stands out enormously from the rest. Jordan is not "unarguably" the greatest ever. Put him in the top group, fine, but the way he is placed way above the pack is a disgraceful insult to all the other players.
This is a really old thread. This thread was made two weeks after BBW came from BBW1, when I first saw the title I was like who the hell made this topic? then it was me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 1 2007, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'll take Chamberlain over Jordan as greatest individual player. Wilt would still have the top scoring average if Jordan hadn't had several huge outlier games late in his career with the Wizards just as he was poised to drop behind.</div>Ummm, but surely you could say the same about Wilt then. If he hadn't had some high scoring games then he wouldn't have been near the top? The fact is Jordan did score the points so he's entitled to them.Also, if you don't think Jordan wasn't a lot more than a scorer then you obviously have never seen him play. He is one of the greatest defenders of all time FFS.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 1 2007, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan is overrated precisely because people think they don't even need to discuss the greatest player ever list, that he somehow deserves to be placed atop the heap without challenge, and without debate.Dissenting opinions are responded to with circular arguments starting with the conclusion that Jordan is the best ever, ad hominem attacks on the dissenting individual, and claims that no evidence is needed.Jordan is clearly the most POPULAR player by a wide margin, but that does not equate to best. Opining that some other player, whether it be Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell, Shaq, or others is the best, is not a sign of ignorance or stupidity, it is a valid opinion that deserves the same respect that a Jordan vote does. Not only that, but what group of fans gives him that popularity? Fringe fans. Anyone claiming another candidate as the best player is going to be head and shoulders above average in basketball knowledge. Those opinions should carry more weight than they do.What makes Jordan "overrated" is that he is placed way above all his legitimate peers by NBA talking heads, fringe basketball fans, and the like, instead of being grouped with the rest of them, each of whom had strengths and weaknesses, and games that deserve respect.</div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 1 2007, 03:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, I will pick someone.I'll take Chamberlain over Jordan as greatest individual player. Wilt would still have the top scoring average if Jordan hadn't had several huge outlier games late in his career with the Wizards just as he was poised to drop behind. Chamberlain wasn't just a scorer, either, he was the top rebounder in the game for practically his entire career, and by wide margins. No player aside of Russell is even close to what he did as a rebounder. He led the league in FG% year in and year out, while leading the league in scoring. Led the league in assists as a center, while scoring 25 a game and leading the league in rebounding and FG%. He and Russell would be right up there at the top in shot block stats if they had been kept. Individual dominance, Chamberlain is the man.A few weak arguments are typically used to dismiss him here and anoint MJ instead.1 - His team lost to the Celtics. True, but we're talking individual, not team accomplishments, and the Celtics dynasty is unarguably the greatest the league has seen, and Chamberlain's teams were the only ones to beat Russell's Celtics.2 - He was bigger than his opponents. This is beyond silly. All NBA players benefit from having size, or they wouldn't be there. Jordan was almost always bigger than opposing guards at his position. The fact that Wilt and Shaq had/have size is a point in their favor, not against them.3 - Chamberlain would be nothing (or much less) in today's NBA. This is pure speculation. You play the competitors you are given. Many things would be different for Wilt if he were in the league today, like more favorable rules, better sports medicine, and better accomodations for players. No one knows how players from different eras would do if moved.The real point here is that it is debatable. I don't believe any player in the top handful stands out enormously from the rest. Jordan is not "unarguably" the greatest ever. Put him in the top group, fine, but the way he is placed way above the pack is a disgraceful insult to all the other players.</div>QFT. :rock: Rock on.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz @ Jun 1 2007, 02:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Uhm, in speaking in terms of accomplishments, of its individual and championships, Jordan is the greatest ever. Wilt Chamberlain played against a much weaker NBA where several of his opponents were 4-5 inches shorter than him. And given that fact he DID average 50 once in a season, he only won 2 championships. Michael play against a very much harder and tougher NBA and still accomplished more in terms of championships. If you take Wilt or Russell outve the 60s and place them in the middle of the 80s or even 90s..they wouldnt nearly been successful. The only two players IMO who truly rival MJ for the title as of now...is Larry Bird and Magic Johnson.</div>Wilt went up against the Celtics. How can you consider that weak? Yeah, its called evolution...Give Wilt and Russell the same technology as Jordan and they would be better as well. If Jordan grew up in the 50s he would be worse, and he wouldnt dominate a league with the Celtics, and Wilt.
I gaurantee that 90% of everyone that calls Jordan overrated never watched him play on a regular basis while he was on the Bulls. His accomplishments are incomparable. Sure Russel won more titles, but Jordan won more individual awards. Chamberlain and Jabbar may have the scoring records, but Jordan has more titles than them with far worse teams. Pippen and Rodman were great, but he didn't have depth behind him like Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Michael Cooper, Jerry West, and Oscar Robertson. The Bulls were a 3 seed in the East and got eliminated in the 2nd round without MJ. With him they won 6 titles. So please, don't make it out like he walked onto some great team and hogged the ball all the way to victory. Those teams are underrated, but they were still great because of MJ. In order to be a ballhog you have to hurt your team by not sharing enough. Jordan never did that. Jordan is also the best because he lead a team to 6 titles without an all-star caliber big man. Only ONE team has ever won a single title without a great big man, the 75 Warriors, much less six like MJ's Bulls did. Go ahead and look it up. So please, stop bashing Jordan. The guy is revered for a reason; he completely changed the game. Try to have a little respect. He is the greatest player ever and will continue to be until someone can top him with a combination of championships and individual accomplishments.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Feb 28 2006, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really don't know how to explain it to you. Micahel jordan is the greatest but he's overrated number one because people think he's leap and bounds infront of anyone. Secondly he's overrated because people fail to realise how great of a team the bulls were even without him.Understand?</div>^^ that post pretty much sums it all up....
MJ isnt overrated from his accomplishments...AND his team wasnt all that great. They would a good supporting cast, but they werent a great supporting cast like alotve people say. Pippen, he has said it himself, only was that good because of MJ. Not saying really MJ made him better during the game, but off the court as far as making him competitive like Pippen is. But I do agree about MJ being overrated in the sense of him being so ahead of everyone. And people will say nobody...NOBODY, will ever be greater than him..in individual or team accomplishments. I think thats complete b/s. Im not going to say the same thing over again, just read my earlier post.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz @ Jun 1 2007, 07:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>MJ isnt overrated from his accomplishments...AND his team wasnt all that great. They would a good supporting cast, but they werent a great supporting cast like alotve people say. Pippen, he has said it himself, only was that good because of MJ. Not saying really MJ made him better during the game, but off the court as far as making him competitive like Pippen is. But I do agree about MJ being overrated in the sense of him being so ahead of everyone. And people will say nobody...NOBODY, will ever be greater than him..in individual or team accomplishments. I think thats complete b/s. Im not going to say the same thing over again, just read my earlier post.</div>Didn't the Bulls have a really good record when MJ went off to play baseball?Edit: Yes, 55 wins. That is an outstanding supporting cast.
But they became that good because Jordan pushed them. If you would read my post thoroughly, I never said Pippen wasnt talented, I said MJ pushed him..and the rest of the team, to be that good. Probably none of those players in his first 3-peat wouldve ever been that good without Jordan. They all said Jordan made them better off the court.
Come on, Jordan could not have made THAT much of a difference when he was gone the entire time. People have also said that Jordan was an ass. I think Jordan is the greatest of all time but that was the best supporting cast any 1 superstar team ever had.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dagameplayer @ Feb 27 2006, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan a Ballhog? Why? Because he didnt average 10 assist a game? Come on now. You gotta be kidding me. I watched the Bulls play from 93 all the way up to Jordan retired and in that time I know Michael Jordan did not do all the work. Yes Jordan took a lot of shots but doesn't Iverson do the same? Doesn't Kobe do the same? Doesn't T-Mac Do the same? Yes. Why? Because they are the team leader. They are the star and when your the star player you are going to get the ball alot. That's just how it is. Besides not every team can be blessed to have the kind of line up Detroit has.</div>Jordan was a ballhog, he averaged 22 FGA a game. however he did make 11 so it did as much benefit as it did bad for the Bulls.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jun 3 2007, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan was a ballhog, he averaged 22 FGA a game. however he did make 11 so it did as much benefit as it did bad for the Bulls.</div>Sure.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jun 3 2007, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan was a ballhog, he averaged 22 FGA a game. however he did make 11 so it did as much benefit as it did bad for the Bulls.</div>2 thingsid he ever hurt is team by not passing? No. A ballhog hurts their team by shooting too much.When your that good and your supporting cast is that weak (excluding Pippen offensively) your going to have to take a lot of shots too win.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camby23Land @ Jun 3 2007, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>2 thingsid he ever hurt is team by not passing? No. A ballhog hurts their team by shooting too much.When your that good and your supporting cast is that weak (excluding Pippen offensively) your going to have to take a lot of shots too win.</div>Jordan had a great supporting cast. What are you talking about?
