<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LakersFan247 @ Jun 3 2007, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan had a great supporting cast. What are you talking about?</div> Was about to say that, Kukoc, Pippen, sharpshooter Steve Kerr, force down low in Rodman, BJ Armstrong. Need I say more?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camby23Land @ Jun 3 2007, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>2 things:Did he ever hurt is team by not passing? No. A ballhog hurts their team by shooting too much.When your that good and your supporting cast is that weak (excluding Pippen offensively) your going to have to take a lot of shots too win.</div>I dont get your point, Jordan averages 11 misses a game, thats not a positive.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jun 3 2007, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Was about to say that, Kukoc, Pippen, sharpshooter Steve Kerr, force down low in Rodman, BJ Armstrong. Need I say more?I dont get your point, Jordan averages 11 misses a game, thats not a positive.</div>Without Jordan that team was a 3 seed eliminated in the 2nd round. With Jordan they won 6 titles. The supporting cast wasn't as good as for example Bill Russell or Magic Johnson had.He also averaged 30 points per game. That sure helped his team.
MJ eluvated the play of his teammates. Like I said, Pippen has said himself MJ made him better on and off the court with him pushing him constantly in practies, timeouts etc. MJs supporting class wasnt all the great. If Pippen never went to the Bulls, he at the most wouldve probably been a star...but not a top 50 player, legend etc. If you EVER watch a Bulls game before 1990, you will see Pippen wasnt all the great. He became great because of MJ. His supporting cast was nothin compared to Birds or Magics. This is what made MJ so great.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camby23Land @ Jun 3 2007, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Without Jordan that team was a 3 seed eliminated in the 2nd round. With Jordan they won 6 titles. The supporting cast wasn't as good as for example Bill Russell or Magic Johnson had.He also averaged 30 points per game. That sure helped his team.</div>Jordan had a good supporting cast. Like you said, they were a 3rd seed. Lebron has a bad supporting cast. Because I gaurantee without him and add a CBA player, therye worst in the NBA. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz @ Jun 3 2007, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>MJ eluvated the play of his teammates. Like I said, Pippen has said himself MJ made him better on and off the court with him pushing him constantly in practies, timeouts etc. MJs supporting class wasnt all the great. If Pippen never went to the Bulls, he at the most wouldve probably been a star...but not a top 50 player, legend etc. If you EVER watch a Bulls game before 1990, you will see Pippen wasnt all the great. He became great because of MJ. His supporting cast was nothin compared to Birds or Magics. This is what made MJ so great.</div>What are you talking about? Pippen said that he was BETTER than Jordan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jun 3 2007, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I dont get your point, Jordan averages 11 misses a game, thats not a positive.</div>I can't believe you are knocking the fact that MJ shot about 50% or better in every season he was a Bull. Let's take a look at their best season, '95-'96. That was one of his down years in terms of FG % at .495%...that was still better than anyone else on the team outside of Steve Kerr, whose FG % was only that high because of Jordan and Pippen. But all of that is irrelevent as without Jordan you wouldn't have the games where he explodes for 50 in the playoffs to win the game, or the consistent player to give you 30PPG. The first year without Jordan they added new players like Kerr and Kukoc to help fill in for the loss of MJ, and they ran purely on surprising other teams that they were still good without MJ. But before MJ came back the next seaosn, they were 34-32...barely above .500. People always never look at this stat, but it shows MJ's true importance to that Bulls team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camby23Land @ Jun 3 2007, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>2 thingsid he ever hurt is team by not passing? No. A ballhog hurts their team by shooting too much.When your that good and your supporting cast is that weak (excluding Pippen offensively) your going to have to take a lot of shots too win.</div>I am reminded of a game in which Kukoc had just hit his 3rd consecutive 3 point shot, only to have the camera clearly show Jordan screaming the following at him (after the 3rd make):"GIVE ME THE BALL!"It must have been tough to see someone else taking the shots. Throughout his career, all his teammates sacrificed their offensive games so that he could take 25 shots a game and be the first option on every offensive possession after a couple of 1st quarter dumpdowns to Cartwright or another post player. The unselfishness of the vastly underrated "Jordanaires" is what brought those championships to Chicago. Not just Michael.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 3 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I am reminded of a game in which Kukoc had just hit his 3rd consecutive 3 point shot, only to have the camera clearly show Jordan screaming the following at him (after the 3rd make):"GIVE ME THE BALL!"It must have been tough to see someone else taking the shots. Throughout his career, all his teammates sacrificed their offensive games so that he could take 25 shots a game and be the first option on every offensive possession after a couple of 1st quarter dumpdowns to Cartwright or another post player. The unselfishness of the vastly underrated "Jordanaires" is what brought those championships to Chicago. Not just Michael.</div>^ True Say ^ However, I will never undermine Michael Jordan, hes not overrate as your username screams, and is the greatest along with Chamberlain. He won the rings, the MVPs, DPOY's, hes defintely THE BEST ever up until this point and time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jun 3 2007, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan had a good supporting cast. Like you said, they were a 3rd seed. Lebron has a bad supporting cast. Because I gaurantee without him and add a CBA player, therye worst in the NBA. What are you talking about? Pippen said that he was BETTER than Jordan.</div>Pippen has been doing crack with Devin Harris. When he was sober about 10 yrs ago he said MJ made him better early in his career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jun 3 2007, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^ True Say ^ However, I will never undermine Michael Jordan, hes not overrate as your username screams, and is the greatest along with Chamberlain. He won the rings, the MVPs, DPOY's, hes defintely THE BEST ever up until this point and time.</div>Top 5. Not clearly best. Other players deserve respect here. "Definitely THE BEST" says they don't. Jabbar clearly needs more respect than he gets, for example. It is no stretch whatsoever to argue that he belongs above MJ. Saying that he's "definitely, unarguably the best" though, would be just as off as your statement is.
If you look at a website like rankopedia.com, Jordan is dominating several important rankings, like Best NBA player ever, Best clutch athlete of all time, Most dominant sports figure ever, etc. I think it's exaggerated. To start with basketball, Chamberlain or Bill Russell had much more impressive stats. I think Jordan's fame has more to do with other things such as his shoes, his comeback, his brief baseball stint, the death of his father, etc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wallerstein @ Jun 4 2007, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If you look at a website like rankopedia.com, Jordan is dominating several important rankings, like Best NBA player ever, Best clutch athlete of all time, Most dominant sports figure ever, etc. I think it's exaggerated. To start with basketball, Chamberlain or Bill Russell had much more impressive stats. I think Jordan's fame has more to do with other things such as his shoes, his comeback, his brief baseball stint, the death of his father, etc.</div>yeah, I wouldn't really use a site like that to make a claim for how great a player is. FFS Christiano Ronaldo is ranked as the 6th best soccer player of all time!!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 3 2007, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I am reminded of a game in which Kukoc had just hit his 3rd consecutive 3 point shot, only to have the camera clearly show Jordan screaming the following at him (after the 3rd make):"GIVE ME THE BALL!"It must have been tough to see someone else taking the shots. Throughout his career, all his teammates sacrificed their offensive games so that he could take 25 shots a game and be the first option on every offensive possession after a couple of 1st quarter dumpdowns to Cartwright or another post player. The unselfishness of the vastly underrated "Jordanaires" is what brought those championships to Chicago. Not just Michael.</div>That doesn't sound like a leader to me. Maybe him, and Kobe aren't all that different after all. :no1:
<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%">MJ IS THE GREATEST EVER! THE GREATEST CANNOT BE OVERRATED!</span>
MJ was an unbelieveable talent unlike no player ever seen. Of course he would overshadow any player even the greatest defensive sf to ever play the game in Pippen. Really whether or not hes overrated comes from how your rating him. MJ was not the greatest leader ever, what held together our team and kept us as a team was coach Phil Jackson. Before we came we were a team with a lot of talent but under-utilized. He installed what I believe was the best defense ever assembled(even before rodman) The year we won our first championship no team could score on us and we happened to have the best scoring player ever so it went without saying that we became a dynasty. MJ was a huge part of this, but the reason the bulls were a dynasty was our defensive ball. The Bulls in the 90s played perfect defense, they made very little mistakes, and played a very fluid form of basketball, not to mention having the greatest basketball player ever helps alot. There were just no flaws in our team and it was probably as a whole the best team ever put together. That being said, you really cant answer the question ''is mj overrated?'' incorrectly.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 4 2007, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That being said, you really cant answer the question ''is mj overrated?'' incorrectly.</div>Here is the reality:Bulls win several championshipsBulls do this because of team play, a completely unselfish roster outside of the star, an offense featuring unbalanced scoring, and help from refs.Since Jordan is the most popular player/star on this team, overrating (of the team and the player) soon begins. All it took was team success to trigger it. Jordan was overrated before the Bulls broke through. The unprecedented (and disgusting) whining (resulting in the ref help vs. the Pistons, why do you think they walked off?) is evidence of this. Whining not just from Bulls fans, but from all corners, with people saying things like "that isn't the way the game should be played," and other nonsense. Phil Jackson is the master of referee manipulation. The rules define the game, play by them and shut up.The immense whining at the time about the Pistons was not at all unlike the crybabies supporting Phoenix now. Lots of people who want the style of play they like to watch to be the winning style. Chicago eventually got past Detroit, but they weren't the "greatest team ever" that they are crowned as by the media. Get real.People seem to be completely incapable of separating these things:my favorite team vs. best teammy favorite player vs. best playerUntil they can evaluate these things objectively, votes by them are as meaningless as Jordan being voted best athlete ever by ESPN, or the ludicrous vote on the site quoted earlier that identifies the SUNS as the best current NBA team. With knowledge and objectivity comes a vote that deserves to be counted. Why not vote him to be best shot blocker ever, or best center? How about best golfer? Bobby Jones, Tiger Woods, and Jack Nicklaus certaintly aren't worthy of being in front of someone as popular as "His Airness," now are they? He's #2 as best shooter ever on the site. Above all else, Jordan himself said that he was the best player ever during an interview. The gall this takes is beyond comprehension. I'm surprised his head fits through a doorway.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 5 2007, 03:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here is the reality:Bulls win several championshipsBulls do this because of team play, a completely unselfish roster outside of the star, an offense featuring unbalanced scoring, and help from refs.Since Jordan is the most popular player/star on this team, overrating (of the team and the player) soon begins. All it took was team success to trigger it. Jordan was overrated before the Bulls broke through. The unprecedented (and disgusting) whining (resulting in the ref help vs. the Pistons, why do you think they walked off?) is evidence of this. Whining not just from Bulls fans, but from all corners, with people saying things like "that isn't the way the game should be played," and other nonsense. Phil Jackson is the master of referee manipulation. The rules define the game, play by them and shut up.The immense whining at the time about the Pistons was not at all unlike the crybabies supporting Phoenix now. Lots of people who want the style of play they like to watch to be the winning style. Chicago eventually got past Detroit, but they weren't the "greatest team ever" that they are crowned as by the media. Get real.People seem to be completely incapable of separating these things:my favorite team vs. best teammy favorite player vs. best playerUntil they can evaluate these things objectively, votes by them are as meaningless as Jordan being voted best athlete ever by ESPN, or the ludicrous vote on the site quoted earlier that identifies the SUNS as the best current NBA team. With knowledge and objectivity comes a vote that deserves to be counted. Why not vote him to be best shot blocker ever, or best center? How about best golfer? Bobby Jones, Tiger Woods, and Jack Nicklaus certaintly aren't worthy of being in front of someone as popular as "His Airness," now are they? He's #2 as best shooter ever on the site. Above all else, Jordan himself said that he was the best player ever during an interview. The gall this takes is beyond comprehension. I'm surprised his head fits through a doorway.</div>I dont know what Bulls-Pistons series you were watching back when but Joe Dumars used to foul the sh*t out of MJ(their so called ''Jordan Rules'') It wasnt until we got Charles Oakley that we started trading elbows with them but it was always a dirty series and I dont believe we usually ended up with the calls. And for anyone whose not a Jordan hater, it makes sense that Jordan would call himself the greatest since he was the greatest in terms of an individual athlete on the basketball court.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 5 2007, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here is the reality:Bulls win several championshipsBulls do this because of team play, a completely unselfish roster outside of the star, an offense featuring unbalanced scoring, and help from refs.</div>They were a slightly above .500 team without Jordan (first season was more of a fluke than anything). All those things are unnecassary no matter what star you are building around. Bottom line is MJ was CLEARLY the best player in the league, and was the leader of the 6 ring Bulls.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Since Jordan is the most popular player/star on this team, overrating (of the team and the player) soon begins. All it took was team success to trigger it. Jordan was overrated before the Bulls broke through. The unprecedented (and disgusting) whining (resulting in the ref help vs. the Pistons, why do you think they walked off?) is evidence of this. Whining not just from Bulls fans, but from all corners, with people saying things like "that isn't the way the game should be played," and other nonsense. Phil Jackson is the master of referee manipulation. The rules define the game, play by them and shut up.The immense whining at the time about the Pistons was not at all unlike the crybabies supporting Phoenix now. Lots of people who want the style of play they like to watch to be the winning style. Chicago eventually got past Detroit, but they weren't the "greatest team ever" that they are crowned as by the media. Get real.</div>MJ wasn't overrated before the rings as he was playing the game at a higher level than any other player in NBA history. He was dominating the league on both sides of the ball with averages of 37/8/8/2 on over 50% shooting. For a 6'6'' swingman to do that in an era as talented and deep as the '80's/early '90's were is brilliant.Who cares about whining? That has nothing to do with the level of player you are. You may question the man's character, but that arrogance is what made him so lethal, especially in the clutch.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>People seem to be completely incapable of separating these things:my favorite team vs. best teammy favorite player vs. best playerUntil they can evaluate these things objectively, votes by them are as meaningless as Jordan being voted best athlete ever by ESPN, or the ludicrous vote on the site quoted earlier that identifies the SUNS as the best current NBA team. With knowledge and objectivity comes a vote that deserves to be counted. Why not vote him to be best shot blocker ever, or best center? How about best golfer? Bobby Jones, Tiger Woods, and Jack Nicklaus certaintly aren't worthy of being in front of someone as popular as "His Airness," now are they? He's #2 as best shooter ever on the site. Above all else, Jordan himself said that he was the best player ever during an interview. The gall this takes is beyond comprehension. I'm surprised his head fits through a doorway.</div>What athletes would YOU put above Jordan? MJ changed the game of basketball like no one ever has, and dominated the sport like no one else has (maybe Bill Russell, but again, different times). When you say best athlete, you also has to look into marketability and what he did for the sport. MJ made the sport more popular than ever and became the face of the whole league. Not only is he the most favorited player ever by fans, but he is the most recognizable.Again, he can say what he wants, it makes no difference about him as a player. But again, that arrogance is what made him so great.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 5 2007, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bottom line is MJ was CLEARLY the best player in the league, and was the leader of the 6 ring Bulls.MJ wasn't overrated before the rings as he was playing the game at a higher level than any other player in NBA history.</div>I think Wilt averaging 44, 24 rebounds, 3.5 assists, and leading the league in minutes (47.5 min/game!), FG%, scoring and rebounding probably disqualifies this statement about "higher level than any other player in NBA history." It's precisely these types of comments that prove my point. People made the same out of line pronouncements at the time, and have ever since, hence, he's overrated. That's what overrated means, putting them above where they belong.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 5 2007, 11:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think Wilt averaging 44, 24 rebounds, 3.5 assists, and leading the league in minutes (47.5 min/game!), FG%, scoring and rebounding probably disqualifies this statement about "higher level than any other player in NBA history."</div>Wilt played in an era where players the size of T-Mac were the norm for centers. The tempo of the games were much higher (thus allowing more points and rebounds) and defenses simply weren't evolved and complex like they are today. Athletically you didn't have PG's getting their head at rim level on dunks to block shots nor did you have players benching 475lbs like Ben Wallace does. MJ was a 6'6'' swingman in a MUCH deeper and more talented era than Wilt, yet he was the most talented scorer we have ever seen and was also the best defensive player in the league as well. He hit clutch shots, played with more heart than anyone else in the league, took over in the clutch, and revolutionized the game in so many ways. He is incredibly accomplished both on and off the court. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It's precisely these types of comments that prove my point. People made the same out of line pronouncements at the time, and have ever since, hence, he's overrated. That's what overrated means, putting them above where they belong.</div>Of course there will be things about MJ that are overrated, like people saying no one will ever be better than him. That is simply false. But the guy, IMO, is the greatest player to ever play the game, and I don't think it is overrating him at all to call him the greatest athlete of all time in a magazine.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Living_Legend33 @ Jun 1 2007, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I gaurantee that 90% of everyone that calls Jordan overrated never watched him play on a regular basis while he was on the Bulls. So please, stop bashing Jordan. The guy is revered for a reason; he completely changed the game. Try to have a little respect. He is the greatest player ever and will continue to be until someone can top him with a combination of championships and individual accomplishments.</div> :worthy:
