<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 5 2007, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here is the reality:Bulls win several championshipsBulls do this because of team play, a completely unselfish roster outside of the star, an offense featuring unbalanced scoring, and help from refs.Since Jordan is the most popular player/star on this team, overrating (of the team and the player) soon begins. All it took was team success to trigger it. Jordan was overrated before the Bulls broke through. The unprecedented (and disgusting) whining (resulting in the ref help vs. the Pistons, why do you think they walked off?) is evidence of this. Whining not just from Bulls fans, but from all corners, with people saying things like "that isn't the way the game should be played," and other nonsense. Phil Jackson is the master of referee manipulation. The rules define the game, play by them and shut up.The immense whining at the time about the Pistons was not at all unlike the crybabies supporting Phoenix now. Lots of people who want the style of play they like to watch to be the winning style. Chicago eventually got past Detroit, but they weren't the "greatest team ever" that they are crowned as by the media. Get real.People seem to be completely incapable of separating these things:my favorite team vs. best teammy favorite player vs. best playerUntil they can evaluate these things objectively, votes by them are as meaningless as Jordan being voted best athlete ever by ESPN, or the ludicrous vote on the site quoted earlier that identifies the SUNS as the best current NBA team. With knowledge and objectivity comes a vote that deserves to be counted. Why not vote him to be best shot blocker ever, or best center? How about best golfer? Bobby Jones, Tiger Woods, and Jack Nicklaus certaintly aren't worthy of being in front of someone as popular as "His Airness," now are they? He's #2 as best shooter ever on the site. Above all else, Jordan himself said that he was the best player ever during an interview. The gall this takes is beyond comprehension. I'm surprised his head fits through a doorway.</div>Why do I get the feeling that you are a Pistons fan who just hates MJ because of those series? Seriously, the Bulls didn't finally beat the Pistons off ref whining, they beat them because of, like PrimeTime said, Charles Oakley. He fought physicality with physicality. Whining towards the refs will only get you so far.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camby23Land @ Jun 6 2007, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why do I get the feeling that you are a Pistons fan who just hates MJ because of those series? Seriously, the Bulls didn't finally beat the Pistons off ref whining, they beat them because of, like PrimeTime said, Charles Oakley. He fought physicality with physicality. Whining towards the refs will only get you so far.</div>I don't mind the Pistons, but ref whining really did change things a lot that year. The rules (as enforced) were changed on the Pistons in that series, and they had built a team to compete in a playoff atmosphere that had been pretty consistent for years. All the crying by Jackson, Jordan, and Bulls fans about "playing the game right" had a big impact, and one that helped the Bulls. It was time for the popular team to be given every chance to be the winning team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 5 2007, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wilt played in an era where players the size of T-Mac were the norm for centers. The tempo of the games were much higher (thus allowing more points and rebounds) and defenses simply weren't evolved and complex like they are today.</div>This argument is silly. The first comment is just outright wrong, centers were not 6-7 or 6-8, I don't know where you got that, and the second is irrelevant. Why is it that Wilt is the only guy lapping the field if it's an outgrowth of playing style? Dominance in a team sport is excelling given the circumstances. To deny Wilt's dominance of the league is disrespectful, and has everything to do with when he played, and nothing to do with how he played.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 5 2007, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think it is overrating him at all to call him the greatest athlete of all time in a magazine.</div>It's not just overrating, it's ridiculous. Maybe it would be acceptable if the category were "Most Popular Athlete" but not unqualified "best athlete." Guys like Jim Thorpe, Jesse Owens and others were clearly better all around athletes than a one sport guy like MJ. It's hard for me to understand how you would think putting MJ at the top of a popularity contest for ratings and naming him the "best athlete ever" is a good thing.I've had about enough on this, anyway. People will go on inventing contrived countdowns where Jordan is placed in the top position, and fans who don't even watch the game will continue to pronounce that Jordan is "obviously the best ever."I'll just remain with the silent minority who choose to disagree.
I dont know how you can be a MJ hater... Didnt he shut up any critics when he won nearly every scoring title his entire career and then win 6 titles while playing DPOY defense at the same time. Sounds like best player to me, considering how many allstar centers were in the 90s thats something. Centers are always belived to bring titles but Phil designed an offense and defense that could dominate a decate with Lul Longley and Stacey King as our centers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 6 2007, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This argument is silly. The first comment is just outright wrong, centers were not 6-7 or 6-8, I don't know where you got that, and the second is irrelevant. Why is it that Wilt is the only guy lapping the field if it's an outgrowth of playing style? Dominance in a team sport is excelling given the circumstances. To deny Wilt's dominance of the league is disrespectful, and has everything to do with when he played, and nothing to do with how he played.</div>He isn't denying Wilt's dominance at all, he is just saying Wilt's era allowed him to dominate more than anything. If he would have played today, he still would have been a great player and all star maybe even a HOFer, but he wouldn't of had the stat totals and 100 point game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>This argument is silly. The first comment is just outright wrong, centers were not 6-7 or 6-8, I don't know where you got that, and the second is irrelevant. Why is it that Wilt is the only guy lapping the field if it's an outgrowth of playing style? Dominance in a team sport is excelling given the circumstances. To deny Wilt's dominance of the league is disrespectful, and has everything to do with when he played, and nothing to do with how he played.</div>The starting centers Wilt played against in 1960's heights and weights:Celtics - 6'9" 215 poundsHawks - 6'9" 205 PoundsLakers - 6'7" 220 pounds (rudy larusso was the closest thing they had to a regularly playing center)Syracuse - 6'9" 230 pounds (and 6'7" 195 pound dolph schayes was playing it a lot too)Detroit - 7'0 225 pounds (the only guy close to wilt's size)Cincinnati - 6'10" 200 poundsNew York - 6'6" 225 pounds (with 6'8" 230 pound charlie tyra coming off the bench)Tracy McGrady is 6'8" 225 pounds, as big as pretty much any center in the league back then. And he's a point-forward/swingman.And what I mean about an era discrepancy, is that if you put Tracy McGrady back in the sixties he immediately has the best long shot, ballhandling abilities, dunking abilities, and vertical in the league.......but he's also the size of a center. A guy like Tmac, KG or Lebron would be literally unstoppable in an era where they had the size of centers and the skills of any guard.And wilt was not "the only guy" lapping the field, everybody was getting inflated stats back then. There were 5 players per season averaging 30 points per game and other people were averaging 30-10-10, 38 points per game, 25 rebounds per game, etc. It's clear from how stars played in that era that it was easier to rack up stats back then.
Wilt Chamberlain played against so many hall of fame centers and forwards. I made a thread about it on another forum, I'll go look for it. But during the time Wilt was playing, there were many other centers who went on to be HOFers.Found itJerry LucasMaurice StokesDave DeBusschereClyde LovelletteWalt BellamyBill RusselDave CowensNate ThurmondBob PettitDolph SchayesWillis ReedWes Unseld
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Living_Legend33 @ Jun 1 2007, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I gaurantee that 90% of everyone that calls Jordan overrated never watched him play on a regular basis while he was on the Bulls.</div> I watched his last 4 years with the Bulls religiously. Look at this forum, so many of our members are like 15-17 and never got a chance to see him in games with the Bulls....Michael Jordan is someone you just had to watch to ''get it".
<span style="font-family:Arial">Michael Jordan's image is overrated, and it always will be. People don't realize how bad he actually did treat his teammates at times. He has cheated on his wife a few times as well, something Kobe can't seem to live down. As far as being a player goes, Jordan is NOT overrated. He deserves all the credit he's given as a player.</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 6 2007, 01:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This argument is silly. The first comment is just outright wrong, centers were not 6-7 or 6-8, I don't know where you got that, and the second is irrelevant. Why is it that Wilt is the only guy lapping the field if it's an outgrowth of playing style? Dominance in a team sport is excelling given the circumstances. To deny Wilt's dominance of the league is disrespectful, and has everything to do with when he played, and nothing to do with how he played.</div>Centers were 6'8''-6'10'' and around 210-220lbs. T-Mac fits right in with that mold. Those players were not nearly as athletic as they are now, nor did they train as heavily with weights as they do now. They weren't taught from youth and through leagues like AAU as well as they are now. To put it simply, Wilt just overpowered his competition, but would he be as effective in a much deeper and talented NBA focused on defense? No. And it wasn't just Wilt's stats that were inflated...for the most part the whole league's stats were. Simply put the game was still early in development, talent pool was much thinner, players weren't near as purely talented or athletically gifted as today, etc...I am not denying Wilt's dominance as he was, in fact, the most dominant ever. But that doesn't mean that he ever played the game at a higher level than MJ, which was my point.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It's not just overrating, it's ridiculous. Maybe it would be acceptable if the category were "Most Popular Athlete" but not unqualified "best athlete." Guys like Jim Thorpe, Jesse Owens and others were clearly better all around athletes than a one sport guy like MJ. It's hard for me to understand how you would think putting MJ at the top of a popularity contest for ratings and naming him the "best athlete ever" is a good thing.</div>Guess what? If a magazine creates a best athlete ever poll, it is through the opinions of the writers making up the magazine. If they feel Jordan was the greatest athlete ever, who are you to say they are wrong and are just saying that due to Jordan's popularity? Moreso than any other sport, Jordan is considered the hands down best, and most influential, player of his sport. He is the reason Nike and Gatorade are such huge forces in the sports industry. He revolutionized the way basketball is played moreso than any other player. When you think of a winner and guy with more heart and killer instinct than anyone else, you think Jordan.You may disagree with MJ being the best athlete ever, but to be in such denial that he should be even mentioned is absolutely ignornant. Those other guys you mentioned were also in the early 1900's and simply couldn't dominate their sports like today. A 6'1'' 180lbs running back/defensive back dominating today's NFL? I don't think so.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camby23Land @ Jun 6 2007, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>...maybe even a HOFer</div>That comment really says it all.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kobebryant_24OWNEDME @ Jun 6 2007, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And wilt was not "the only guy" lapping the field, everybody was getting inflated stats back then. There were 5 players per season averaging 30 points per game and other people were averaging 30-10-10, 38 points per game, 25 rebounds per game, etc. It's clear from how stars played in that era that it was easier to rack up stats back then.</div>To back up your pronouncements, which are evidently intended to belittle Chamberlain's accomplishments, you should be able to answer the following questions:1. Name a single player aside of Chamberlain to ever average 25 boards a game for even a single season.2. Name a player aside of Chamberlain to ever average 38 points a game for even a single season.3. Name a single player to ever average 30/10/10 for a season4. Name a single NBA season in Wilt's era where 5 players topped 30 points a game.The answers are:1. Never2. Once, Elgin Baylor, in a partial season, 61-623. Once, by Oscar Robertson, close a few other times, and he is another guy who gets the shaft in terms of best player discussions.4. Once, 1961-62And that year, 61-62, Wilt did "lap the field" in scoring, as he did many times in many ways. Widest margin of victory for a scoring title in league history, over his own records.As long people promote MJ as "obviously the best ever," and choose to disrespect the players of the past by not giving due consideration to their accomplishments, overraters they will remain.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 6 2007, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Guess what? If a magazine creates a best athlete ever poll, it is through the opinions of the writers making up the magazine. If they feel Jordan was the greatest athlete ever, who are you to say they are wrong and are just saying that due to Jordan's popularity? Moreso than any other sport, Jordan is considered the hands down best, and most influential, player of his sport. He is the reason Nike and Gatorade are such huge forces in the sports industry. He revolutionized the way basketball is played moreso than any other player. When you think of a winner and guy with more heart and killer instinct than anyone else, you think Jordan.You may disagree with MJ being the best athlete ever, but to be in such denial that he should be even mentioned is absolutely ignornant. Those other guys you mentioned were also in the early 1900's and simply couldn't dominate their sports like today. A 6'1'' 180lbs running back/defensive back dominating today's NFL? I don't think so.</div>Making money for corporations does not make one a great athlete. He might be (and probably is) the biggest cash cow for the largest number of people in sports history, but "best athlete" means something, and naming Jordan "best athlete" is wrong. The fact that ESPN voted him best athlete ever is neither surprising, nor credible, nor indicative of a true belief that he was actually the best athlete. He was most popular, most popular sells, so he's #1.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 6 2007, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Making money for corporations does not make one a great athlete. He might be (and probably is) the biggest cash cow for the largest number of people in sports history, but "best athlete" means something, and naming Jordan "best athlete" is wrong. The fact that ESPN voted him best athlete ever is neither surprising, nor credible, nor indicative of a true belief that he was actually the best athlete. He was most popular, most popular sells, so he's #1.</div>Again, name someone who can top Jordan as best athlete. MJ was the greatest scorer of all time, happenned to be arguably best perimeter defender of his era, arguably most clutch player of all time, had the kind of commitment and killer instinct that when he wanted to take over or rip your heart out he would stop for nothing, etc... He is the ultimate warrior, and add that up with talent we have never really seen and all of his accomplishments, and you have a player that can VERY easily be argued as greatest athlete of all time. And whether you want to believe it or not, revolutionizing the game and being an enigma off the court is a big factor as well. That is a big reason why Ali is considered greatest of all time, why Babe Ruth is still for the most part considered the ultimate baseball player, etc...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kobebryant_24OWNEDME @ Jun 6 2007, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The starting centers Wilt played against in 1960's heights and weights:Celtics - 6'9" 215 poundsHawks - 6'9" 205 PoundsLakers - 6'7" 220 pounds (rudy larusso was the closest thing they had to a regularly playing center)Syracuse - 6'9" 230 pounds (and 6'7" 195 pound dolph schayes was playing it a lot too)Detroit - 7'0 225 pounds (the only guy close to wilt's size)Cincinnati - 6'10" 200 poundsNew York - 6'6" 225 pounds (with 6'8" 230 pound charlie tyra coming off the bench)</div>Wilt's 100 point game (against the Knicks, whom you claim started a 6-6 guy), matched him against Darrall Imhoff, who was 6-10, not 6-6. Wasn't some Bill Russell guy the center for the Celtics? 6-9 215 is not accurate. It seems that you are belittling not only the talent of yesterday's players, but their heights and weights as well. I assume you'll also claim that Wilt was playing at his end of career weight of 275 for this entire time as well, to further solidify your point? At least quote the accurate numbers if you want to make a point.There were guys with more size back then, too, but they just weren't that good. That's why they sat on the bench and Chamberlain dominated. Because he was not just big, but a phenomenal athlete. Wilt was the biggest in his time, yes, but again, this is a point in FAVOR of Shaq and Wilt, not against.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 6 2007, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Again, name someone who can top Jordan as best athlete. MJ was the greatest scorer of all time, happenned to be arguably best perimeter defender of his era, arguably most clutch player of all time, had the kind of commitment and killer instinct that when he wanted to take over or rip your heart out he would stop for nothing, etc... He is the ultimate warrior, and add that up with talent we have never really seen and all of his accomplishments, and you have a player that can VERY easily be argued as greatest athlete of all time. And whether you want to believe it or not, revolutionizing the game and being an enigma off the court is a big factor as well. That is a big reason why Ali is considered greatest of all time, why Babe Ruth is still for the most part considered the ultimate baseball player, etc...</div>None of those guys should be #1 either. I don't deny Jordan a spot on the list, just not #1.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 6 2007, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>None of those guys should be #1 either. I don't deny Jordan a spot on the list, just not #1.</div>Then WHO would you put as the top athlete of all time? Putting guys that probably 95% of the population doesn't know is not an answer, either, as marketing and revolutionizing the game is a big part of being a top athlete.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 6 2007, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Then WHO would you put as the top athlete of all time? Putting guys that probably 95% of the population doesn't know is not an answer, either, as marketing and revolutionizing the game is a big part of being a top athlete.</div>No, actually it isn't. That's part of being a popular sports figure/celebrity.I'll take Jesse Owens, Michael Johnson, Carl Lewis, Jim Thorpe, Jim Brown, Wilt Chamberlain, Bo Jackson and Mark Spitz all ahead of Micheal, for starters. Not necessarily in that order, but all in front of MJ.If being the greatest at a single sport is enough, I'll take Wayne Gretzky ahead of Jordan every day and twice on Sunday.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 7 2007, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, actually it isn't. That's part of being a popular sports figure/celebrity.I'll take Jesse Owens, Michael Johnson, Carl Lewis, Jim Thorpe, Jim Brown, Wilt Chamberlain, Bo Jackson and Mark Spitz all ahead of Micheal, for starters. Not necessarily in that order, but all in front of MJ.If being the greatest at a single sport is enough, I'll take Wayne Gretzky ahead of Jordan every day and twice on Sunday.</div>I forgot to add Babe Didrickson. Yes, a girl. Phenomenal athlete.
