Nellie Wins No. 1300

He said that after win 1,300? I mean congrats, Nellie, but isn't that pretty much an admission that he was focusing on reaching this personal accomplishment rather than perhaps doing what's best for the team? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's what the comment sounds like to me.

 

I think you're reading too much into it...

 

HiRez, I'm usually with you, but in this case I'm not. I'm not saying Nelson doesn't care about the record, but don't think he's putting personal accomplishments ahead of the team goals. 1300 is a lot of wins no matter how you slice it and a tremendous accomplishment. Still, it doesn't mean a thing if you don't have the ring, so Nelson still has to prove that Nellie ball wins championships, and in this regard he has been a failure as one of the top NBA head coaches. Nelson will probably go on to become the winning-est NBA coach ever and make the Hall of Fame, but he won't have a ring as a coach. It will be the only blot on an otherwise fine, but turbulent and mottled career. Nelson won't be too patient in developing our youngsters, so the Warriors have got to make sure he does not sacrifice the future in order to win now, and destroy whatever good they have built up. Nelson has done this to teams in the past, so he's capable of doing the big stoopid .

 

I hear you, I just think the timing is odd. For him to say, right after reaching that personal milestone, that now he's going to play the youngsters more for the rest of the year...well, it just sounds to me like the two are related, like "I got what I wanted, now I don't really care anymore". But yeah, I'm sure that's probably not accurate.

 

I think you make my point Run BJM. Nelson hasn't had the players to contend for a championship because he was the one who destroyed the team fabric in order to get the players he thought would get him to the next level. He usually had some kind of problems with his players wherever he went. Moreover, Nelson was the GM, too, or he had a tremendous amount of input and influence as to the type of players he wanted to get. For example, I first became a Warriors fan when Run TMC came together in 1989. Nelson could have built upon that, but the team did not last long. Next, we had the Webber, Sprewell, Billy Owens era and that was short-lived and ended up being a disaster. Nelson gave up three number one picks in order to put that together and the fat dumb bastard ended up destroying the team for years. In the end, he ended up with the wrong players when he started off in the right direction. Time and time again, Nelson wore out his welcome for one reason or another. Whether it was Golden State, New York (problems with Patrick Ewing), Milwaukee, or Dallas (Nash, Finley, and Dirk). In my mind, Nelson needs a strong GM to tell him to shut his fat mouth and do his job which is coaching and leave the player personnel decisions to the GM.

 

Nelson took a calculated risk making the move for Billy Owens. Owens turned out to be a bust. Then, Nelly made a move for a big man (Seikally). Sure, Ronny wasn't a great player, but he would've filled in nicely in that system next to CWebb. At that time, Webber demanded a trade. That team was talented enough to make a run for a championship. Is it Nelson, or Webber that has the track record for breaking up the fabric of teams?

What's a fact, is that Nelly is one of the greatest coaches in NBA history. He's been innovative because the level of talent on his squads demanded it. I think this wave of negativism against Nelly is unfounded.

How many coaches could've taken that team through the 1st round 2 years ago? Honestly? That team had a legitimate shot at winning a championship. And it was in the bottom teir of talent in the playoffs. Look at this team compared to the teams of the past couple of seasons. No Jrich, no Davis, no Monta, no Pietrus, no Barnes, Wright's been banged up, all replaced by a bunch of D-leaguers and role players and raw players. Beans continues to grow...Buike, Bellinelli, Morrow, Turiaf, and Randolph all are infinitely better than when the season started. It has nothing to do with minutes. It has to do with the system, physical and mental maturity, and confidence. Hell, look at Nelly's move with Magette. Could any other coach move him to the 6th man and not hear him whine and cry all day?

If you take emotion out of the equasion, This has been one of Nelly's better coaching seasons. Consider what has happened, the turmoil in the front office, injuiries, etc. Yet the team is playing well together. The youth are playing well now. Heading into next season, is there any player on the team that we don't really know what we have? I'd say Morrow and Wright are the only 2 question marks. And as the season unwinds, that will be answered as well.

Did Nelly do his job well? Throw wins and losses out. Is the team playing well together? Have we identified the players that should stay and go? At the end of the season, can we invision the ceilings on all of our players? Have Randolph, Belly, Beans Jax taken significant steps forward?

For me, it's pretty clear, Repost from awhile ago... to support the talent point

 

Perhaps we should all put the Nelly and youth discussion aside until the off-season. Question to the Nelly supporters/naysayers... What would it take for you to flip your opinion on Nelson between now and next season?

 

Why put it aside? Isn't it a valid topic for conversation (no matter how you feel about it)? And isn't that why this discussion board exists?

 

Nelson doesn't preach defense. Defensive teams win championships. Don Nelson's style is to quicken the tempo by going smaller, thus sacrificing length/strength and attempting to win 120 odd points to the other team's 119 points. It's completely gimmick ball, but it worked for Don Nelson in his stat-padded win column.

He subs in the best offensive guys and he doesn't worry about chemistry or who their defensive assignment is. He just lets the vets run amok and if he's losing he goes smaller. Nelson is definitely a genius when he can dupe the other coach into going small with him when Nelson's team has the advantage going smaller. Right now we suck going small. We can't handle the ball to save our lives or play perimeter D as was predicted earlier this pre-season.

 

Yep. Defense is how teams build chemistry. Even the PO team made their run primarily by fueling their fast breaks with defense, the zone they played with Harrington, and Monta/Baron/Barnes/Pietrus getting steals. Also, that was when Jackson was taking every star assignment personally, putting the handcuffs on guys like Dirk Nowitzki.

But Defense is how you build an identity. Right now, the Warriors look like a bunch of guys who just showed up for a pick-up game at the local gym. And part of that is on Nellie. C'mon! Saying you need a "defensive coordinator?" In order to be a hall-of-fame coach, you need to know defense inside and out. It's half the game! Nellie admitting that he couldn't handle the defense anymore, that was just plain sad, and frankly a slap in the face of hard-working coaches everywhere.

Right now, this team would play the same way the first day they met each other as they would at the end of the season. In other words, they won't play any better. Sure, guys will get healthy, and players will got through hot stretches, but sh!t man, Jackson, Crawford, Maggette -- these "vets" look like they're in a pick up game. They have been playing together for the majority of the season and yet this looks like their first night on the court together.

Why? They don't have any defensive accountability. They don't feel like they owe anything to their teammates. Have you ever worked in a restaurant? In a good restaurant, all the servers have each other's backs -- they pride themselves on not letting their teammates fail, even in the most chaotic and stressful nights, when your head chef goes to the hospital because of a paring knife cut, a busser drops and breaks a $200 bottle of wine, a guest accidentally sets their tablecloth on fire with a candle, and the power somehow goes out for 20 minutes with no generator.

The great co-workers even make it a game to see how they can 1-up each other by doing something special for each other. One server might overhear their coworker take an order of hot tea for 4 people, and when they come back into the kitchen, that server has already gotten it ready. How nice! It's like a band of brothers, in the trenches, and the crazier to battle gets, the more they know they can count on each other.

Are you one of those people that doesn't run back on defense? That's what every man should ask himself when on the court. Frankly, I'd puke before I let myself half-ass it on defense. I just can't bring myself to cherry pick or even consider taking a play off. I'd be way too ashamed of myself. I'd have let my teammates down, and I couldn't live with that.

Well, that's how the Warrior vets look at times. I haven't given up on them. I still think there's hope. But right now, they look like they're in a pick-up game. There is just no sense of brotherhood, of a family, of teamwork.
I'm talking about Jax/Maggette/Crawford. At times Watson and Azibuike, too, but mainly the big three.

If this team ever wants to start being a winner, they need their veteran leaders to play the right way and create accountability on the team.

When Jackson is throwing his temper-tantrums, leaving his teammates out to dry on defense, but Nellie doesn't bench him for it...how can you ever hope to be a winner?

Part of that is on Nellie...

 

CH, I went to a lot of season ticket holder functions during the Nelson era and I thought he was even rubbing fans the wrong way. A coach can't say the same things negative Nellies say on the bull boards. Nelson has a tremendous amount of losses for a winning coach and that is not by accident.

I don't want to revisit the Webber vs Nelson debate, but Nelson trades have killed my enjoyment of the Warriors pretty much every time. I already mentioned taking apart Run TMC for the short-lived CWebb, Sprewell, and Billy O trio. Seikaly was another disaster; It broke up the latter trio and whatever chemistry they had built up their playoff year. Even the recent Nelson playoff team met a short-lived end when Baron and Nelson feuded and Baron was not extended. Coincidence? I think not.

I wouldn't say Nelson was one of the greatest coaches. He may be the winning-est, but great coaches don't take as long as Nelson to get there and they don't have such a huge loss column and they have rings.

Since Mullin is gone anyway, I would say to kick the fat dumb bastard off the team, as well. He's a disaster waiting to happen with Riley and Rowell. If they destroy the fabric of the Warriors, then I may as well just chuck the Warriors for good. The only thing that might save this franchise is if Cohan sells the team.

 

I think most people have stated their opinions on Nelly. Which is why I said we should either reframe it or put it aside. Leaving D'Antoni because of style for Porter worked out pretty well in Phoenix, right? I stand by Nelly as one of the gratest, most-innovative coaches in NBA history. You may chose to believe differently, but he always ends up with a competitive product, even when the talent isn't there. We'll see what happens in a year. I think I'll be telling everyone I told you so, but I think most people have made up their minds. It couldn't be that Nelly got the best out of the guys, it's that they were just these freak athletes that just needed playing time. Which I personally find laughable in today's game. In the old days, players learned to play basketball and filled out in college, that's just not true these days. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

 

Well...sometimes. The thing about the Nellie Warriors is they can beat anyone, but they can also lose to anyone. They laid a big fat smelly turd in L.A. last night, and I don't care if Monta is playing or not, there's no way in hell this team should lose more than once in 10 games to that Clipper team. And it's not just the Clippers, we see it over and over again with all the terrible teams the Warriors manage to lose to. This year they have lost to the Clippers, Knicks, Thunder (twice), Kings (twice), Pacers (twice), T-wolves, Wizards, Grizzlies, and Raptors. In other words, they have lost to every team in the league with a worse record than they have, and I expect a loss to Charlotte in their next game as well. Half the time they just don't show up to play. They are undisciplined, and always have been under Nelson, and he's got to take some of the blame for that. Motivation and enforcing discipline is a coach's responsibility. Unless you are a 1-2 year player, there is no consequence for jacking up a bad, selfish shot, not looking to pass, not moving the ball. The worse it gets, the smaller Nellie's lineups get, and except for one out of five games when they are shooting lights out, it just doesn't work because they get killed inside and on the boards.

And AO is right about the defense. It is half the game and you can't just ignore that. Now Nelson has admitted defense is not really his thing, which is obvious if you've ever watched his teams play, but he finally said it flat out. The best label I could put on Nelson is that he can be a wily, unpredictable, sometimes innovative offensive coach. But that's not enough for me to call him a great coach.

Having said that, I certainly don't think this whole mess is entirely Nelson's fault, but it's partly on him. Part of it is, he's just not the right coach for this current team IMO. I'm really afraid he's going to just say screw it and retire, and leave us with this screwed up roster of 10 off-guards that is tailored for his unique style. Hopefully Biedrins, Randolph, and Wright won't be jettisoned before he leaves too.

 

Young teams just don't play well on the road. Notice how they feed off the crowd and play well at home? Do you think it's a cooincidence that they are playing better in Feb and that it's a huge homestand? That's pretty much one of the only consistent themes in the NBA. The team was clicking at the beginning, and choked down the stretch. The team threw the game away with lazy turnovers. They got comfortable, Nelly benched Belinelli because of lazy play, and put a lineup in that made a push to get back in it. Honestly, Do you expect this team to be consistent?

As for Nelly, I think he's taken more bad teams further than any other coach has. And the teams that had potential he took further than they should've. Look at the TMC team that gave the Lakers a run. The team that took out San Antonio. How many teams could've done that. 2 years ago, was that team really good enough to be where it was? Was it these antics of Nelly that inspired a group of rag-tag players to play at a level that they never had before? I just don't get it. I'd love to see how long any other coach would make it with this team.

Who do you want coaching, if not Nelly? Sloan isn't available, and neither is Jackson. Who else?

 

Rag tag? That team was very, very good. Jason Richardson, Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Andris Biedrins... that was a very solid core. Plus you had Pietrus, Barnes and Azibuike filling the fast-break lanes off the bench. Yes, they made a miraculous run to get into the playoffs, but once there, the showed they were no joke.

I agree. I isn't entirely Nelson's fault. And, if you know my posts, you'll remember that I've called Nellie a genius in the past. And I still stick by that. I think his vision to "run run run" with Monta, Baron, Pietrus, and Barnes was a thing of beauty. Those 4 players could run circles around teams. It didn't hurt to have Biedrins playing like an all-star Jackson hitting clutch shots. And his zone using Harrington on Yao Ming and Barnes at the point? That was awesome! Nellie has shown he has a great basketball mind.

However, what I'm talking about is accountability. A truly great coach would not admit defeat when it comes to defense. He would not throw his hands up and ask an assistant to take over. He would lose sleep and tear his hair out trying to figure out how to help his team be great.

Right now, this team has no defensive accountability. That's why they will never build chemistry. Who cares if you hit a three on one end when you then let your man walk right around you, come into the lane and dunk on me when my back's turned? That's pretty much what guys like Crawford and Jackson do at times. CJ Watson too.

Because defense is hard work. That's why guys don't want to do it. It's not necessarily fun. It's hard. And it's a bunch of extra energy expended that doesn't get you stats or boost your contract leverage as a free agent. If I spend all my time sweating blood and tears on defense, I won't have time to get my points and get a better contract this off-season.

Well, any great coach will tell you that championship teams are built on defense. That's different than saying defense wins championships. Two different things. When I say championship teams are built on defense, I mean that defense is how you build team chemistry. Defense is how you build accountability. It's how you build identity.

A team identity where the players know their coach doesn't really care about defense, where the players have free will to shoot any time they want, even if they just crapped on their teammates and never even ran back pass half-court on defense... sure, that's an identity. But is that an identity you want? Let me tell you, it won't strike fear into the hearts of the other teams.

Scoring points is the fun part. But it only feels truly good if you know you gave an honest effort on defense first. It's like eating your peas and carrots before you get dessert.

NBA players don't like teams that sacrifice themselves and grind every possession out defensively. That's why, let me tell you right now, players do not like facing the Utah Jazz. And that's with Boozer out! They don't like it because they know "ah crap, here comes this Harpring guy again." And they know that here's this guy off the bench that doesn't even score 10 points a game and yet they know he's going to make life a living hell for them.

Championship teams are built on defense. Because that's where chemistry starts. And good defense makes offense easy. Good defense means more outlet passes and less inbounding the ball. Good defense means more deflections and more fast breaks. Good defense means more opponents getting frustrated and then losing focus on the other end of the court.

I'm not saying Nellie should be Jerry Sloan. What I'm saying is that he has failed to enforce accountability. When you don't bench Jax for a temper tantrum, you've failed your team. You've let them down as a coach. It's even worse that this is the guy you labeled team captain, and then you let him do it. It's even worse because Jax is such a good player. Is he above the team, then, coach?

Part of this is on the players. Because They should have personal pride to play the right way. But part of it is on Nellie, too, despite his great coaching mind. Because a coach's job is to keep his players honest. And, no matter how many threes you make, you'll never sniff a championship if you don't feel it is your duty as a player to sacrifice yourself for the good of the team, and die for your fellow comrades on defense.

I love run-n-gun. I want the Warriors to run. It's fun! I just want them to earn it by playing the right way. And right now, it's apparent that these guys are not playing fundamental team ball. And part of that is on the coach.

 

Rag-Tag, yes. A young Monta, JRich is an above average 2-guard. I love watching him, and his heart, but he's not top tier. Davis was playing out of his mind (He was my favorite player in the league even before he came to the Warriors) but we all know his short comings. Jackson is an all around player, but he's a 4th or 5th option on a title contender at best. Beidrins was still developing and Harrington is a scrapper. I'd call that rag tag. I mean, Pietrus was a dunce and got minutes, and Barnes was all heart, but not really a great player. It was a group of misfits that Nelly got to play together. You can't tell me that any other coach would've had that team winning. I'm just not buying it. The team was blowing people out without any kind of front line.

As far as defensive accountablity... True, Nelly's never been about buckle-down D, but he takes advantage of it using mismatches and transition ball, which this team has actually been doing pretty well. He's been benching players for lazy play (except for Mags, Crawford, and Jax) but 1 is your captain and the others needed court time as the trading deadline was nearing. The guys that could benefit the most for being pulled for not boxing out, lazy D, and trying to do too much were pulled. And they're all better for it. Sure, Smart has been pushing them on the defensive side, but isn't that a head coach's job? To deligate when it's the right time for it? Smart is going to be a better coach in the future for coaching under Nelly, too.

As for Utah, I couldn't agree more. I love Sloan as a coach. Personally, I think he's the best coach in the league. But he's not available. Maybe in a year when everyone jumps ship it'll be time for him to leave.. .and guess who else will be looking to leave?

As for the fundamentally bad ball. That has to do more with the youth not knowing how to play than the system. They're getting better though. I was EXTREMELY harsh on Wright and Randolph earlier in the year. Not to say that they're playing that great basketball now...But they both stepped up. They were working hard in practice to get better (you know it wasn't because of court time). Who got them playing that way? Was it the magic court time rabbit that got them to miraculously learn how to box out, pass the ball to better shooters, fill lanes, and run the floor? Nope, it was Nelson. Go back and watch some of those games that Randolph "showed so much promise in" earlier in the year. You'll see that for every play he made, he screwed up 5 times. He still makes some rookie mistakes, but damn if he's not playing legitimate NBA basketball now.

I hear what you're saying about run-n-gun and the lack of accountability. What I'm saying is that I agree with you 100% about that, I just don't think that Nelly is ignoring it as most feel. I think he's bringing the kids along at a good pace. The team and individuals on the team are going to be better because of this season.

 

CH also brought up a good point that a lot of the young guys we get out of the draft simply aren't ready either physically or mentally or skills-wise. 3-4 years of college would have helped some of these players who've just gotten by on instinct and being more athletic than the level of competition they've faced. If they are truly ready and have the potential that guys like Wright and Randolph have we'd be drafting in the top 5 and be getting a Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard or a Chris Paul. Guys who are just ready to go because they got the physical tools, the unselfishness, and are wise beyond their years.

Right now we're out there stuck below the first 8 picks in the draft and getting guys who have potential, but not the kind of 1st and 2nd year impact like Carmelo Anthony or LaMarcus Aldridge have. I like our young guys... but like many on this board have said, we need a franchise guy that sets the tone in all kinds of areas and make others better.

Regarding our current team: while I'm glad we're trying to make the best of our 8th or below picks and bolstering the ranks with more veteran depth, I just worry we'll continue to be mediocre and lose out on the type of picks that have changed Portland around (3 top 5 picks in a row!). As far as free agent money goes, we could be offering two max contracts and my feeling is that nobody good wants to come here and work for Cohan's clowns.

Plus, AO is right. The warriors need to play defense every possession. The difficulty is when either Don Nelson doesn't have the lineups to play good defensive ball due to injury, or he just chooses to ignore it when going smaller for offensive purposes. The other side is we don't take care of the ball well enough and we just don't go inside more often. Why do we settle for all these jumpers when it's not going down? Why don't we pass more or try to run plays?

That's sort of been my frustration with Nelly ball and Cohan's franchise ownership with guys like Robert f'n Rowell f'ing up the works. Actually, maybe it's not Rowell's doing, because Cohan is the ownership and everyone has to do what he says or else. So it really is probably Chris f'n Cohan f'n up the works even more.

p.s. Harrington isn't really a scrapper unless he's cleaning up his own misses. AHOR is a new stat which means Al Harrington Offensive rebounds. 2 of his 7-8 total rebounds per night are probably dedicated to this. I haven't seen AH consistently battle with other 6'10 guys for control of the glass or do the Ben Wallace type role play.

 

Because there's no consequence for inappropriate behavior, it seems. Guys make the same careless, lazy decisions now as they did when they first arrived. All these one-handed passes. All these forced, careless passes through traffic. All these inappropriate threes from poor shooters. All these missed rotations. All these senseless turnovers.

When Jackson can do everything you're NOT supposed to do as a fundamental player, and get away with it, well, that's the tone you're setting. There's your team identity, Don Nelson.

The rest of the league knows GS as that one team where the coach will let his vets do any stupid-ass thing they want to, without any consequences. That one weird team that's so FUKIN easy to score against because they don't really see any reason to guard. That one team that has these three vets that think they're stars, and if you just humor them, and let them believe they are, they'll shoot themselves right into another loss.

That's the reason they do it, CR2. Because they can. 7th grade students would rather doodle, chew gum, pass notes and then cheat, than actually study before taking your history exam. If you let them, they will.