Fluctuating weekly MVP discussion.

Re: Wade new #2

Everyone, JE thinks we had the talent in 2006 to win 54 games.

Wow dude, I guess Jordan sucks for not winning 54 games somehow early on in his career?

 

Re: Wade new #2

Here was the roster for our 2005-2006 season, what Kobe had to work with.

Hm, let's break it down.

Sasha Vujacic - super scrub at the time, no explanation needed
Kobe Bryant
Von Wafer - 2nd round rookie, cut after the season
William "Smush" Parker - scrub, who started for us, later signed by Miami to a 2 year contract, couldn't even last 1 season
Devin Green - scrub, who the hell is he?
Aaron McKie - 50 year old McKie couldn't even keep up with a snail, scrub, retired after the season I believe
Jim Jackson - scrub, retired after the season
Laron Profit - injured the whole year, retired after
Luke Walton - scrub, look how well he's lit up the league this year!
Devean George - this man can barely get off the bench for Dallas
Lamar Odom - inconsistent, 3rd option at best
Brian Cook - are you kidding me? where is he now, he couldn't get time in Orlando, or Houston
Stanislav Medvedenko - super scrub, where is he now?
Kwame Brown - our starting center, super bust who can barely get off the bench for Detroit
Ronny Turiaf - 2nd round pick coming off of open heart surgery, hm...
Chris Mihm - out for basically the entire season, done
Andrew Bynum - 17 year old rookie

How that team even managed to make it to the playoffs, let alone almost beat the #2 seeded Suns surprises me to this day. Look at the roster, and the talent Kobe had surrounding him. Besides Lamar (3rd-4th option) and the rookies (common sense), NOBODY on that roster is playing a significant role for any NBA team. The guys who are actually still in the league are bench warmers, pretty much every single one of them. Actually, all of them, except Luke, but that's another story (Phil loves him).

Our starting lineup was an absolute joke.

Smush Parker, the starting point guard, was so good he was out of the league, not even 1 season into his 2 year deal with the Heat. I wonder why? Our starting center after Mihm destroyed his knees, is a super bust who can't get off the bench for Detroit. Not to mention the rest of the players in our rotation at the time can barely even sniff the court for any other team after they left the Lakers. The talent level for that team was a joke. How we managed to make the playoffs and actually stay competitive just testifies to how great of a player Kobe is.

And no, the East, back then, and now, does not compare to the West (playoff seeding wise). No way.

Miami, at 36-29, would not even make the playoffs in the west. The 8th seed is Dallas, at 40-26. So the record means nothing. Wade's team wouldn't even make the playoffs in the west.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Furthermore, in 2005-2006 season, Lamar averaged 15 points and 9 boards.

Currently, JO is averaging 13 points and 7 boards.

Lamar has the upper hand, but it's not THAT big of a difference.

Also not factoring in that the rest of Wade's team, currently, is a lot better than the crap Kobe had to work with.

 

Re: Wade new #2

but aren't the cavs still tied with us at the top? 53 Wins is still 53 Wins.

LeBron has had some impact games but dude... 3 str8 trip doubles? (although most of them are overrated and he actually stat padded to get them)

But you can't deny LBJ is almost surpassing kobe, sure kobe looks smoother but everyone said that LBJ sucks at FT's and treys, the guy shot 14-16 from the line the other night and is now consistently knocking down treys with that ugly ass jumper (2-6, 3-8, thats better than 0-2, 0-4 3 pt games by kobe)...

it just pains me to see wade leapfrogging kobe when kobe is doing almost the same as wade but has a better team.

 

Re: Wade new #2

What the flying fuck...?

And he put up largely similar numbers the season before. It doesn't matter that Marion was that much better than Odom, that's fairly obvious. Marion was a constant between the 04-05 and 05-06 seasons (with/without Amare). Is Marion's 2.4 PPG increase and .6 RPG increase the reason the Suns were able to maintain the previous season's success without their all-star big man and favorite target of Nash?

How we got on that tangent, I forget.

I don't know, you said it.

I didn't say you should have won 54 games. The Suns shouldn't have won 54 games. But they did, because Nash found a way to make do with the pieces around him, while Kobe (the better player) did not. Which is why Nash won MVP that year.

Fail.

Which, according to you, would make them subpar players.

lol

Did they ever resort to starting a power forward who barely makes size at his natural position? Kwame didn't have a bad postseason by the way, 13 and 6. So not sure what the fuss about WE DIDINT HAF MIM! is for.

Neither do I, considering I never said that.

And you continue to ignore the key word: circumstances; probably because it rips your entire argument to shreds. Wade, had his shoulder been healthy, would have a) been in better shape, b) play most if not all of the season, c) be able to play his game, slashing to the basket, a lot better as opposed to what he ended up doing - settling for mid-range jump shots and reducing the amount of driving to the basket, for fear that his already-injured shoulder gets wacked again and it ends up being career-threatening.

What confuses me most about your position is that, on one hand, you tirelessly defend Kobe and state that he, not Nash, should have won MVP in 2006 (and he should not have). On the other hand, you've already compared Wade this season to Kobe's year in 06. The teams around them, whether you like it or not, are largely similar. What Wade is doing with this team is astounding similar to what Kobe did with the 06 Lakers, and Miami's success will very likely surpass the Lakers'. Yet, in your mind, Kobe deserved it but didn't win it in 06, but Wade doesn't deserve it at all? Because Kobe didn't win (although he deserved it so much), Wade shouldn't win? That is a fanboyish position if I've ever seen one. Practically the equivalent to admitting that Wade deserves the MVP, then folding your arms and saying 'but Kobe didn't win, so Wade can't win! Humph!'.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Maybe marginally better. The only non-negligable improvement are in some of the bench players, but even those aren't huge differences.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Yes they are. Miami has players in their rotation who can play significant roles on other teams. Lakers didn't, as I already mentioned.

Furthermore, you fail to address that if Miami was in the west, they wouldn't even be in the playoffs. If the Lakers were in the East that year, they'd be the 5th seed.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Why does the conference thing even matter? What matters is, the Heat are playing their best basketball of the season and will snatch the 4 seed. Complaining about where they'd place in the West is useless and petty, and if you're doing that, you're probably looking for reasons to deny giving Wade the award.

In the end, the idiot voters will probably come up with reasoning similar to yours as an excuse to hand the award to LeBron, since after all, they themselves set the asinine precedent of only players on the very best teams getting the award.

As far as the rest of your post, Miami barely had any production from their big men until O'Neal was acquired. Fuck, they started Haslem at center and put both Marion and Beasley in the starting lineup. On the perimeter they were a strong team, but inside they got raped. O'Neal doesn't make their interior play a strength, but its better than it was.

This increased depth that you speak of only comes in the form of better shooters to complement Wade's driving, meaning he himself makes those players (Jones, Cook) better.

 

Re: Wade new #2

What the flying fuck did you just say before then?

What is your point anyway? The Suns clearly have more talent, Odom doesn't compare to an All-Star like him, he's pathetic.

Uh again, clarify this.

Dude wtf?

Nash didn't find a way to do anything, Diaw stepped up and he has "better" teammates, which all along is the ONLY reason you say Wade deserves the MVP. Yet if KOBE has disgusting teammates you ignore that fact and say Nash magically got it done and give it to clearly a Weaker MVP contender. LeBron is a better MVP winner than Nash, The Lakers had a worse team than the Heat do this season and play in the Western conference, you have absolutely no case to support Wade and deny Kobe.

He's as effective a Center as Mihm was.

Why do you say that?

Oh my bad! Brian Cook makes our overall depth better!

Wow you are a joke dude, Kwame had one decent 7 game series? OH SHITZ ALL STAR, 13 and 6?!?!!

So why the hell would you bring up how "skullfucked" LeBron's shoulder would be?

I think context shreds your argument apart, I noticed how you SKIMMED over my analysis of both rosters. The Heat will be lucky to win 45 games, after all your trash talk of just how exactly our roster is superior.

A, B, C)Wade didn't have his shoulder healthy, he has a history of nagging injuries. Yeah I know, he was in real pain after getting injured against the Rockets and needed a wheelchair to get off the court. LeBron blows him away here dude, you've got no case. I'd add a "fail" here but that is so played out and unfunny.

No I'm consistent, you're not. You point out teammates in one case, but if Kobe has shitty teammates you don't give a fuck and ignore any type of intelligent empirical analysis.

How shouldn't Bron win? I don't think you've presented one good case to make me think LeBron wouldn't put "stats" or carry a team with more talent than LA's roster in 06, aka the Heat this year.

Nope Wade doesn't deserve it because LeBron James isn't Steve Nash. LeBron James didn't win 65 games back in 2006 and take the MVP from Kobe so I feel just fine denying Nash.

 

Re: Wade new #2

First of all, chill out.

Second of all, I have no problem giving Wade the MVP over Lebron, nor do I really care. But if Wade "deserves" the MVP this year, then Kobe sure as hell got robbed, and Nash sure as hell made out like a bandit in 2005-2006. If we agree on that point, then the debate is pretty much moot, since the basic reason why I'm saying Wade shouldn't deserve the award is by using some of the reasons as to why Kobe didn't win it in 05-06.

And I'm sure Kwame was much better right? Or what about the loads of other crap on the roster in 05-06 that Kobe had to carry on his shoulders. Where are they now? Lakers barely had any production from their point guard, the starting point guard couldn't even last on the Heat's roster for 1 year.

And Kobe didn't have to make guys like Smush, Kwame, Gump, Cook, etc. better? Those players all played key roles on our squad, and when they left the Lakers, they turned into water boys.

 

Re: Wade new #2

So if players on the Heat have a great game, it's because Wade made his teammates better. Yet when a scrub Laker has a great game, it's "OMG he's not so bad afterall!!!!!"

 

Re: Wade new #2

Precisely, Kobe doesn't have half-bad teammates, it's just that Nash "gets it done"; overachieves.

Jordan couldn't even win 41 games during some of his great seasons, it's because he didn't have the intangibles Nash did.

 

Re: Wade new #2

*whoosh*. Clear over your head.



Nash made the talent better. Nash was the reason that, despite that roster having much less talent than the previous (in the form of 3 or their 5 starters being gone/injured), that team was able to post a season comparable to the team's outstanding previous season.

Both teams had 45 win talent. Kobe's team won that many games. Nash's team should have only won that many games, but Nash made everyone around him a much better player. Trade Nash's bench players for Kobe's, and the results would still be similar.

Boris Diaw, for one, is not the reason Phoenix won that many games. They probably still would have gotten 50 without him. For two, even mentioning Diaw as the x-factor completely kills your arguement (again), because Nash made Diaw. Just like Nash made the rest of that roster. If you were tuned in to the NBA back then, and not just the Lakers, you would know that Nash's abilities to make his teammates better and turn a thin roster into a deep roster was second to none during that time.

The hell does that even mean? Are you heading down the 'better player' road again?

Just like you have no business touting Kobe and bashing Wade, without coming off as an angry fanboy.

No he isn't. By using this faulty reasoning, you could find a way to justify starting Chuck Hayes or Glen Davis at center.

You've taken shits on Odom this entire thread. Then you come out and say that Marion and O'Neal had similar production (less actually) to Odom. Logic can tell you the rest.

Yes, Kwame Brown posted 13 and 6 in the very playoff series that you were whining about Mihm missing earlier. Those numbers were better than Mihm's regular season numbers. Making your 'we didn't have Mihm' excuse bunk.

Would be? No, the only way to accurately judge if LeBron could really make the 07-08 a better team, in the same circumstances as Wade, would be if LeBron had the same shoulder injury that Wade had. One would think that's fairly obvious. You're essentially holding injury against Wade, which is bullshit.

Lucky to win 45? They basically need to tread water the rest of the way to reach 45. Considering the way they've been playing lately, a little higher win total and the 4 seed is a pretty realistic goal.

Horse. Shit. Wade suffered a horrific shoulder injury late in 06-07 that ruined his 07-08 season, keeping him from doing the things that are his personal strengths as a player. You are holding this against him, by clinging to the theory that because LeBron would not have suffered that injury, that automatically makes him the more viable MVP candidate. Shitty reasoning at its most blatant, complete ignorance on the topic of comparing two players' seasons and abilities to make their teams better on a level playing field, and more than anything, bias. It is you who has no case, and it is you who embarrassed himself with that statement.

Kobe's teammates were not that much worse than Wade's. Wade has a slightly superior roster around him, mostly a negligable difference.

What the fuck does this mean? Poorly worded.

I have no idea what any of that has to do with anything.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Good try.


Now take off the purple sunglasses, and try to find the variable between players like Nash and Wade, and players like Kobe.

 

Re: Wade new #2

What variable? So Wade and Nash make their teammates better, and Kobe doesn't? Is that what you are saying?

So when Smush Parker averages 12 ppg in his 2 years with the Lakers, and then goes to Miami to play with Wade, and can't even sniff the court, let alone stay on the roster for a single season, what happened? I guess Smush just felt like playing in LA right? He didn't want to play in Miami? Why didn't Wade make him better? What about someone like Brian Cook who averaged 7 to 8 ppg and played regularly in our rotation. Supposedly a terrific shooting "big man." Where is he now? He couldn't get minutes in Orlando, and he can't get minutes now in Houston. And Kwame? What about him? Where is he now after he left Kobe and the Lakers? Nowhere. He's averaging 3 ppg and can't even get off the bench for the Pistons, yet on the Lakers he averaged 13 and 6 in the postseason? Wow.

I guess it's all pretty much a coincidence then that when all these scrubs left the Lakers, they magically turned into water boys. Guess Kobe doesn't make his teammates better at all, they just felt like trying in LA right?

Your blind hatred towards Kobe and the Lakers has obviously clouded your thoughts.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Except Nash didn't make out like a bandit in 06, he made out like the right choice and a more worthy winner than Kobe.

Last season's roster, a.k.a. the year of Wade's injury and other players' subsequent laziness. If Wade was healthy, Smush might have been a decent bench player in a shooter role.

Averaging 7 points a game makes you a key player? With that same reasoning, I'll raise you Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, Jason Kapono and Gary Payton, all of which are no longer with the Heat and all but one have disappeared (and the 'one', Kapono, has reduced production with less guys around him to take shots away).

FTR, Cook doesn't play in Orlando because of his attitude, and Kwame still plays in Detroit, though his minutes have recently been cut.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Not to that extent, but you're getting warmer.

One, I already went over how Wade's 07-08 season was hindered by his shoulder. Miami also wasn't as strapped for point guards as the Lakers (the teams' weaknesses are in different areas), and as a result Riley quickly tired of Smush.

Cook: teams have soured on him because of his attitude. I didn't even know he left Orlando.

Brown: doesn't get as many oppurtunities to play in Detroit, since they go 4 deep at the big positions, not including Kwame. Kwame was also helped in that series by getting to face the non-existent big men of the Suns; he had Boris Diaw and Brian Grant trying to defend him. Shawn Bradley could have had a big series in that matchup.

Addressed in my previous post.

Don't be an idiot.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Really? Scoring 81 points, outscoring an entire Mavs team in 3 quarters, averaging 35 ppg, taking a team full of scrubs to the playoffs doesn't deserve an MVP? Kobe did everything Wade is doing this year, but more.

lol

No he wouldn't. Smush isn't a decent bench player, there's a reason why he isn't in the league. Still doesn't explain the fact that the Heat signed him to a 2 year deal, and then released him, not even a season in. Seems to me like they were fooled by how well Kobe made him look on the Lakers.

Of course Cook was a key player, he was a key rotational player who averaged 19 mpg.

Williams, Walker, and Payton are all moot points. The reason why they have disappeared (common sense), is because of age and they retired. Wade didn't make Williams, Walker, or Payton better players than their last team did.

And I thought it was pretty much clear that the reason why Kapono succeeded in Miami is because he had someone in the paint (Shaq) to free up and space and give him open looks.

Cook didn't play in Orlando because he was out of shape, and didn't want to get in shape. Yet the same Cook was in LA playing crucial minutes, with Kobe, who turned him into a 7 ppg key rotational scorer. Kwame's minutes have been cut because he sucks. Yet he was the Laker's starting center, who averaged 13 and 6 in the playoffs, as you have mentioned.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Considering you came in before the season and argued that the Spurs were gonna beat the Lakers this year (fail), I'm questioning whether or not you can put your hatred aside from Kobe and the Lakers and actually make some reasonable arguments.

 

And btw, you make it seem like I'm trying to say Wade doesn't make his teammates better, which is absolutely false. I'm saying none of that. I'm saying that if you don't believe Kobe makes his teammates better, than that's laughable.