Fluctuating weekly MVP discussion.

Re: Wade new #2

You're a terrible analysis of empirical data, you tried to pawn off Odom's stats as a #2 in an impressive manner, when they are just on par with this broken down Marion in Miami. You're constantly saying, this and such guy can't rebound, Puke and George are so good? You don't even know when Sasha and Puke had their contract years, it wasn't in 06.

Barbosa, Diaw, and Bell have played just as well without Nash. Eddie House is a much better bench player than anything Kobe had to work with.

If Wade is so good why is he on pace to win less games if he is MVP? Haha nice one there.

Again, stop PMSing please. It is embarrassing how much you lose your temper.

What exactly are you trying to say, that you do not understand that there are two sides in basketball? They're better at putting the ball in the bucket than either Mihm or Kwame, you simply focus on the areas they lack. Looking at it from an overall perspective I sincerely doubt there is any clear advantage to our "Centers" and depth.

Brian Cook is a talented basketball player? I don't know how they don't have better PF depth.

Wow dude, talking up Cook and Kwame now?

Per 48, Cook scores 19 points and 9 boards for the Lakers. Hey that's pretty good! But he actually gives up 21 and 10 to his opponents. He's a joke, you just have no idea what you even want to say. If Wade was so good he'd have won many more games by now in the softer conference.

Kwame is a black hole on offense, .

I don't know who was saying the Suns had less talent than the Lakers that season, coming off 34 wins.

Diaw's playing just as good as Odom in Charlotte, I guess you'll deny that for some BS reason?

Marion was slowing down in Phoenix, with the best record in the league that season.

Marion's "numbers" don't encompass how much better a defender he is than Odom either, it isn't always about "stats", as you put it.

Personally I think you've lost it man, you went into this debate saying one thing about Kobe not winning enough, then another thing about how someone winning 44 games should not disqualify him. I feel like bringing it up, where is the strawman?

Nash plays defense? He's all offensive prowess, in a fast paced offense he only looked elite in with the right team. Not very impressive.

Are you honestly talking up Chris Mihm as if he were Chris Kaman? He averaged 10/6 in limited games, and?

Well I'm sorry you didn't get my point then, I was saying they were just as effective, if not more than Odom per minute.

Yeah But playing with Kobe, who was distributing that series and deferring, had nothing to do with it? Right.

How would it happen? It is much more likely it wouldn't happen. Plus I don't understand what your point is because if it DID happen, and LeBron got hurt, how does this change the fact that you're also speculating about how much Wade would help the Cavs? You're telling me not to speculate, then you speculate yourself.

51 games in 06-07, then 51 games very ineffectively the year after is quite significant I'd say.

Why would you ever bring up injuries in a Wade MVP debate? It only hurts his case if anything.

I'm not the one bringing up 15 wins in the media all the time.

Uh dude, you ignoring why Wade can't win MORE games than Kobe, with the same roster is what kills your argument. I'm simply wondering why you're allowed to speculate, but I am not.

Sure you are.

So why have voters used wins in their criteria for MVP, if Bron's just MOP?

Dude you are the one freaking out the most in this thread.

Nash makes his teammates better, in the right system.

No I haven't failed, the Mavs should have been seeded higher but had to meet the Spurs a round earlier, aka take care of the Suns' dirty work for them. The Clippers won 47 games, we won 45... Oh I'm so impressed.

How do you know that? The MVP is usually given to a Superstar player. Nash is one of the few non-Superstars to win it in recent history actually.

I haven't already shown you?

The only people that watch the Lakers and Heat regularly here are me. I broke down empirically both rosters, I think they obviously should win more in the EAST, man. It is even worse that they struggle this bad over there.

34 wins before and the Lakers had us in the playoffs after the Caron Butler trade for Kwame?

Nah.

 

Sorry this is hilarious.

Keep coming. You'll just embarrass yourself like you did in the Lakers/Spurs debate.

 

So what is the criteria for MVP?

Your criteria, again:

"The player who, if you take them away from that team, that teams suffers the most. "

Take MJ off the Bulls, they lose an extra 2 games. Yep, they sure did suffer.

Following your logic then, all of MJ's MVPs were frauds, since his team clearly didn't suffer at all when he left.

Um, no, if you actually read my post, it was based off of your criteria.

Down Nash and Amare? Your point? I can say the same for the Lakers down Kobe Bryant.

No he wouldn't, 23-25 wins top.

I don't care who you are, if you coach a team with Lamar Odom as your #1 option, followed by a bunch of scrubs on D-Leaguers, you won't get anywhere.

Lakers, meanwhile, without Kobe, would be truly terrible because they have no point guards or swing men. Oh, and no big men (aka a team of Odom, Smush Parker, Cook, George and Kwame).

And once again, you have yet to explain to me how Wade makes his teammates so much better than Kobe, beyond the extra 2 ppg Jason Williams averaged, which I can say for numerous teammates Kobe had to play with. So don't bring up that BS, or the Jason Kapono BS either, which I disputed and you never responded to.

Yeah, um, give me the former, a team of Marion, Bell, Diaw, and Thomas. At least all these four can be valuable contributors in the league, unlike Smush, Cook, George, and Kwame. And a Suns team has no big man? Last I checked, Diaw is a power forward. And Kurt Thomas can play center, and is much better than super bust Kwame Brown, who actually started for the Lakers. In that case, the Lakers (as I stated above) are void of a big man, a swing man, and a point guard.

A Suns team without Nash and Amare is still more talented and better than a Laker team without Kobe. I'd like to see you dispute this one, since I already broke down how terrible the Lakers roster was during the 05-06 season earlier on. Not my fault if you decided to skip the post entirely.

 

"unlike your short-sighted excuse for a position that the MVP should go to the best player on the best team."

really? Way to put words in my mouth.

Post #69

JE: Do you honestly think Dirk deserved the MVP in 2007?

Me: I think the MVP should be awarded to the best player in the league. In that case, Kobe in 05-06.

Nope, based off of your logic.

"The player who, if you take them away from that team, that teams suffers the most. "

MJ's team didn't suffer at all. 2 games is nothing, thus he obviously shouldn't have won the MVP.

Again, not my fault your logic fails.

 

Here is Post #57 in the thread, which you completely ignored:

And I didn't. I backed it up with other points, not my fault you decided to pick and choose which one to respond to.

No need to get up over your head and start calling me blind and stupid.

Smush Parker played for the Lakers because we had nothing at point. No team today is as thin and bad at point guard as the Lakers were back then. Thus, you have admitted, yourself, that Smush Parker is a horrible basketball player, and that he sucks. Yet he averaged 12 ppg in his two seasons as a Laker, when before that, he couldn't even make an NBA team. After the Lakers, he's playing overseas.

Point is, his production didn't increase that much. Not to mention he averaged 4 minutes more in Miami. And no, J-Will was never a super scrub in his career like a Smush Parker, or Kwame Brown, or Brian Cook. If you're talking about 2 ppg as a means of Wade making his teammates so much better, I can do the same for pretty much all the scrubs on the Lakers roster at the time.

Your point?

And your point?

You're the one who brought up Walker as somebody who Wade helped improve, not me. I pointed out that statistically wise, he declined ever since coming to Miami. So what is it? Did Wade help improve his game, or was he just on a natural decline like you said he was? Why did you bring up his name in the first place if he didn't get better in Miami.

So in other words, he is a shooter who is playing a bigger role for his team. So in other words, he is the primary shooter at the 2 or 3. So in other words, teams focus more on him and key up on him defensively, yet he has still put up relatively similar numbers, on same %.

Your point?

Well then you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Cook always had a bad attitude, ever since his rookie year. There's a reason why he always moped around the court, never gave any effort, continued to pack on pounds ever since entering the league. His stints with Orlando and Houston are no different than his stint with LA.

Really? Mihm wasn't missed? A healthy Chris Mihm was one of the most consistent players on the roster. Yes he was missed, because if the guys going up against Kwame Brown, who had no offense touch what-so-ever (I'd like to hear you try to debunk this) was able to put up respectable numbers, than Mihm, who actually has something that resembled an offensive game, would've helped a lot more.

It's common sense that Kwame is a bust, a scrub as well. Thus he sucks, which pretty much everybody knows, yet he was able to put up respectable numbers in LA, because Kobe made him better.

Let's see, from averaging 28 minutes a game, to 14, notable drop off in difference. Obviously the guy is nowhere near a starter in this league, yet Kobe helped make him look, at least somewhat respectable, and even made the playoffs in a stacked western conference with this bum manning the paint, along with a point guard who can no longer make it in the league.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Do I care when Sasha and Puke had their contract years? Is that relevant to my argument? No it isn't. Nice strawman.

False.

No one can possibly be this thick-headed. I've said, a million times, that the inabilities of his big men to rebound sufficiently or play even average defense down low is what has been killing the Heat. Do you expect Wade to defend power forwards and centers in the paint?

You still don't get it? Holy shit. JO'N is essentially a seven foot small forward. He can't establish himself as an offensive post threat, defensive post threat, quality rebounder, anything. He doesn't fucking do the things an NBA quality center needs to be able to do. That's lost on you, clearly. Considering that you fucking live in Miami (apparently), this lack of knowledge about Miami's roster is borderline inexcusable.

You're also downplaying the defensive and rebounding part of the game, where a center's contribution oftentimes is more important than his contribution at the offensive end. So congratulations on that FAIL argument.

The Heat have the best PF (single player) in the discussion. After that they don't have anything, because the Heat have no depth at the backup big positions.

Funny you make that comment, considering that you yet again fail to acknowledge that Wade gets little to no help from his 'big' men. He can't make up for the loss of that, I don't care what you say. Get the fuck with it, stop dodging shit.

I mean, really? Do you not understand that Amare's injury occured before the fucking pundits made their picks? No one said they have less talent, they said that given the major injuries they have, they'll be lucky to be in the race when Stoudemire is ready to return, and hopefully they can contend for a favorable playoff matchup once that happens. That's all. Simple, ain't it?

More point dodging.

What season is this?

Proof that you not only don't understand my position, you never did.

Can you read?

To the Kobe ballwashers, no I bet that isn't impressive. Good thing you guys have proven many times to be biased to the point of insanity.

It doesn't fucking matter that Nash did it with a specific type of team, that was his fucking strength. Get it? Players playing to their strengths is no reason for them to penalized.

Irrelevant strawman. Mihm provided decent production when he was on the floor. If you honestly think that Glen Davis or Brandon Bass would make better starting centers than him, you don't know basketball one bit.

Except that they were less productive than Odom. U LOOZ DOOD

Tying it to Kobe again. Go ahead, set up your strawmen.

YOU ARE REFUSING TO SPECULATE. I challenge you to speculate how LeBron would have fared in Wade's position, and then you fall back on the 'BUTT IT DOZNT MATTUR BECUHZ IT WOODINT HAPPIN' routine, knowing full well that you can't win that argument, and then going the extra mile and faulting Wade for the injury, which anyone with a brain would know is complete junk. Fortunately, I'm smart enough to recognize and call your bullshit.

Wade and the Cavs is another one of your pathetic strawman arguments that I won't even bother with, since its completely irrelevant.

IT WAS THE SAME FUCKING INJURY!! HOW ARE YOU NOT ABLE TO GRASP THIS??!?!

Because you hold the fact that Miami's 07-08 was so bad against Wade, I challenge you to put LeBron in that same position and try to judge how he'd fare. And you back out every time.

Nice dodge.

I haven't ignored that fucking argument once, every fucking time you shit that question onto the thread I tell you, pretty clearly, 'Wade's big men cannot defend and cannot rebound'. A lack of interior defense and rebounding kills you, no matter what your perimeter game looks like. Wade can't do a thing about that. Do you expect Wade to guard Kevin Garnett? Dwight Howard? Al Horford? It is you who fails to understand that.

I practically invite you to speculate. You just don't.

I'm not changing any criteria, you just like to tell yourself that I am by taking isolated statement I make about different players/topics, then switching them around and telling me I'm a hypocrite. All my reasons for Nash and Wade being legit MVPs and Kobe (in 06) not being one line up perfectly. Not only is you twisting my words cowardly, its also really annoying.

Haven't we gone over that the voters lost sight of the true MVP and started just giving to the best player, as a lazy cop-out? Now they have to stick to their own precedent every year to avoid contradicting themselves and making past selections look like frauds.

And you fault him for that. Fucking incredible.

The Clippers had the fifth best record in that scary Western conference, and disposed of the Nuggets quite easily. And now you want to downplay their worthiness as an opponent, because it works against you. Let me guess, you're going to make the 'FLOOK SEESUN' argument next.

I'll reroute you to my statement about precedents.

Either you're too thickheaded to understand, or just simply don't want to understand. You're basically covering your ears and going 'lalalalalala' every time I call your bullshit.

Yes, citing the return of Phil Jackson and a motivated Kobe as the main reasons.

 

Amazing how the Spurs are staying up to snuff and actually doing better than I thought they would.


Learn the art of fact-checking.

 

Your simple brain is making progress.

Jordan is a clear example of the 'best player on best team, whoop he automatically wins award' reasoning.

Brainiac, what you quoted was in response to you saying 'I TINK TEH BEZT PLEYIR SHOOD WYN MVP'. Nice one.

Jackson would have gotten more than 25 wins out of them, he is a good enough coach to do so. One would think you would know at least that.

If anything, Phoenix would be in the 25 win range.

Chris Mihm Kwame Brown Andrew Bynum what

Wade is a distributor. Do you know what a distributor is? Wade is also the best defender in the league. He helps his teammates defense (on the perimeter) by taking care of the other team's best guard. On the offensive end, Wade is the second best slasher in the game, which creates rifts in the defense that in turn enable to Wade to find the open man. He's not a hog, and while he has added the three pointer to his game, he's still predominantly a slasher.

Kobe can't do either as well as Wade.

How hilarious that you bitched about the Lakers having no swingmen, then promptly saying that you would rather have the Suns' remaining scraps.

Diaw is an undersized power forward with no skills that make him a traditional PF. He's a decent rebounder, not good but not bad. He's a small-ball 4. Again, learn the art of fact checking.

Kurt Thomas played center because nobody else could. Everywhere else, he's been a power forward.

Already explained it.

 

So Karl Malone should have won MVP. Its that simple.

 

You did use Kobe's 81 point game as a way to try and supplement your argument. I don't care what you backed it up with, it's an asinine notion to award MVPs based on one game.

If you act like a retard, I'll treat you like a retard. Same as everyone.

I said Smush would make a decent bench player had he not got a swelled head about his play in LA.

Maybe Wade kept Walker afloat? Geez, that was hard.

And without Wade, he can't get as many open looks and isn't as free to play his game. Thanks for making my point for me.

Wow, that completely goes in line with your previous statements.

Good try. Maybe you don't understand that what huevon originally bought up was how much Mihm was missed in the playoffs, but the team ultimately got better production from his replacement. It doesn't matter what Mihm would have done, that wasn't really the point.

Fixed.

Way to acknowledge that Kwame was being defended by small forwards.

 

Fact-checking? Fact-checking is, the Spurs are 1-2 against us this year, with 1 win as a result of Fisher's BS foul. Fact-checking is, you stating the Spurs will defeat the Lakers this year, and that they are a better team.

But hey, I guess they're gonna step up in the postseason right? Like they did last year.

 

I said they would beat the Lakers in the postseason, and I'm sticking to that. I also said they would be the 4 seed, and they've surpassed that.

 

Your point? I never said the best player on the best team should win the MVP.

Yes of course. Kobe was the best player in 05-06, thus I think he should have been the MVP.

pg: Smush Parker (out of the league)
sg: Sasha Vujacic (skinny scrub who can't play D, or shoot)
sf: Luke Walton (LMAO)
pf: Lamar Odom (3rd-4th option at best)
c: Kwame Brown (super bust, no skilled basketball player)

No coach would be able to get more than 25 wins out of this team. I don't care how great of a coach Phil was, he never won a championship without at least two HOF superstars.

If Phoenix is in the 25 win range, then the Lakers would be much lower. Not higher.

Might wanna check your facts since Mihm was out pretty much the whole season.

Bynum? A 17 year old rookie? Don't make me laugh. He wasn't even activated for a lot the games, let alone being counted on to contribute.

Your point? Wade > Kobe? So what's your definition of the MVP now? The best player in the league?

"Wade is also the best defender in the league."

Don't make me laugh. Guess you didn't see Kobe check Wade the last time the two met. I guess you didn't hear Team USA saying how great of a defender Kobe was. What about Wade? I'm sure if he was such a great defender, he would've received some compliments defensively, yet there was none. Wade's a better slasher? Good for him. Kobe is a better scorer. He's not a hog? Since when have I called him a hog? Never, so don't put words in my mouth.

Who? Raja Bell? I'd take Bell over Sasha any day of the week. Q-Rich? I'd take Q-Rich over Walton, George, or whatever other crap the Lakers had on the roster.

Small ball 4? Really? Then what is he? A small forward?

Funny because I also see him starting at the 4 for the Bobcats, while putting up 13 ppg, 5 boards, and 4 assists. Which makes him a valuable piece to their roster.

And Ronny Turiaf played center for us as well. Everywhere else he'd be a power forward.

Your point? It doesn't matter. I'd much rather have Kurt Thomas as my center, even if he is a couple of inches shorter, than the super bust Kwame Brown.

You didn't explain anything. The Lakers team, without Kobe, is a much worse team than the Suns without Nash and Amare.

Let's see...

Kwame-Lamar-Luke-Sasha-Smush

Thomas-Diaw-Marion-Bell-Barbosa



Hm, I wonder which lineup is better? Doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

 

Even though all signs point otherwise?

Logical.

Yep, they're gonna beat us in the postseason, like they were supposed to last year.

 

lol



WEL SO FAHR IT DOZINT LOOCK LOJIKIL. Its not the postseason yet, genius.

 

That's what they said last year.

And post #57, which I reposted. Read it and respond.

 

I already responded to it.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Haha Wade is the best defender in the league?! Not exactly guy, check out the type of production he gives up to his opponents. Such a complete player yet on pace to win 44?

God you are basing all that off of SPG and BPG? Lol.

 

Re: Wade new #2

It is seriously pointless even talking to you if all you do is cherry-pick and ignore every valid point that I make, while at the same time setting up billions of strawmen by taking every isolated statement I say and placing it in different context.

Wade is the best defender in the league. Who were you going to say (as if I have to guess)? Why the fuck do you keep saying 'WADE IZ 0NLEE G0NNA WYN 44 GAYMZ'? I ALREADY FUCKING EXPLAINED THAT, WADE CANNOT MAKE UP FOR THE REBOUNDING AND DEFENSIVE DEFICIENCIES OF HIS BIG MEN, AND ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD EXPECT HIM TO DO SO. What don't you fucking understand? What is there not to get?

 

81 points is the second highest individual scoring output since Wilt. So of course I mentioned. If Wade or Lebron score 82, it should be mentioned as well. Obviously that doesn't guarantee an MVP award, which is it was only part of my post.

Really? Because besides LA, he never made it anywhere in the NBA. When he got a chance after his Miami failure, he sucked it up with the Clippers as well.

Really? 30 year old Antoine Walker would all of a sudden decline overnight after putting up 16 and 8 with the Celtics last year?

Kept him afloat? I can say the same for Kobe. Kobe obviously helped keep Smush afloat. Same with Cook, George, and Kwame. Look at where these guys are now, without Kobe.

Still have yet to give me one person Wade made that much better.

And without Kobe, Smush can't get as many open looks and isn't free to play his game.

And without Kobe, Cook can't get as many open looks and isn't free to play his game.

And without Kobe, Kwame can't get as many open looks and isn't free to play his game.

And without Kobe, George can't get as many open looks and isn't free to play his game.

Thanks for playing.

Your point? You said Cook wasn't a bad seed his entire career, that maybe it just developed that one season with the Lakers, so they traded him. And that was false, which I noted.

You said Mihm wasn't missed at all. That's obviously false, because had he played under that circumstance, he'd do much better than Kwame, and would've given us a much better chance of winning. If a player with no offensive skills can carve up the Suns front court, then someone with skill can do a lot more damage.

Your point?

Your point?

He averaged 28 mpg in 05-06, I guess every single game he played was when he was being defended by small forwards, right?

Obviously not.