Ric Bucher Likes OKC Over Blazers In A Few Years

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by ABM, Apr 3, 2009.

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  1. Minstrel

    Minstrel Top Of The Pops Global Moderator

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    Hello darkness, my old friend
    I think it's the other way around. Blazers fans are challenging Ed for "daring" to think Roy isn't top-ten.

    As I said, I think Roy is top-ten. But I don't think the mockery of Ed's position is merited.

    It matters for some things, but not for others. For example, if I wanted some Tillamook cheddar, it would matter. Wait...I can get that in the supermarket here. Nope, doesn't matter.
     
    Minstrel, Apr 4, 2009
    #261
  2. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    What? You think I am full of s**t for correctly predicting that Hollinger was wrong and that Roy is a Top 10 player right now?
     
    PapaG, Apr 4, 2009
    #262
  3. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

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    Ah, the "upside" argument. All prospects have it, but few realize it.

    What guarantee is there that Durant will continue to improve? You are ready to right off Roy's season this year as a fluke that he won't likely repeat, yet you assume Durant will continue to improve.

    Remember, right now Durant is putting up his numbers on a crappy team, but Roy is doing it on a team with many other scoring options that's on course to exceed 50 wins.

    What's to say Durant's scoring (which is really the only thing he does exceptionally well) won't decrease if he ever gets some more talented teammates that he'll have to share the ball with? It's a lot easier to put up big scoring numbers when you play on a team with few other above average scorers. Until Durant puts up better numbers (and not JUST scoring numbers, PER, ORtg, Win Shares, etc.) than Roy AND does it while leading his team to 50+ wins, I'm not willing to concede, or even consider Durant a "more likely" superstar than Roy.

    BNM
     
    Boob-No-More, Apr 4, 2009
    #263
  4. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Even ignoring your bias as a Blazers fan, you trade based on net present value. You don't trade based on who the best player is.

    They're two different things.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Apr 4, 2009
    #264
  5. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Yeah. That's his weird hold over you, isn't it? We don't have the power here.
     
    PapaG, Apr 4, 2009
    #265
  6. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I don't know why you're misreading my argument so badly.

    There is NO guarantee that Durant will continue to improve. I make NO assumptions that he will continue to improve.

    I am NOT writing Roy's season off as a fluke.

    It's amazing how many ways you can misinterpret what I'm saying.

    Durant is putting up a better PER--by about two points--than any Roy had put up until this year, and Durant is still two years younger than Roy was before he put on a Blazers' jersey.

    Might he backslide? Absolutely. Might he have maxed out his production and potential at his current age? Sure, I guess. I don't find these likely in the long term, though, any more than I felt it was likely after, say, Roy's rookie season.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Apr 4, 2009
    #266
  7. Minstrel

    Minstrel Top Of The Pops Global Moderator

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    Hello darkness, my old friend
    What is his weird hold over me? Not immediately clear to me from your post.

    Sure you do. The power in any debate is logic. You have just as much ability to utilize logic as anyone else.
     
    Minstrel, Apr 4, 2009
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  8. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Blah blah blah crap crap crap. Continue to ignore my PM, Ed. You are wrong on this one.
     
    PapaG, Apr 4, 2009
    #268
  9. BengalDuck

    BengalDuck Well-Known Member

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    So, to recap, as I'm about to leave this discussion...

    1. Roy is not a top 10 player, even though he's played like one for the entire season.
    2. Durant is not a top 10 player, and has never played like one.
    3. Durant is closer to being a top 10 player than Roy, even though by Ed O's own admission he's not.
     
    BengalDuck, Apr 4, 2009
    #269
  10. mgb

    mgb Over-Nite Sensation

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    I didn't say the reason you are, if you are it doesn't really matter why. Just in general, but then again I should have said 'not that I necessary disagree'.
     
    mgb, Apr 4, 2009
    #270
  11. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

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    Well, it means everything to me. The point of playing the games is to win.

    So, then doesn't Durant deserve some of the "blame" for his team's LACK of improvement?

    Roy is the clear leader and best player on a team that has gotten substantially better each of his three years in the league. And yes, his improved play is a major reason for the team's improvement. The way he plays lends itself to "making his teammates better". Durant's doesn't (at least not yet).

    BNM
     
    Boob-No-More, Apr 4, 2009
    #271
  12. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

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    You said Durnat wasn't currently a superstar. Therefore, he must continue to improve to become a superstar. You said he was more likely to become a superstar than Brandon Roy Therefore, you have made the assumption that he will continue to improve at a greater rate than Roy.

    BNM
     
    Boob-No-More, Apr 4, 2009
    #272
  13. mgb

    mgb Over-Nite Sensation

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    Might it be because he's on a bad team? Yes. Then again he might turn out to be a better player than Roy.
     
    mgb, Apr 4, 2009
    #273
  14. mgb

    mgb Over-Nite Sensation

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    I think a big part is that Roy tries to get his team mates involved more. He doesn't care about stats. He has to be told to be more aggressive because he isn't selfish. On a bad team I think he'd put up much better numbers.
     
    mgb, Apr 4, 2009
    #274
  15. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The point for the TEAM, sure.

    When looking at individual capabilities, wins don't have much value in my eyes.


    What lack of improvement are you talking about?

    Durant's team has improved markedly this year... they have already won more games this year than they had all of last year.

    A massive reason for the Sonics/Thunder backslide during Durant's rookie year was because the team had shed the previous year's two best players in Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis.

    In any case, since I don't place too much credit or blame on a team's performance on a single player, I am not too concerned about attributing blame for the uber-young Durant's improvement of his team in his first couple of seasons.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Apr 4, 2009
    #275
  16. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    It is absolutely, positively true that Durant's numbers could be being blown out of proportion because his team is terrible, or it could be that his numbers are worse because defenses can focus on him.

    It's very difficult to say with such a short track record.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Apr 4, 2009
    #276
  17. rocketeer

    rocketeer Active Member

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    ed o,

    if you don't expect roy to be worse than he is now and you do expect him to continue to put up top 10 production, at what point does that top 10 production turn him into a top 10 player?
     
    rocketeer, Apr 4, 2009
    #277
  18. BengalDuck

    BengalDuck Well-Known Member

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    3 years.
     
    BengalDuck, Apr 4, 2009
    #278
  19. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I don't have a specific time frame. It's squishy.

    If he did top-10 production another two years? It would be hard to argue he didn't deserve it by my definitions.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Apr 4, 2009
    #279
  20. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Why you no hire big man coach?

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    Improved markedly???? Since when is improving from 21 wins to 24 or 25 showing marked improvement. When you're that bad, improving by 3 or 4 wins isn't exactly all that hard to do.

    And didn't you also claim the Blazers would not improve after they "gave away" their "best player" prior to Roy's 2nd season? Yet, they won 41 games, nine more than the previous year, in spite of giving away their best player and neither of their first round picks playing a single minute that season.

    In exchange for Ray Allen, the Sonics got a top 5 draft pick, to go along with Durant at number 2 - and they added a top 4 pick this season. So, they added Durant, the future superstar, and two more top five picks, yet they will still finish with 5 or 6 FEWER wins this season than the season before Durant's rookie year.

    BNM
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
    Boob-No-More, Apr 4, 2009
    #280
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