Yeah, they both sucked. Who cares if the pistons won 30 more games over a ten year span? The pistons couldn't win a playoff series and couldn't keep their best player.
394 wins in the first 10 years following the Pistons 2peat. 6 playoff appearances, 1 time in the finals. 292 wins in the first 10 years following the breakup of the Bulls dynasty. 3 playoff appearances, 1 time in the 2nd round. 394 - 292 = 30. New math?
Maybe you ought to count again Denny. You're embarrassing yourself. Exactly how many times did the Pistons go to the finals from 91-92 until 00-01 (which is ten seasons). How many times did they make the playoffs? How many series did they win?
232 wins for Detroit in the first 6 years after their last championship, 1 loss ECF, 3 playoff appearances. 50, 48, and 46 win seasons. 119 wins for the Bulls in the first 6 years after breaking up the dynasty. 30 wins, best season.
EC FINALS 1990-91 Lost 1st round in 91-92, 95-96,96-97, 98-99, 99-00. 6 times made the playoffs, as I said. They won two series. 394 - 292 = 30. New math?
We're not factoring in the championship and 6 straight ECF (or better) appearances that the Bulls haven't matched.
Or the three championships that the pistons still need to get to match the bulls. Or if you want to go back to 66-67, the two more times the bulls have made the playoffs than the pistons. Go right ahead and cherry pick whatever comparison makes you feel good.
We're talking about rebuilding from a championship and how you wrongly think it was great of Krause to break up a team that just won its 6th championship. Detroit won back to back championships, then successfully rebuilt their team and won another and made 6 straight ECF (or better) appearances along with 7 other playoff appearances. They had a team with Thomas, Rodman, Laimbeer, etc. that won, and built a new team with Billups and Sheed and Ben Wallace and won again. The Bulls strategy, the outright breakup of a championship team, led to 6 straight seasons of futility. 30 wins the best it could do in those years. It's 11 years since the breakup and we've won one post season series in 3 playoff appearances. We went to the playoffs 3 times behind a Hinrich/Duhon/Noc/Deng core, missed the playoffs for two years with that core since. We're now in the playoffs again with a Rose/Gordon/Salmons/Miller core. Your own cheatsheet is clear enough record. 13 playoffs (1 ring, 7 ECF appearances) in 19 years for the team that didn't blow up its championship team vs. 3 playoffs in 10 seasons for the one that did. There is no cherry picking involved, it's the complete record of both teams' rebuilding stories.
You're the oddest person I've ever come across on the internet. First, the 90-91 team that went to the ECF's wasn't part of any rebuilding plan, so it's moronic to count that trip to the playoffs. The rebuilding started after the next year, produced mediocre results, and that team was scrapped for the Billups led team with Prince, Rip and Sheed, who didn't show up until halfway through their first ECF season. And the one postseason series the bulls won was more than the pistons won in their first 10 years of rebuilding. And how do you leave BG out of that first core? He started in the playoffs for those teams... He was also one of the main reasons they failed to reach the playoffs last year, but I don't want to start that argument again. And Miller isn't going to be around long enough to be considered a part of any core. His excellent play has been a huge bonus, but he was acquired to be an expiring contract next year. And my first point was more about being glad that I didn't have to watch the bulls disintegrate. Of course I would have rather that Krause keep the team together and win a few more. I was pointing out the silver lining of that disaster. It's a subtle point, undoubtedly why you didn't get it.
The Pistons didn't start rebuilding until the Chauncey Billups trade. They were a near 60 win team last year, trying to win the championship still. They just haven't been able to get over the hump into the Finals since 2005.
It was both insane and the height of arrogance to break up a championship team following a championship season. To this day, I cannot fathom how the owner (Reinsdorf) could agree with the plan. Krause had the ego to believe it wasn't Jordan and Pippen that won the championships, but rather it was his doing and that he could build another championship team. He pointed to the Celtics (not the Pistons) as what the Bulls would become. In hindsight, Boston lost two key players to cocaine related deaths and Larry Bird was plauged by a sore back that crippled his game and forced him to retire earlier than he would have - even at age 35. And they still rebuilt into a championship team before the Bulls have under Krause and now Paxson. In hindsight, teams like Detroit, San Antonio, and Utah (0 championships tho) have maintained playoff contending teams if not championship contending teams without tearing their teams apart. In hindsight, Pippen played 5 more seasons after being traded to Houston and Jordan was putting up 23/6/5 kind of numbers 5 seasons later as well. That's 5 more chances at playoffs and championships with those guys. In hindsight, Phill Jackson went on to coach 3 more championship teams with the Lakers and was back in the finals last season and it is a reasonable expectation he'll be there again this season. It absolutely is fair and right to consider Detroit's whole record. It's a contrast to the Bulls' plan of dumping the entire team and tanking for draft picks near the top of the draft. Detroit didn't uncerimoniously dump the stars of their team that won two championships while in the midst of a streak of winning championships. It's cherry picking to avoid looking at their complete record. And there's no hindsight but the Billups trade to gauge how quickly they'll rebuild again, but it isn't a dire situation with guys like Stuckey and Prince and Rip and Maxiel and the cap space that Iverson represents. Ben Gordon started 3 games for the 04-05 Bulls, 47 and 51 for the following two seasons. He started 27 games when the Bulls failed to make the playoffs last season. Contrast with 76 games started this year (and the 36 MPG vs ~30), leading the team in scoring, one of three players since MJ on the Bulls to score 20+/game, and a playoff appearance with Aaron Gray starting for a long stretch of the season and injuries to key players like Deng, Hinrich, and Gooden. The guy you'd have played in his place went on to Oklahoma City where he got all the minutes he could handle and put up 8.5 PPG on 43% shooting and a 12.5 PER. Or would it be the 13.9 PER Hinrich (who wasn't available to play for 31 games anyway)? Maybe the 30 year old 16 PER Salmons is a decent replacement for the 26 year old 17 PER Gordon next season, but it is still a downgrade. As much as I'd love to see the Bulls with someone better than Gordon (and there are a few guys better), I don't see us ending up with someone better. The key thing about the Gordon situation relates to Krause and the arrogance/ego thing. The guy was such an asshole to the top players in the game that played for him that no amount of cap space was enough for any player (TMac for one) to want to come here and play for him. Paxson has followed this same pattern with his treatment of players like Tim Thomas (first time around) and Curry and Crawford and even Ben Wallace that the Bulls continue to be a place that the TMacs use to get bigger contracts elsewhere but in reality wouldn't come here of their own free will. Of all the lotto picks we've had, none have been consistently as good as Gordon for us yet he's been the low man on the totem pole when it comes to getting PT (see previous seasons games started) or getting paid. If there's two lessons to be learned from the Bulls' mess, they are: 1) Treat your players well, talent wins championships 2) Continuity is the key to excellence in franchises. #2 is obvious, as we could have had PJax coaching a team with Artest, Miller, and Brand with only the one modest step of keeping PJax around for the continuity. Or keeping Artest, Miller, and Brand and letting Skiles coach that crew over the course of his tenure here might have produced championships.
Again, all I said was I was glad I didn't have to watch the Jordan-Pippen bulls lose. It wasn't a defense of Krause.
