<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Apr 23 2006, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm so sick of everyone using statistics to judge if Player A is better than Player B.</div>When judging effeciency you use stats. Those stats clrealy show kobe is more effecient.Nitro just cannot admit he's wrong.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch_Melo_061 @ Apr 22 2006, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Do you not comprehend simple english? Read the link i gave you.Hollingers job is to write about the nba. I'd rather take someone who dedicates he time to study the nba than a poster on some basketabll site. If you don't believe kobe is more effecient and i reiterate , you're a huge kobe hater.</div>I personally happen to think that some of these people in some of these message boards are smarter than alot of those writers. That is his job to right about the NBA, but i don't see him or many of those other writers that didn't play in the NBA as being any smarter than the other basketball fans. He does the same things as us, probably played through high school, maybe a little community college or division 3 college, couldn't make it in the NBA, and is now a fan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 22 2006, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Duncan has always been a better defender than Shaq. He is the second best defensive big man next to Ben Wallace. Bowen not athletic enough? You saw his defense on Dirk? He is all over the place and even if Wade gets by Bowen Duncan will make it hard for Wade to score on. Duncan would force the Heat to double and he kicks it out to the open player. Billups' defense was superb on Parker last year as well. Damon Jones couldn't do that. Rasheed has always done well against Duncan. I could almost say own so I wasn't surprised the Pistons gave spurs problems. The Heats series against the Pistons has nothing to do with the Heats series with the Spurs. The Pistons season and playoff run was a lot harder than the Spurs even though the Spurs were in the tougher conference. The Pistons barely got passed the Pacers. The Pistons finally started playing well in the finals but not well enough to beat the Spurs.</div>Umm no he hasn't. And I think Kiraleinko and KG would have something to say about Duncan being a better defender. And if Duncan is such a good defender, then why did Shaq get 24/21, 27/10, 21/16, 29/17, 20/12, and 31/10 in the series the Laker lost to the Spurs few years back, where Shaq outperformed Duncan in every game outside of 1 game (which was Game 6, where Shaq didn't play at end of game due to it being a blowout). No one can guard Parker one on one, not even Billuips. Pistons did a great job on Parker same reason that heat would; they let him go into paint and then pumbled him with good frontline D (and Heat's Shaq/Zo/Haslem is as scary as Piston's Ben/Sheed/Mcdyess). OF COURSE Pistons gave Spurs problems, they are alike in every aspect. Ginobli is a lot like Hamilton in fact that they always run around, Parker is like Billuips in they both are good PG's and penetrate at will, Tayshaun and Bowen both are great defenders and feed off of other players, Duncan is like Shee din that both got some range and both great defenders, Ben Wallace was an x-factor, mcdyes and Horry were similar off the bench, etc.... I would say the 1st 2 rounds of playoffs for Pistons (Sixers and Pacers) was a lot easier than Spurs playing Nugs (who were on FIRE in 2nd half of season) and Seattle (50+ win team). Then, Spurs had to play #1 team record wise in league, and hardest team to defend. Pistons road was easier than Spurs. Heat would have beaten Pistons, and since Pistons and Spurs are so alike in so many ways, it would have been a very tight Finals.
Nitro, do you honestly believe anyone can guard Shaq? Especially shaq of 2003? Who was huingry for a 4 peat?Duncan>KG Duncan> AKI'm talking about defense. I'm talking about healthy duncan.
This efficency rating thing is <Censored> anyways. That's just what people that don't really understand, but want everyone to think they do says. It doesn't take into account how their teamates around them play because of them. It doesn't take into account how much the players hold the ball. Steve Nash and Jason Kidd are not in the top five on that list, so does that mean that everyone else is a better passer than them? No, but because Nash and Kid pass the ball more than those others, there is more of a chance for them turning the ball over, so their efficency rating is going to be higher.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Apr 23 2006, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This efficency rating thing is <Censored> anyways. That's just what people that don't really understand, but want everyone to think they do says. It doesn't take into account how their teamates around them play because of them. It doesn't take into account how much the players hold the ball. Steve Nash and Jason Kidd are not in the top five on that list, so does that mean that everyone else is a better passer than them? No, but because Nash and Kid pass the ball more than those others, there is more of a chance for them turning the ball over, so his efficency rating is going to be higher.</div>FG% Field-goal PercentageFT% Free-throw PercentageORR Offensive Rebound RateDRR Defensive Rebound RateTS% True Shooting Percentage calculates what a player?s shooting percentage would be if we accounted for free throws and 3-pointers. True Shooting Percentage = (Total points x 50) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44)]Ast Assist Ratio is the percentage of a player?s possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers] Reb Rebound Rate is the percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds. Rebound Rate = (Rebounds x Team Minutes) divided by [Player Minutes x (Team Rebounds + Opponent Rebounds)]PER Player Efficiency Rating is my overall rating of a player?s per-minute statistical production. The league average is 15.00 every season.TO Turnover Ratio is the percentage of a player?s possessions that end in a turnover. Turnover Ratio = (Turnover x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]Usg Usage Rate is the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)That is what Hollinger came to his conclusion from. Wade's 3 point shooting, freethrow shooting and turnovers make him less effecient.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch_Melo_061 @ Apr 22 2006, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nitro, do you honestly believe anyone can guard Shaq? Especially shaq of 2003? Who was huingry for a 4 peat?Duncan>KG Duncan> AKI'm talking about defense. I'm talking about healthy duncan.</div>And Duncan wasn't healthy last year, as wasn't Shaq. Thats why I cancel them out if Heat played Spurs last year in playoffs.AS for Hollinger's ratings, I feel the 3 main stats are: TS % (true shooting, counts FG %, 3pt %, and FT %), AST % and REB %, and Wade owns Kobe in each one. FT % and TO's are a BS stat, as TO's depends on what position you play at, and FT % shouldn't be counted and in that calculator and should just be considered TS %. And once again, when Kobe was main playmaker, he failed and his efficiency was sh*t (shot career low FG % too).
I know those things do not take what postion you play into account but it takes alot of other things into count which nba.com doesn't.Kobe also has the ball in his hand more than wade [hence his usage tate being higher].These stats also take into account the team's pace.Nitro, i know those effeciency stats look funny and all [dirk at one], but if you closely inspect the numbers, Kobe is more effecient.
Once again, it is a lot opinion on waht you consider to be efficient. NBA.com takes every stat into consideration, and this is more scientific with more detailed stats and most important stats. Bottom line it is actually what your opinion is. Hell, you could even throw MPG, PPG, TS %, RPG, APG, TO's per game, Clutchness, and their Position and get a pretty darn good efficiency rating. It is very much opinion on what you think is efficient, offensively, defensively, etc....I still think, just by looking at a game of his, Wade is more efficient scorer, better passer, and thats about it. Each other category Kobe has on him, although many of them it is by a small margin. Kobe is the better player, but Wade is DAMN good and very underrated.
I already finished this thread ages ago. Mavsfan tried to argue that wade was a better defender. Now see nitro, did i not tell you kobe haters do exist? I remember you said they don't.
Never said they don't. I even made a topic that showed why most people hate him and Bron. I do feel mavsfan seriously doesn't watch games that Kobe plays or doesn't look at the stats, as Kobe is much better than he makes him out to be. he hasn't hated on Kobe, but really underrating him.
Saying Dirk nowitzki is a better passer than kobe is borderline homerism. He's said so many things, many of which i can't remember which leads me to believe that he hates kobe. He's actually admitted he hates kobe.edit: How can you hate lebron? It's not possible.
Lots of people hate Bron. Hate he's compared to MJ. hate he was so hyped at 18. Hate his swagger. Hate that his jumpshot still hasn't come into form. But, he is one of the more beloved superstars.As for mavsfan, he says Dirk is the best passing big man in the league. He is just a Mavs homer, not Kobe hater.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Apr 23 2006, 03:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Never said they don't. I even made a topic that showed why most people hate him and Bron. I do feel mavsfan seriously doesn't watch games that Kobe plays or doesn't look at the stats, as Kobe is much better than he makes him out to be. he hasn't hated on Kobe, but really underrating him.</div>I watch many Kobe games. He can hurt your team just as much as he can help your team. In 03-04 Kobe was on fire against the Spurs and pulled the upset against them because of his shooting and the same year against the Pistons he played the same way and couldn't hit those shots and lost the series against them. In 02-03 Kobe struggled mightily against Bowen offensively and defensively. One game Bowen outscored Kobe. 27-24 I believe. So it is hard comparing Kobe to other players because he is either hot or cold and when cold can really hurt the team because he doesn't fill up the stats in other categories and doesn't pass a lot.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 23 2006, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I watch many Kobe games. He can hurt your team just as much as he can help your team. In 03-04 Kobe was on fire against the Spurs and pulled the upset against them because and the same year against the Pistons he played the same way and couldn't hit those shots and lost the series against them. In 02-03 Kobe struggled mightily against Bowen offensively and defensively. One game Bowen outscored Kobe. 27-24 I believe. So it is hard comparing Kobe to other players because he is either hot or cold and when cold can really hurt the team because he doesn't fill up the stats in other categories and doesn't pass a lot.</div>Kobe did fill up the box score in the 3 peat, he used to score 25+ 5+ rebounds and 5+ assits. In 2003 he put up 30-6-5-2 steals. He also iniated the offense for a 3 time championship team. Kobe only goes into solo vortex mode when everyone on the team is bricking [look at the suns game where kobe drops 51]. Everyone around kobe could not make shot.edit: When kobe's cold he plays defense Something Dirk nowtizki knows nothing about. You do remember when Tmac was absolutelt tearing us apart and then we switched kobe onto him? Tmac disappeared.edit: He is a kobe hater, he's admitted himself. What more do you want?Kobe's inconsitent on defense but he is better than dirk/wade
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Apr 23 2006, 03:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Umm no he hasn't. And I think Kiraleinko and KG would have something to say about Duncan being a better defender. And if Duncan is such a good defender, then why did Shaq get 24/21, 27/10, 21/16, 29/17, 20/12, and 31/10 in the series the Laker lost to the Spurs few years back, where Shaq outperformed Duncan in every game outside of 1 game (which was Game 6, where Shaq didn't play at end of game due to it being a blowout). No one can guard Parker one on one, not even Billuips. Pistons did a great job on Parker same reason that heat would; they let him go into paint and then pumbled him with good frontline D (and Heat's Shaq/Zo/Haslem is as scary as Piston's Ben/Sheed/Mcdyess). OF COURSE Pistons gave Spurs problems, they are alike in every aspect. Ginobli is a lot like Hamilton in fact that they always run around, Parker is like Billuips in they both are good PG's and penetrate at will, Tayshaun and Bowen both are great defenders and feed off of other players, Duncan is like Shee din that both got some range and both great defenders, Ben Wallace was an x-factor, mcdyes and Horry were similar off the bench, etc.... I would say the 1st 2 rounds of playoffs for Pistons (Sixers and Pacers) was a lot easier than Spurs playing Nugs (who were on FIRE in 2nd half of season) and Seattle (50+ win team). Then, Spurs had to play #1 team record wise in league, and hardest team to defend. Pistons road was easier than Spurs. Heat would have beaten Pistons, and since Pistons and Spurs are so alike in so many ways, it would have been a very tight Finals.</div>Malone was guarding Duncan and not Shaq. Haslem is not even close to the strength of Malone and won't get the favorable calls from the refs like Malone did against Duncan. Shaq was also a much better player back than with the Lakers. The Spurs have a more athletic back court than the Pistons. Parker and Ginobili would be a matchup nightmare for the Heat. Especially Parker. Rasheed is not as good of a post up player as Duncan so the comparisons are not as similar offensively as you made it out. Wade was a matchup problem for the Pistons because they had no one that could body up Wade and play physical though they made up for it partially by their front court.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 23 2006, 12:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Malone was guarding Duncan and not Shaq. Haslem is not even close to the strength of Malone and won't get the favorable calls from the refs like Malone did against Duncan. Shaq was also a much better player back than with the Lakers. The Spurs have a more athletic back court than the Pistons. Parker and Ginobili would be a matchup nightmare for the Heat. Especially Parker. Rasheed is not as good of a post up player as Duncan so the comparisons are not as similar offensively as you made it out. Wade was a matchup problem for the Pistons because they had no one that could body up Wade and play physical though they made up for it partially by their front court.</div>Malone wasn't on Lakers in 2003. And if you want to talk about 2004, Shaq was only 1 year younger than he was on heat. And his FG % was 2-3% higher on Heat.Are you kidding me. Rip is one of most ahtletic players in league and has the most stamina in the league. Chauncey Billups is very ahtletic as well. No Sheed isn't as good offensively as Duncan, but they are similar in ways (both can stretch out D, both can post up, both play great D). Wade was a problem because no one can guard Wade. No one on Spurs could either. Tayshaun is a better matchup than Bowen, as Bowen just isn't ahtletic or quick enough to guard Wade.
Bowen is much more physical than Tayshaun Prince. Wade is a slasher so the bulk from Bowen helps against that type of player. Prince got away with guarding Kobe because Kobe settled for jumpers and Prince was able to use his wingspan to guard Kobe. Against Wade he couldn't since Wade got Prince off balance a lot with his speed. Hamilton actually guards Wade better than Prince. Bowen has better balance and he is stronger than Prince and is well suited to slow down Wade.
Bowen's bulk would do nothing as Wade isn't a postup player. Wade would run right around Bowen. And Rip couldn't guard wade either, not too athletic and not string enough. I actually think Billups would do best job against Wade, he is more athletic and bulkier than Rip, and with his size Prince could be more of a help defender.
