Mavsfan, don't try to twist my words. Dirk has proven more might i add. I was saying lebron was more valuable.Let's break them down Lebron james is more efficient on offense and overall is better on offense. He's the better passer and he's rebounding is good also.Advtange lebronOn defense they both suck so that's what a wash. Leadership Dirk has proven more but Lebron is leading a bunch of losers into the 4th seed. Dirk is leading the mavs to a 4th seed. I'd say lebron has been more valuable this season.Advantage- No-oneIn the clutch, i have to give it to Dirk. Lebron likes to choke and pass it to teamates who don't know how to shoot or has been out for a while. He's decision making in the clutch is cloudy because he doesn't want to take the blame for missing the shots. Advtange dirk.You take you're pick. I take lebron.
Why compare playing that dont play the same postiton. Its kinda hard because they dont do the same thing.
It is an interesting discussion. Who is more valuable and the better player? I still disagree with you on Dirk's defense. I don't watch Lebron enough but with the stats you showed me he is for real. The only complaints about him I've heard is him not taking over games in the 4th quarter and his defense.
Bron. Better scorer, better passer, can take over games more so than Dirk can, is much more versatile, and a harder matchup to guard.
Lebron is a harder matchup than Dirk? LMFAO.C'mon, they are hard to compare cause they player completely different positions, and have different responsibilities.Scoring wise, they are equal, Lebron has a better PPG cause he has noone on his team to help like Dirk does...plus Dirk has been sitting down late in games when the Cavs have to keep Lebron in to finish out.Defense...Dirk is vastly improved, but alot of people still live off the old stereo types and say he isn't, oh well. Lebron is at the same level as Dirk is...so that is a wash.Leadership, you might give to Bron, Dirk's has been questioned.Clutch play, Dirk, he'll take, and make in most cases that last shot...Bron hasn't proved that yet.They are really about as even as you can get.But you can't compare them...I mean it's not like comparing a SG/PG or SF/PF...it's comparing a Guard and foward...to way different positions.
Honestly I would take either, like Marvin said it's a wash.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Better scorer, better passer, can take over games more so than Dirk can, is much more versatile, and a harder matchup to guard.</div>All the things you said can be said for Dirk, Dirk at 7 feet for a big is a matchup nightmare for a lot for teams, they don't know if they want to put a small or big on him. Because he can take a big off the dribble and take a small downlow. Also, a 7 footer who has range is pretty versatile. And better scorer, Dirk has a wide range of moves from downlow to 3pt. He also shoots a better percentage then Bron who just now is extending his range. Not taking away from Bron's offensive games, but I don't see him scoring in a variety of ways. He is the better passer though with his court vision. Both players defense leaves a lot to be desired.The only thing I don't agree with is Bron can take over games. Isn't that the knock on him right now that he doesn't take over games in the waning minutes?
Dirk may be the better shooter then Lebron but if Lebron's shot isn't going he can use his size and quickness to get inside for an easy 2. He is the better scorer here, better passer. Dirk is the better rebounder but that is bc he is 7"0. Both aren't good defenders here. But I'd go with Lebron, he is a triple double machine.
Lebron's decision making in the clutch is stupid, He gives it to some guy who hasn't played in like ages to win the game. I question his mentality, is he scared to shoot?
What do you mean by if Dirk's shot isn't going? Dirk is a better shooting than you think, man. He has the bragging rights of calling himself the best shooter in the league until the 2007 All-Star Weekend.Plus, how is LeBron's team full of losers? Big Z is apparently an All-Star, and there are some really good offensive players on that team.LeBron is definitely one of the NBA's best, no doubt about it, but Dirk can shoot better from the field, from behind the ark, and from the charity stripe. The reason nobody thinks Dirk is all that is because he's not the kind of guy to start in a million ads or be on the Top 10 NBA Plays of the Night every night.LeBron is more of that guy.But who is the overall better offensive player?Obviously Dirk.Dirk is a NORMAL NBA player, not a super-celebrity. For somebody who is really a top five or top ten player in the league, he receives creidibility that makes him look like a top thirty NBA player.<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">AS FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S COMMENTS...</span>"On defense they both suck so that's what a wash. Leadership Dirk has proven more but Lebron is leading a bunch of losers into the 4th seed. Dirk is leading the mavs to a 4th seed. I'd say lebron has been more valuable this season."Alrite, man, look at it this way. The Defensive Tendex Ratings even show Dirk is a better defender. Dirk isn't a great one-on-one defender, and he admitted, but one time, the Mavs centers go in so much foul trouble against Ralph Zandolf that Avery just decided to put Dirk on him, and Dirk responded by limiting him to something like 5 points in the second half, most coming from the line. Dirk is also a nice pick-and-roll defender and a help defender. Dirk's body is also good for a defender. A quick, tall player definitely seems nice. Also the cool hair.If LeBron was more valuable than Dirk, he'd be more of an MVP candidate than Dirk." Lebron james is more efficient on offense and overall is better on offense. He's the better passer and he's rebounding is good also."Alrite, so you're putting a seven-foot jumpshooter known as a defensive nightmare worse than LeBron James? LeBron IS a better passer, but don't look at it by APG. Dirk makes passes that lead to assists. Mavericks as a team only average 17 APG, anyway..." Bron.Better scorer, better passer, can take over games more so than Dirk can, is much more versatile, and a harder matchup to guard."No, Dirk is harder to defend. He can shoot the outside jumper at 42%, draw a foul and shoot free throws at 90%, or shoot a regular jumpshot or use a post-up, and then have a 50-50 shot going for him.LeBron is a great driver and is slowly expanding his shot, but Dirk is just a better overall player.LeBron is the "super-star" offensive player who means everything to his team, and his team's offense is just good, nothing bad, nothing excellent, just between average and good.Besides that, Dirk has improved his defense the last year and this year, and his team has gone from the 3rd-worst defense to the 14th-best, and then the 7th best. I should also add that Josh Howard was here all of those years, so it doesn't have anything to do with him.The whole thing is just owned by Dirk.Dirk has a better record, better offensive game, better defensive game, better chance for a title.Screw James. Dirk could turn LeBron into Le Gone.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marvinmartian @ Apr 6 2006, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lebron is a harder matchup than Dirk? LMFAO.C'mon, they are hard to compare cause they player completely different positions, and have different responsibilities.Scoring wise, they are equal, Lebron has a better PPG cause he has noone on his team to help like Dirk does...plus Dirk has been sitting down late in games when the Cavs have to keep Lebron in to finish out.Defense...Dirk is vastly improved, but alot of people still live off the old stereo types and say he isn't, oh well. Lebron is at the same level as Dirk is...so that is a wash.Leadership, you might give to Bron, Dirk's has been questioned.Clutch play, Dirk, he'll take, and make in most cases that last shot...Bron hasn't proved that yet.They are really about as even as you can get.But you can't compare them...I mean it's not like comparing a SG/PG or SF/PF...it's comparing a Guard and foward...to way different positions.</div>Yes, MUCH harder. As I said in another topic, but a long and athletic swingman on Dirk, and you can slow him down to 20PPG or so. Bron can shoot very well and just as hard to guard in that way. Bron is unstoppable when driving to basket unless you have good frontcourt defense. And if he is slowed down scoring wise, he can get 10-12 assists. Scoring wise they are equal? Dirk is better shooter, but Bron can score in so many more ways, and just as efficient. The guy is averaging 32PPG on 48% shooting...I don't think that is equal.Everything else I agree with, except it is not even. Bron is far better passer/playmaker/overall scorer than Dirk. But, Dirk is much more clutch, and a better shooter. And they are both forwards....<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>All the things you said can be said for Dirk, Dirk at 7 feet for a big is a matchup nightmare for a lot for teams, they don't know if they want to put a small or big on him. Because he can take a big off the dribble and take a small downlow. Also, a 7 footer who has range is pretty versatile. And better scorer, Dirk has a wide range of moves from downlow to 3pt. He also shoots a better percentage then Bron who just now is extending his range. Not taking away from Bron's offensive games, but I don't see him scoring in a variety of ways. He is the better passer though with his court vision. Both players defense leaves a lot to be desired.The only thing I don't agree with is Bron can take over games. Isn't that the knock on him right now that he doesn't take over games in the waning minutes?</div>No one can stop Bron except his mentality. Physically, there are a handful of players that can slow Dirk down much more than they can for Bron. Dirk's FG % is .483 to Bron's .480....there is barely any difference there. That is in Bron's favor, as he is a swingman and Dirk is a PF, and PF's naturally have better FG %. Bron can shoot the 15ft fadeaway and his 3 point shooting has improve so dramatically. And like Wade and MJ himself, when his range fails him, all he has to do is use his athleticsm. Dirk doesn't really have that luxory.I never said in crunch time, but he can take over games and score 20 points in 1 quarter or explode for a whole game like against Miami on Saturday. Waqas- I'm sorry, all I heard was slurp slurp slurp
Wow, I wouldn't go that far Wagas...allthough I support your stance.Once agian, they play two different positions...Lebron has to be a playmaker by starting the offense like a guard, and a go to guy by scoring, which he has to prove.Both are nightmare matchups, but ask any coach in the league, and they'd never want to face Dirk on fire...sure some guys can slow him down, but he never gets shutdown...when his shot isn't falling, he gets to the line, or posts up(which he's gotten much better at this year).Overall this conversation is a wash...most people operate under the preconcieved conceptions of Dirk, he's soft, doesn't play defense, isn't a leader, blah, blah, blah...But Lebron hasn't proved much of anything so far in his career either, except that he could finally lead a mediocre team to the playoffs in a weak conference.Noone will win this argument, just like the MVP debate...there are too many differing opinions, and too many guys that are deserving it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marvinmartian @ Apr 6 2006, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, I wouldn't go that far Wagas...allthough I support your stance.Once agian, they play two different positions...Lebron has to be a playmaker by starting the offense like a guard, and a go to guy by scoring, which he has to prove.</div>32 PPG on 48% shooting....you don't think he is a go-to scorer?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Both are nightmare matchups, but ask any coach in the league, and they'd never want to face Dirk on fire...sure some guys can slow him down, but he never gets shutdown...when his shot isn't falling, he gets to the line, or posts up(which he's gotten much better at this year).</div>Marion and T-Mac in playoffs last year proved my point that certain player can make him pretty ineffective. I agree, Dirk is probably 2nd hardest guard in league.....next to Bron.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Overall this conversation is a wash...most people operate under the preconcieved conceptions of Dirk, he's soft, doesn't play defense, isn't a leader, blah, blah, blah...But Lebron hasn't proved much of anything so far in his career either, except that he could finally lead a mediocre team to the playoffs in a weak conference.Noone will win this argument, just like the MVP debate...there are too many differing opinions, and too many guys that are deserving it.</div>He is leading a crap team to same seed as Dirk is leading his team, which would have made playoffs without him. IMO this isn't that close....Bron is more dangerous scorer, can score in many more different ways, is just as efficient, far better passer, great rebounder for SF, and more of a leader than Dirk. Dirk is better shooter, clutch performer, and if you want to give him edge on defense, it doesn't matter too much.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='32232' date='Apr 7 2006, 01:39 AM']32 PPG on 48% shooting....you don't think he is a go-to scorer?[/quote]Yes but Dirk is a better outside shooter and free throw shooter. Lebron takes more shots in the inside[quote name='Nitro1118' post='32232' date='Apr 7 2006, 01:39 AM']Marion and T-Mac in playoffs last year proved my point that certain player can make him pretty ineffective.[/quote]Yes they made Dirk's job harder but Marion didn't slow down Dirk. Mcgrady did. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='32232' date='Apr 7 2006, 01:39 AM']He is leading a crap team to same seed as Dirk is leading his team, which would have made playoffs without him.[/quote]The east is pretty pathetic and Dallas would be the second seed if it weren't for the 3 divisions crap. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='32232' date='Apr 7 2006, 01:39 AM']IMO this isn't that close....Bron is more dangerous scorer, can score in many more different ways, is just as efficient, far better passer, great rebounder for SF, and more of a leader than Dirk. Dirk is better shooter, clutch performer, and if you want to give him edge on defense, it doesn't matter too much.[/quote]Lebron's leadership hasn't been tested yet. So far if you count the end of games he hasn't done it. The offense is run more through Lebron but he has a lot of shooters this year so that really helps out. If Hughes was playing, Lebron's stats would be down some.
And to be a go to scorer, you have to do it in the clutch as well. And he's not that guy, yet.And noone has kept Dirk under 20 this year, which I believe shows that he's learning to adjust his game to those pesky guys.What makes Bron the toughest guy to guard in the league? I mean what separates him from Tmac, Melo, or even Kobe(who I think is a better player than Bron)...what seperates Dirk is he's 7 ft, and is a tough guard for either fowards or centers...You can throw a 2, or a few, at a guy like Bron, and keep him from blowing up...you have to have a guy like Tmac or Bowen to even hope to contain Dirk, and even then he's still going to get his 20 points, and as seen this year, he's a better passer...and that'll make a big difference in this years playoffs.Once agian, this has turned into a defending Dirk thread, this was supposed to be who's better, and once again, you can't compare them because they play different positions and have different responsibilities.
[quote name='mavsfan1000' post='32253' date='Apr 6 2006, 10:17 PM']Yes but Dirk is a better outside shooter and free throw shooter. Lebron takes more shots in the inside[/quote]Dirk is a better outside and free throw shooter than MJ ever was....does that make him a better scorer? Marion did slow him down in half court. Everyone's numbers go up against Suns, but Marion did a pretty damn good job on Dirk, and despite the fast tempo, still held Dirk under season averages. East isn't pathetic. Detroit/Miami/NJ are better than Spurs/Suns/Nuggets. There are some tough teams in East for sure. And nontheless, Cavs still are still in 4th seed, as are Mavs. Damon Jones and Donyell marshall have done sh*t this year. Outside of them no shooters. Dirk has Stack, Van Horn, Terry, Howard, etc... And through January when Hughes went down, bron's numbers were nearly identical to what they are now. Bron has been the emotional and physical leader of Cavs, a crap team who has been led by a 21 year old to 4th seed in a decent conference. Bron has done it in 4th quarters. I agree, in clutch he hasn't come up, but he if cavs need 40 points from him, he can get it on any given night. That is a go-to scorer. Let's wait till playoffs to see how Dirk adjusts. This year Bron has been held under 30 for less than 50% of his games. I also agree Kobe (and T-Mac) are better than bron, but that is beside the point. He is much larger than Kobe, strength and height wise. He is arguably the most ahtletic player in league, and no one can guard him one on one. Unlike other forwards, he can get to basket at will or nail a fadeaway. Dirk is definately a hard guard for forwards and center, but Bron can play the 1, 2, and 3, and no one can stop him except himself (example: Ron Artest always seems to get in his head). Bron is 6'8'' 240lbs, even Kobe, a large 2, is only 6'6'' 220lbs. You can't throw anyone one on one at Bron, and if you double team him, he is such a good passer he will drop 10 assists on you. He is so incredibly versatile. Dirk can only be contained by very few players, but in playoffs I guarentee in one of the series he will be held well under his season averages (I can see Bowen doing it). This doesn't have to be a defending Dirk thread. I stated my opinion and why I feel that way, and you turned it into making me look like I'm hating on him. I'm not, but I feel Bron is definately a better player than Dirk.
In no way is Miami better than Phoenix or SAS. There better than Denver but against Phoenix they are horrible.
Detroit/Miami/NYJ/Cleveland isn't better than SA/Suns/Nuggs/Dallas...and the next 4 seeds out west are what really makes the difference. The west will have all there team above .500 more than likely, the East isn't close.Yeah Dirk probably won't average 26 ppg in the playoffs, probably 23, and that's being shut down...crazy man.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marvinmartian @ Apr 6 2006, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Detroit/Miami/NYJ/Cleveland isn't better than SA/Suns/Nuggs/Dallas...and the next 4 seeds out west are what really makes the difference. The west will have all there team above .500 more than likely, the East isn't close.Yeah Dirk probably won't average 26 ppg in the playoffs, probably 23, and that's being shut down...crazy man.</div>I said top 3, excluding Cleveland and dallas, showing that East is definately tough this season. Of course West is tougher, but it isn't like the East is "weak".I never said he could be shut down. you said that. I said he can be slowed down enough to where he isn't nearly as effective. No one can shutdown a superstar. But, you are much more likely to find players who can slow Dirk down compared to Bron.
