Alrite, so some people say Dirk is limited to 20 PPG against athletic guys like Bruce Bowen within half a feet of his height.So you really want to compare him against some of the league's best defenders?Let's put Ron Artest and Bruce Bowen upto the challenge:BRUCE BOWEN:Has he killed Dirk?: Yes, on December 1st he did, but Dirk was clearly on some sort of off-night, because he had some open shots he even missed. Limited to 14 points, 7-8 from the line, but at least didn't turn it over.Has Dirk had any plain games with nothing special being guarded by Bowen?: Yes, on March 2nd. Dirk was 6-15 from the field and 1-5 from beyond the charity stripe, but posted 11 rebounds and went perfect on all 10 free throws.Has Dirk ever blown the top against Bowen this season? Yes, on November 5th. Dirk was 12-20 from the field, 4 of 5 from beyond the ark, and made all 6 free throws. His 8 rebounds also impacted the game.It just seems to me that Dirk's good performances against Bowen results in a big win, an average makes it a tight game, and a poor makes it a hopeless game.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='32279' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:49 AM']Dirk is a better outside and free throw shooter than MJ ever was....does that make him a better scorer?[/quote]No that means that Lebron depends on scoring around the basket and is unable to consistently hit outside shots. If he did than he would be the toughest matchup. Just force him to shoot jumpers. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='32279' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:49 AM']Marion did slow him down in half court. Everyone's numbers go up against Suns, but Marion did a pretty damn good job on Dirk, and despite the fast tempo, still held Dirk under season averages.[/quote]It wasn't a big difference and Lebron's numbers would go down in the playoffs as well since teams will put strategies on how to slow him down and make him a perimeter player. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='32279' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:49 AM']East isn't pathetic. Detroit/Miami/NJ are better than Spurs/Suns/Nuggets. There are some tough teams in East for sure. And nontheless, Cavs still are still in 4th seed, as are Mavs.[/quote]The mavs are in the toughest division in all of basketball. The record of Dallas is way ahead of Cleveland so the seeding is a little uneven. The top 2 teams in the east is tough but after that there is a huge drop off but all the teams in the west are tough.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='32279' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:49 AM']Damon Jones and Donyell marshall have done sh*t this year.[/quote]So isn't Lebron supposed to make them better? [quote name='Nitro1118' post='32279' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:49 AM']Outside of them no shooters. Dirk has Stack, Van Horn, Terry, Howard, etc... And through January when Hughes went down, bron's numbers were nearly identical to what they are now. Bron has been the emotional and physical leader of Cavs, a crap team who has been led by a 21 year old to 4th seed in a decent conference.[/quote]I don't see the leadership skills but whatever. He still seems a little scared to take the big shot.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='32279' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:49 AM']Bron is 6'8'' 240lbs, even Kobe, a large 2, is only 6'6'' 220lbs. You can't throw anyone one on one at Bron, and if you double team him, he is such a good passer he will drop 10 assists on you. He is so incredibly versatile. Dirk can only be contained by very few players, but in playoffs I guarentee in one of the series he will be held well under his season averages (I can see Bowen doing it).[/quote]I can see Bowen do the same to Lebron James along with Artest. Lebron has done a ton for his team this year but it's not like he doesn't have scorers or shooters to help him. Gooden, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall, and Ilgauskas. His stats are great but his team is giving up a lot of points so he obviously is very weak on that side of the court.
Look, guys, Dirk is a guy who's one-of-a-kind. LeBron is a lot like Kobe, T-Mac, Arenas, those guys who get the ball like 70% of the time.But when playoff opponents play conventional defense, LeBron could be shut down, and that's why Dirk doesn't average more. About 30-35% of his scoring is in the fourth quarter (about 7 PP4Q) and lots of his shots are preparing him for Bruce Bowen and those tough defenders.
Dude, Lebron and Kobe are more like MJ than anyone in the leauge. They arent JUST scorers, they're brillaint plays talent and defense(wellKobebasically). Lebron is a better passer, he's a tripple double threat EVERY night.
[quote name='mavsfan1000' post='32304' date='Apr 6 2006, 11:08 PM']No that means that Lebron depends on scoring around the basket and is unable to consistently hit outside shots. If he did than he would be the toughest matchup. Just force him to shoot jumpers.[/quote]You must no watch Cavs games, as he can hit that outside jumper. let's say he couldn't....NO ONE IM THE NBA can keep him out of the paint one on one. It takes a great defensive frontcourt and a good one on one defender to slow down Bron on the drive. Make him a perimeter player and he will still score on ya, but I still don't think there is a single team in this league that can stop bron on drive, with the exception of Spurs and Pistons. Don't forget he will also get you 7APG... Nets are extremely tough, don't count them out. I agree there is a drop off, but East isn't "weak" like it used to be. And Dallas and Cavs are in same seed, and both will be out of playoffs in 2nd round (no offense to you Mavs fans, but Spurs are one helluva team). Watch the Miami-Cleveland game this past weekend. bron got Marshall tons of open looks....all bricks. Marshal almost cost the Cavs the win. Jones is finally coming around, but both have had problems in new systems. Definately not Bron's fault. Being a leader isn't just taking the big shot. Shaq never took the game winners for those LA teams...KObe did. But Shaq was undeniably the leader of those teams. Watch LeBron, watch him guiding his teammates and controlling tempo. Watch him pretty much setting up plays in timeouts. Just watch....no doubt he is leader of Cavs. I can't say same for Dirk, and I feel Mavs don't have a true leader, and Avery Johnson is sort of the one who does that job. Only way to stop Bron is by phsycing him out. Physically, Bron can get to rim or shoot over anyone he desires. Dirk isn't ahtletic enough to get past a Marion or T-Mac. Gooden is in no way shape or form a good scorer (11PPG). Jones hasn' done sh*t until past few weeks (6PPG on 38% shooting), and Marshall has been a huge dissapointment (9PPG on 38 % shooting). Big Z is fantastic (16PPG), but before Bron came he only had one season that was on par compared to the seasons he has had Bron. And don't play that game, Dallas has Stack (13PPG), Terry (17PPG), Howard (15PPG and great D), Van Horn (9PPG), etc...As for Bron's D, it has improved, although isn't as good as could be. His steals have went way down, but his blocks and PF's per game have increased, which shows he isn't making foolish plays in trying to go for steal and let players go by him. Now he is more agressive and is doing better. Neithe rplayer is a great defender, and neither has a big advantage on D. They both play different kinds of players, too (Bron has to guard tougher competition for the most part).
Lots of reading but I noticed you said Marion has bothered Dirk, but this year Dirk seemingly has taken it at him shooting over 50% against the Suns in 3 games. I can't say anything about Tmac since he's been injured, the only person who has bothered Dirk this year has been Bowen. But yea back to debate.
I meant last year in playoffs, but in halfcourt offense Marion is the type of player. Not necassarily the player (same with mac). Athletic forwards with long arms have all the tools to give Dirk tons of problems. No one in NBA can do that to Bron physically. I'm done with this arguement. Bron is better passer, scorer, playmaker, and IMO leader than Dirk. I feel he is a better player, but IMO this season Dirk has been best PF in league. So much props to him, but Bron has this.
Guys, look at it this way.If Cavs were in East, their record would be way down.That explains why Dirk is more of an MVP.
We're not talking about MVP. And if Dirk was on Cavs, they would be much worse. If Bron was on mavs, they'd probably be about the same.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 7 2006, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Lebron went to Dallas, the Mavs would win 55 games. With Dirk it is 60+ games.</div>You're assuming everything. The truth is that Dirk's supporting cast is better than lebron's. You cannot compare who would do better and whateva,Would dirk be able to somehow make Marshall and jones hit 3's? I dont' think so.
I never said Dirk would make the Cavs better. I think Dirk fits better in the Mavs team than would Lebron though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 7 2006, 07:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I never said Dirk would make the Cavs better. I think Dirk fits better in the Mavs team than would Lebron though.</div>Explainedit: Pus nitro kobe's not 220 anymore, he's like 210. He lost some weight because he said he wanted to run more.
Well the mavs are low in 3 point shooters. Dirk's outside shooting is important to their game. Lebron can hit them to but not as well. Also I think Lebron would be forced to play power forward and that will make Dallas weak on defense because of the size difference.
I really wouldn't call Dirk Nowitzki a much better rebounder than LeBron James, Dirk is only averaging 8.9 a game while LeBron is nabbing 6.7 a game. For this year it's a wash, I don't know.
i'm basing this on who is better this year. i have no doubt in my mind that LeBron will be the greater player after they both retire.PASSING-Lebron JamesNowitzki-2.8 APGJames-6.7 APGLeBron is a far better passer. it really is amazing that he averages such a high number considering his teamates dont do a superb job at hitting the open shot.SHOOTING-Dirk NowitzkiNowitzki-48.3FG%-41.2%3PT-89.7FT%James- 48.0FG%-34.3%3PT-73.8FT%Dirk is the better shooter, maybe not the best scorer, but the better shooter. Lebron has taken 113 more 3pointers than dirk this season, but only has 21 more 3pointers made. Dirk also makes more FT than James. Dirk is #6 in the league in ft%. James however does get to the line more often than Dirk. He's shot 234 more free throws than Nowitzki. He only has 87 more made free throws than him though.SCORING-Lebron JamesNowitzki-26.6PPGJames- 31.6PPGI think that James gets the slight edge here on just pure talent to put the ball in the hoop. He does shoot the ball more becuase he has more of a resbonsablity to score on his team, but he is better at driving the ball, and better in transition. This is very close, but i think james is more of the pure scorer.REBOUNDING-Dirk NowitzkiNowitzki-8.9RPGJames-7.2RPGnow if you look just at the numbers, you might think that they are really pretty much even. But i give the edge to Dirk because you have to look at thier teamates and team stats. The Mavs shoot around 46% from the field, while the Cavs shoot 45%. That means that there more misses that Lebron has a chance to rebound. Dirk also has more offensive rebounds than Lebron. He has about 30 more offensive rebounds.DEFENSE-PushNowitzki-0.68SPG-1.05BPGJames- 1.67SPG-0.87BPGBoth James and Nowitzki arent very great defenders. they are both not liabilites on the defensive end, but they also could be better. they are pretty much even here. EFFICIENCY-NowitzkiDirk is the one that has the more efficent game. Dirk averages 36 minutes a game while james averages 42 minutes a game. Dirk scores more effecent on his shooting, doesnt take as many bad shots, and doesnt turn the ball over as much. Dirk-1.9TO, James-3.39TO. POISE-Dirk NowitzkiDirk has more poise in the final quarter of play than lebron. sometimes lebron jsut seems to disapear in the 4th. he misses major free throws and major shots. James has made 2 out of 16 game winning shots. that is 12%. his FT shooting isnt much better, 4out of 8 for 50%. he does have 4 assists and 2 TO also. Dirk has made 6 out of 18 game winning shots for 33%. he shoots 6 out of 10 from the free throw line for 60%. he doesnt have any assists, and has 2TO. Advantage-Dirk.Team Record-Dirk NowitzkiNowitzki-56W-19LJames-45W-30LNot only does dirk's team have a better record, but they are also in the harder conference. Dirk does have better teamates, but a teams record also represents the star player of the team. OVERALL-Dirk Nowitzki
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pjcolpitts @ Apr 7 2006, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>i'm basing this on who is better this year. i have no doubt in my mind that LeBron will be the greater player after they both retire.PASSING-Lebron JamesNowitzki-2.8 APGJames-6.7 APGLeBron is a far better passer. it really is amazing that he averages such a high number considering his teamates dont do a superb job at hitting the open shot.SHOOTING-Dirk NowitzkiNowitzki-48.3FG%-41.2%3PT-89.7FT%James- 48.0FG%-34.3%3PT-73.8FT%Dirk is the better shooter, maybe not the best scorer, but the better shooter. Lebron has taken 113 more 3pointers than dirk this season, but only has 21 more 3pointers made. Dirk also makes more FT than James. Dirk is #6 in the league in ft%. James however does get to the line more often than Dirk. He's shot 234 more free throws than Nowitzki. He only has 87 more made free throws than him though.SCORING-Lebron JamesNowitzki-26.6PPGJames- 31.6PPGI think that James gets the slight edge here on just pure talent to put the ball in the hoop. He does shoot the ball more becuase he has more of a resbonsablity to score on his team, but he is better at driving the ball, and better in transition. This is very close, but i think james is more of the pure scorer.REBOUNDING-Dirk NowitzkiNowitzki-8.9RPGJames-7.2RPGnow if you look just at the numbers, you might think that they are really pretty much even. But i give the edge to Dirk because you have to look at thier teamates and team stats. The Mavs shoot around 46% from the field, while the Cavs shoot 45%. That means that there more misses that Lebron has a chance to rebound. Dirk also has more offensive rebounds than Lebron. He has about 30 more offensive rebounds.DEFENSE-PushNowitzki-0.68SPG-1.05BPGJames- 1.67SPG-0.87BPGBoth James and Nowitzki arent very great defenders. they are both not liabilites on the defensive end, but they also could be better. they are pretty much even here.</div>Up to here, I agree with you 100%. But now you say this sh*t?...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>EFFICIENCY-NowitzkiDirk is the one that has the more efficent game. Dirk averages 36 minutes a game while james averages 42 minutes a game. Dirk scores more effecent on his shooting, doesnt take as many bad shots, and doesnt turn the ball over as much. Dirk-1.9TO, James-3.39TO. POISE-Dirk NowitzkiDirk has more poise in the final quarter of play than lebron. sometimes lebron jsut seems to disapear in the 4th. he misses major free throws and major shots. James has made 2 out of 16 game winning shots. that is 12%. his FT shooting isnt much better, 4out of 8 for 50%. he does have 4 assists and 2 TO also. Dirk has made 6 out of 18 game winning shots for 33%. he shoots 6 out of 10 from the free throw line for 60%. he doesnt have any assists, and has 2TO. Advantage-Dirk.Team Record-Dirk NowitzkiNowitzki-56W-19LJames-45W-30LNot only does dirk's team have a better record, but they are also in the harder conference. Dirk does have better teamates, but a teams record also represents the star player of the team. OVERALL-Dirk Nowitzki</div>Dirk doesn't have to play PG for his team. That explains TO's. he doesn't have to score 30PPG to win. And I'd say 32/7/7 on 48% shooting is more efficient and better than Dirk's 26/9/2.How do you classify poise as just being clutch? Bron is the team leader, is much more vocal than Dirk, and has led such a crap team to same seed in playoffs that Dirk has. Bron is 3 for 17 now I believe, and while he hasn't been clutch much, he has drastically improved over past month. Hit game winning shot, scored 20+ points to battle Wade last Saturday, took over game in similar fashion few weeks back as the hating started about his clutchness, etc... Team record has nothing to do with this. Kobe is better than Bron, despite having a worse team record and in worse playoff seed. Dirk's teammates are so much incredibly better than Bron's are.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If Lebron went to Dallas, the Mavs would win 55 games. With Dirk it is 60+ games.</div>Cavs would be same. Bron shoots just as many shots as Dirk, and would get more assists, thus making teammates improved. Dirk can't play PG for Mavs, which is the biggest thing Bron does for Cavs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Bron is the team leader, is much more vocal than Dirk, and has led such a crap team to same seed in playoffs that Dirk has</div>Probably because the Cavs are in the East, and the crappy division seeding. Dallas is 2nd overall in West and 3rd overall in NBA, while Cavs are 7th overall(possibly 8th on how Clips finish).
Once again, east isn't that weak. And it doesn't take away from the fact he is averaging the best statistics in NBA and leading a team that would be lottery bound without him. Mavs would still be a playoff team without Dirk, Cavs would be lottery. Bron is the emotioanl and physical leader of Cavs, Dirk is only physical leader.
The East is weak except for Detroit and Miami is not as good as Phoenix. Especially with their injuries. So what Lebron is the emotional leader and physical leader of a crap team. When he becomes one on a contender than I would respect him as the better player. Lebron was forced to be a leader by the personnel he has. Lebron isn't experienced enough to be a good leader since he hasn't proved it in the playoffs yet. If the numbers are close between Dirk and Lebron than that is enough to break the tiebreaker on who is better by the teams success.edit: also that argument about them being the same seed is weak.
