But the numbers aren't close. Bron is averaging 32/7/7 to Dirk's 26/9/2. Both shooting equal FG %. Bron is 2nd leader in triple doubles. Most 30 point games. 5th player ever to have 5 or 6 games of at least 35 points and 5 rebounds. Dirk isn't emotianl leader of Mavs, either. He is physical leader, meaning leading by example, but he is not the emotional leader.
How about this, line up the actual 4 best teams on each side...not their seedings, but the way it should be.SA/Detroit - push, SA beat the Pistons in seven last year, when the Pistons had a bench.Dallas/Miami - Dallas, proven by the fact that Dallas hasn't lost to Miami since they've gotten Shaq, enough for me.Suns/NJ - These teams are almost mirror images of each other, but the Suns are more potent.Nugs/Cavs - Interesting, but I'd take the Nugs here.And we don't need to go 5-8, as the Clipps, Grizz, Lakers and whoever finishes 8 are better than the Wizards, Bucks, Indiana, and whoever finishes 8th.The east isn't as weak as it once was, but it's still a big step down to the West, as to why the Cavs even have a 4th seed calibur record.And just like his "no defense" argument against Dirk, the same applies to his leadership. Noone can tell me that Lebron is more of a leader than Dirk, or that Dirk is more of a leader than Lebron...that's not something you can really compare.Lebron is the floor leader of his team, but that doesn't make him a better leader than Dirk.Both are the unquestioned leaders of their teams, and both are vocal. You just dont' see Dirk popping off all the time, and being a media type person...if he was in commercials and always in the press like a Lebron, than people would think of him more as a leader.And then people say that Dirk isn't a good leader cause he blew up in the playoffs...damn that <Censored> happens, MJ blew up all the time till he started winning chamioships.Basically this is getting dumb, people would rather have Lebron, and in the East, I'd say yeah, cause you don't need a 7 footer over there, but in the West, like say Lebron was in Dallas, we would be worse, cause he couldn't matchup all that well with the Spurs, Suns, and Nuggets like the Mavs can with Dirk.It's all about the teams needs.And to say the Cavs would be worse with Dirk is false also...He'd be one of 4 legitimate "Big Men" in the East, Plus it's the same thing everyone said about him when the Mavs lost Nash, "There's no way the Mavs can keep it up, Dirk's not a leader or the go to guy"...The Mavs still won 55 games, and now without Finley they said the same thing in the offseason too, and the Mavs will win 60 or more.The arguments are <Censored>.Once again, comparing a guard and a foward doens't make sense.
Like I keep saying Lebron is forced to be the emotional leader by default while Dirk chooses not to be. Anyways the leadership thing is overrated. You can be a leader by showing it on the court like Duncan. It still comes to how the team works around that player and I feel Dirk is the easier player to build around. Lebron has no other playmakers so he is forced to pretty much have the ball every possession. If Dirk was forced to do that the stats, Dirk would be averaging over 30 points also but he chooses to defer to Josh Howard a lot which is a good thing for the team. If Dirk was all about getting his touches, it would hurt the team. The balance is good.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marvinmartian @ Apr 7 2006, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How about this, line up the actual 4 best teams on each side...not their seedings, but the way it should be.SA/Detroit - push, SA beat the Pistons in seven last year, when the Pistons had a bench.Dallas/Miami - Dallas, proven by the fact that Dallas hasn't lost to Miami since they've gotten Shaq, enough for me.Suns/NJ - These teams are almost mirror images of each other, but the Suns are more potent.Nugs/Cavs - Interesting, but I'd take the Nugs here.And we don't need to go 5-8, as the Clipps, Grizz, Lakers and whoever finishes 8 are better than the Wizards, Bucks, Indiana, and whoever finishes 8th.The east isn't as weak as it once was, but it's still a big step down to the West, as to why the Cavs even have a 4th seed calibur record.And just like his "no defense" argument against Dirk, the same applies to his leadership. Noone can tell me that Lebron is more of a leader than Dirk, or that Dirk is more of a leader than Lebron...that's not something you can really compare.Lebron is the floor leader of his team, but that doesn't make him a better leader than Dirk.Both are the unquestioned leaders of their teams, and both are vocal. You just dont' see Dirk popping off all the time, and being a media type person...if he was in commercials and always in the press like a Lebron, than people would think of him more as a leader.And then people say that Dirk isn't a good leader cause he blew up in the playoffs...damn that <Censored> happens, MJ blew up all the time till he started winning chamioships.Basically this is getting dumb, people would rather have Lebron, and in the East, I'd say yeah, cause you don't need a 7 footer over there, but in the West, like say Lebron was in Dallas, we would be worse, cause he couldn't matchup all that well with the Spurs, Suns, and Nuggets like the Mavs can with Dirk.It's all about the teams needs.And to say the Cavs would be worse with Dirk is false also...He'd be one of 4 legitimate "Big Men" in the East, Plus it's the same thing everyone said about him when the Mavs lost Nash, "There's no way the Mavs can keep it up, Dirk's not a leader or the go to guy"...The Mavs still won 55 games, and now without Finley they said the same thing in the offseason too, and the Mavs will win 60 or more.The arguments are <Censored>.Once again, comparing a guard and a foward doens't make sense.</div>Not gonan reply to most of this, as most of it seems to be your answer to what everyone else says, not me. But 3 things:1) Mavs got Stack, Terry, and 2 rookies who matured after Nash. It wasn't just Dirk improving. 2) Without Bron, Cavs would have no PG, and no overall guy. Dirk would be a top 4 big man in East, but he doesn't play the big man role, he plays the scorer/shooter role. Cavs would be far worse with Dirk, as they would lose everything Bron does for Cavs, playmaking, scoring, passing, etc... As for Mavs, I do not know with bron. That'd be interesting to see. They would probably be about same, maybe a little worse as they would lose that valuable mismatch with Dirk. 3) Detroit beat SA twice this year....in blowout fashion. Spurs and Pistons are equal IMO. I would take Heat over Suns. Wade is better than anyone on Suns, Suns have no low post presence (especially one like Shaq) and bench is deeper for Heat. I would take Mavs over Nets, although watch out for Nets. As for Nugs and Cavs, I'd say it is about even, assuming both teams are healthy.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Like I keep saying Lebron is forced to be the emotional leader by default while Dirk chooses not to be. Anyways the leadership thing is overrated. You can be a leader by showing it on the court like Duncan. It still comes to how the team works around that player and I feel Dirk is the easier player to build around. Lebron has no other playmakers so he is forced to pretty much have the ball every possession. If Dirk was forced to do that the stats, Dirk would be averaging over 30 points also but he chooses to defer to Josh Howard a lot which is a good thing for the team. If Dirk was all about getting his touches, it would hurt the team. The balance is good.</div>He is forced into it, and does it better than most players in league. Bron shows it on court all the time, too, just like how Dirk does. LeBron is a natural playmaker and point. He can get a triple double anytime he wants, unlike other stars players like Kobe, T-Mac, Pierce, etc... Bron is easiest to build around in the league. he is an amazing scorer, very willing passer, good leader, and only 21.
Yeah and it is proven by his team record. Stop hating on Dirk. Lebron has proven nothing except that he could he could get a team into the playoffs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 7 2006, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah and it is proven by his team record. Stop hating on Dirk. Lebron has proven nothing except that he could he could get a team into the playoffs. </div>You know damn well Mavs as a team are lightyears better than Cavs. That is a ridiculous arguement. And say what you want, but Mavs and Cavs are in exact same seeding in their respective decisions.Melo- What has Kobe proven as a leader? In 2 years after running Shaq out of LA, this year is only his 1st year of getting into playoffs. LeBron, at 21, is averaging 32/7/7, carrying an injury riddled Cavs team to homecourt advantage and a more than likely 50 win season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Once again, east isn't that weak.</div>The west is loaded from top to bottom, east isn't. That's why their weak. Three teams are below .500 in the east playoffs. West has none below .500.
I never said they were tougher than west. But east certainly isn't weak. They got some tough teams, most of them very streaky in their play (example: Cavs winning 7 straight, then go on 6 game slide, etc...). But even teams like Sixers are pretty dangerous on certain nights, as are Boston, Washington, and Indiana.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I never said they were tougher than west. But east certainly isn't weak. They got some tough teams, most of them very streaky in their play (example: Cavs winning 7 straight, then go on 6 game slide, etc...). But even teams like Sixers are pretty dangerous on certain nights, as are Boston, Washington, and Indiana.</div>As a whole compared to the west, they aren't stronger so that implies weaker. None of those teams are dangerous in the playoffs except Indiana and possibly Washington.
Who said kobe's a good leader? I didn't.Lebron is not a good leader because he hasn't proven anything. Simple.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rok @ Apr 7 2006, 09:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As a whole compared to the west, they aren't stronger so that implies weaker. None of those teams are dangerous in the playoffs except Indiana and possibly Washington.</div>Yes, weaker than west, but saying they are "weak" implies that the east isn't tough at all. And despite records or whatever, some of those teams can do decent damage and can go on 4-6 game winning streaks.Melo- Bron is youngest ever to reach 4,000....5,000......and 6,000 points. One of only I believe 5 players in NBA history to average 27/7/7 in a season....he did that in his 2nd season. He just became old enough to drink this year.....same year he is averaging 32PPG, which would lead league in scoring 95% of the time, and he did it with a 48% shooting percentage, which is damn near unparallelled.. He has led a team full of injuries and dissapointments to homecourt advantage in playoffs and probable 50 win season. He has had more 30 point games than any other player this season. I believe leads fowards in assists. He has had I can count 3 20 point fourth quarters in past month or so. Has dominated in major head to head matchups (namely against Wade and Pierce). So, he hasn't proven anything?
No he hasn't, he's never been to the playoffs before [this season he will]. Doing stuff in the regular season is great, doing things in the playoffs makes you a legend. That is why Duncan is better than Kg.Wade has proven more than lebron because he's done stuff in the playoffs, made some noise. Hit some clutch shots. Lebron hasn't.
Doesn't make you any bette rof a leader. Dirk has gotten farther in playoffs than KG (minus one year) but he isn't a better leader IMO. Being a leader has lots to do with what you do on a nighlty basis, not just in playoffs. That is Shaq's problem, too....
Well lebron can go crazy in the regular season but if he does nothing in the playoffs then all of it comes to waste.
He will do just fine in the playoffs. If his shooting is off, he'll still get 10 assists. He has been the vocal and leader by example all year, just watch a Cavs game and see. In playoffs other players will look up to him more than ever.
Too bad his record doesn't back him up. Oh yeah Dirk proved tonight that he could win big games. Beating the spurs at home is a tough thing to do. Especially beating them in the straight game in San Antonio. It is rare for the spurs to lose 2 games in a row at home.
I'd say a 50 win season and homecourt advantage does back him up, especially with the stats he has (overall best in NBA), records broken (this year only Kobe has been more impressive breaking records) and his leading a crap team to sucha good record. Either way you cut it, both Cavs and Mavs will be out of playoffs in 2nd round.
Ok man but if the mavs beat the spurs than I win this argument easily. The cavs will be luck to get out of first round.
You're kidding me, right? if Dirk scores 30PPG and 10RPG in the Spurs series and they beat Spurs, I will give Dirk all props in world. But for you to say that Cavs will be lucky to get out of 1st round is insane. Bron will have no one to guard him in the Washinton series, and Cavs beat Detroit before. And once again, Mavs have a MUCH better team than Cavs....MUCH better. Just look at the stats I posted earlier in this topic about all of Dirk's teammates compared to Bron's.
