The cavs play no defense and it wouldn't surprise me because of that they lose. I won't blame Lebron but the whole team in general sucks at defense.
Nitro, your still trying to say Lebron is better than Dirk because Dirk's teammates are better?That's not even the arguement, you might be able to use that in the why Dirk isn't the MVP debate, maybe, but not here.The question was who's better, Dirk or Lebron, and in the end, I think most of us agree that it's a wash.Both guys do different things for their teams. Both Dirk and Lebron are the stat leaders for their teams, and the focal points of their respective offenses...Lebron HAS to score more because your right, the Cavs aren't in the same league as the Mavs as far as talent goes.BUT that doesn't prove he's better than Dirk...all that proves is that he's a damn good player that can lift a team up, in the REGULAR season. And he STILL has to prove he can be a clutch player, and do it in the playoffs as well.While Dirk hasn't won a title, he has led his team to the playoffs 6 strait years, with 53+ wins in each season(impressive no matter how you look at it, the Spurs are the only team that can match that right now), and has made at least the second round 4 times, and the West Finals once.But you'd take KG over Dirk? Why? The one year he made it out of the first round, and the 1 year he made the west finals only to get run over by the Lakers?Dirk may not by your typical leader, but he does it alot like TD, he's a quiet, lead by example, and by his play on the court, player.Noone ever questions TD and his leadership, when he's basically the same type of leader.ONCE AGIAN, YOU CAN'T COMPARE THESE TWO AS THEY A GUARD AND A FOWARD, and THEY ARE DO DIFFERENT THINGS FOR THEIR TEAMS BECAUSE OF NEED.This isn't about which team is better, of course the Mavs are, but then why do you say "it doesn't matter, the fact is they are both the 4 seed"?Kinda hypocritical if you ask me.
I brough tup Dirk's teammates ONLY because people are gloating about how Mavs have better record than Cavs.As foir everything else you said, you basically reiitirated mine and yours points. But you misinterpreted one thing: I never said KG was better than Dirk, I said he is a better leader, despite only getting farther than Dirk once. But again, here is how I break this down: Bron has scoring, passing, playmaking, and an "it" factor that only few players have. That it factor can be classified as unguardable, at times unstoppable, etc... Dirk is a better rebounder and is clutch, and also better shooter. I'd take Bron over Dirk anyday. But again, Dirk has been best PF this season and has really earned his stripes.PS- Bron is a FOWARD. He is 6'8'' 240lbs.
He doesn't play Forward, or doesn't have the skill set of a foward, he's a Guard type player. He wouldn't be able to play foward night in and out, especially out West against the likes of Dirk, KG, TD, Brand, Gasol, AK-47, and probably a few others as well.And that unguardable "it" factor can most defenitively be attributed to Dirk as well, considering he's become one of the biggest nightmare matchups in this league, not to mention probably the best big man shooter ever.Yes Lebron is a better passer, like I said, he has the skill set of a guard.Lebron can be classified as a scorer, as he gets points in any way possible.But so can Dirk as he can score down on the post and can get to the FT line even in an off night. The difference is, everyone knows Dirk is considered a Shooter...so he can do it both ways. He can kill you outside or in, Lebron has to prove that...he does compensate though by being a better passer.But don't sleep on Dirk passing abilities, the Mavs as a whole don't get many assist because of the pick and roll, and ISO offense they run...but if you watch the Mavs when they are at their best, Dirk gets his 25 and 10, but he is always giving the ball up when he's double teamed, or making the pass that leads to an assists(which is something alot of people overlook, that first pass is important almost as much as the assist pass itself).I reiterate, Dirk is a PF, and Lebron is a SG maybe a SF, but really has the skills of a guard. Top that with the fact that both are asked and required to do different things for there teams to win, will make this arguement go on forever.I'd take Dirk, because you can't teach size...especially size that can move like he does, and shoot like he does. I may not get Lebron, but you can get another guy comparable, ala Kobe or Tmac...or another poor man's LebronNoone in the league is anywhere near to what Dirk is, KG is probably the closest but nowhere near the range, so where are you going to find that?.
[quote name='Marvinmartian' post='33031' date='Apr 8 2006, 12:27 AM']He doesn't play Forward, or doesn't have the skill set of a foward, he's a Guard type player. He wouldn't be able to play foward night in and out, especially out West against the likes of Dirk, KG, TD, Brand, Gasol, AK-47, and probably a few others as well.[/quote]Bron is a SF. period. He is a swingman, a large swingman, and a SF. I agree 100%, but the it factor just isn't being unguardable (which Dirk isn't). It is just that "it" that you can't explain. Some players have it, some don't (I feel right now, Kobe, Bron Wade, and healthy T-Mac have it). You contradicted yourself. You said he can score in every way possible, then said he hasn't proved he can score inside and out. This season he has proven he can shoot the outside jumper very effectively, and no one can stop him on the drive. I consider Nowitzki a scorer, but he isn't as versatile as Bron. That is taking NOTHING away from Dirk's offense, as he is extremely efficient. Problem is Bron is just as efficient. Any good big man can pass out of double teams.... Yes they play different positions, but both fowards. No guard in the NBA can guard either of them. Yes, Dirk is indeed one of a kind....as is Bron. No swingman in league has passing ability Bron does. Except for Wade, no swingman can average 30PPG on 48% shooting. No swingman except marion averages as many RPG as Bron does. No swingman except Kobe has carried his team like LeBron has. No one in league is as unguardable as Bron is. Unlike Kobe or T-Mac, he can beat you in about 50 different ways on offense. Of course I'd take Bron, especially if I was building a team. He improved so much from last year, shooting, leadership, defense, etc... Give him another year and he will be best player in NBA.
Okay, what makes Bron more unguardable than Dirk? Is it the same thing that makes Kobe and Tmac unguardable?I mean cuase just like those 2 guys, everyone has their off nights, and sometimes another team just gets the best of them. It happens, to Dirk, Kobe, TMac, Wade, Bron everyone...All these guys are the most unguardable guys in the league, but none of them are easier to stop than the rest, it's as simple as that.And while Bron is the better at diving to the baske than Dirk, he's not nearly as good, especially with range, as Dirk...they off set each other there.The point I was making there, is that Dirk has proved he will go inside and Bang, and dive if needed, Bron while his outside shot has improved, isn't a guy that you are sure when the ball leaves his hands it'll go in...I can say that about Dirk. Now don't go nuts saying he's a 48% shooter or what not...I've seen him take over games, just like Lebron and Kobe, where he never misses. The difference is he's been doing it about 5 years longer than Bron.I mean if you wanted to compare them, they really are about as even as they come.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marvinmartian @ Apr 8 2006, 01:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Okay, what makes Bron more unguardable than Dirk? Is it the same thing that makes Kobe and Tmac unguardable?I mean cuase just like those 2 guys, everyone has their off nights, and sometimes another team just gets the best of them. It happens, to Dirk, Kobe, TMac, Wade, Bron everyone...All these guys are the most unguardable guys in the league, but none of them are easier to stop than the rest, it's as simple as that.And while Bron is the better at diving to the baske than Dirk, he's not nearly as good, especially with range, as Dirk...they off set each other there.</div>What makes Bron more unguaradle than even Kobe? He can pass better than any player in league not named Kidd or Nash. He can get to hoop better than anyone in league, with exception of maybe Wade and Parker. And while Bron doesn't have the shot Dirk does, he can go through streaks where he is every bit as good as any other swingman in league from outside. On the other hand, Dirk can never drive or get to basket like Bron, and his passing isn't even on same level. I still feel there are certain types of players that can slow down Dirk a lot (like last night, although Dirk was just unbeatable in 2nd half), and no one can slow down Bron except Bron himself.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The point I was making there, is that Dirk has proved he will go inside and Bang, and dive if needed, Bron while his outside shot has improved, isn't a guy that you are sure when the ball leaves his hands it'll go in...I can say that about Dirk. Now don't go nuts saying he's a 48% shooter or what not...I've seen him take over games, just like Lebron and Kobe, where he never misses. The difference is he's been doing it about 5 years longer than Bron.I mean if you wanted to compare them, they really are about as even as they come.</div>Once again, Dirk is IMO the 2nd most unguardable player in league on nightly basis. Bron is just that more tough to guard, in the fact he is fast as anyone in league, is taller than your normal SG and is bulkier than most for a SF, his athleticism is top notch, his shot is very good, and passing unparalleled for a non-PG position. I feel he has some qualities that no PF has. Dirk doesn't bang like other elite PF, no does he rebound or defend like other elite PF's. Therefor, the advantage Bron has from being an elite swingman doesn't go same for Dirk and him being a PF.Amd who cares if Dirk has been an all star or whatever 5 years longer. Past 2 seasons, Bron has done things not even Kobe has scrapped the bottom of. Bron has proven to be the leader of Cavs. Dirk is leader by example, but he is not as vocal, whether it be on court, on bench, etc.... I do not think Bron is best player in league, but I do not consider Dirk to be better than him. Dirk has just as much to prove as Bron, and what bron has proven to me is more mindblowing than what Dirk has.
DIRK CAN'T REBOUND!?Are you kidding me!? He's tied for 10th in defensive rebounds in a playoff game twice!! He averages 9 a game this season!!LeBron is tough to guard, definitely, but has anybody ever called him a "defensive nightmare" like Dirk has been called many times?Lots of Dirk's scoring comes in the fourth quarter, and in fact, I think he's still in the top 5 in 4th quarter PPG!Just look at last night, for example.He had a shot with almost 3 minutes left over Bruce Bowen, and it was such a freaking hard shot, and he somehow got it powered-up enough that it rimmed-in.Dirk also had a leaner over Parker that basically put the game away for San Antonio.Could LeBron do that?No.CB4-This is a warning. Don't sear like that anymore.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Waqas @ Apr 8 2006, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>DIRK CAN'T REBOUND!?Are you kidding me!? He's tied for 10th in defensive rebounds in a playoff game twice!! He averages 9 a game this season!!</div>Never said he couldn't. But he can't rebound like TD, KG, and other elite PF's can.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>LeBron is tough to guard, definitely, but has anybody ever called him a "defensive nightmare" like Dirk has been called many times?</div>Yes, all the time.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Lots of Dirk's scoring comes in the fourth quarter, and in fact, I think he's still in the top 5 in 4th quarter PPG!Just look at last night, for example.He had a shot with almost 3 minutes left over Bruce Bowen, and it was such a freaking hard shot, and he somehow got it powered-up enough that it rimmed-in.Dirk also had a leaner over Parker that basically put the game away for San Antonio.Could LeBron do that?No.</div>Bron scored 17 points in 4th quarter tonight to beat the streaking Nets, scored 20 points in huge comeback against Knicks, scored 20 points to beat Heat and counter Wade, scored 20 points against Pierce in 4th quarter few weeks back, etc... Bron may be terrible in last second shots, but he is shooting 55% in 4th quarter of games and comes up huge in 4th quarters.
Look, man, in the playoffs, you'll see the conventional defense turn LeBron into LeGone like LeSalle.
LoL, just like what T-Mac did to Dirk last year?No defense can stop Bron. He's score 30 on Spurs this season (beat them), scored 30 on Kobe, scored 36 and 46 against your amazingly defensive Mavs, 37 today against a very good defensive team in Nets, 30 against Detroit which was a win, and bron dropped 37 and 25 against their first round opponents, the Wizards. Only person that has done the job effectively is Ron Artest. And the Wizards, Pistons, nor Heat have anyone who is nearly as good on D that can matchup as well as Ron can to Bron. Real honestly, you are only saying in playoffs Bron will suck just to say Dirk is better. If this was Bron vs say Vince Carter, you would probably be riding his d*ck.
Woe there small fry, the Mavs are better at defense, but they aren't a shut down team yet, yeah guys like Bron and Kobe are going to get there's agaisnt them, but they don't go nuts(cept for the one 63 point outing by Kobe) anymore on us. And don't compare team defense to what one player does, Bron can score 40 and the Cavs lose and it'll be fine with me.Bron isn't the best passer in the league not named Kidd or Nash, he's a damn good passer, but your saying he's a foward, if he is he's not that good a passer.I say he's a guard with SF size because of his passing ability. I don't think he's in the top 5 passers, but he's good.Besides, passing doesn't make a player unguardable, getting the shot off under pressure does, and that's not Bron. Being able to drive to the basket is, and both do that well, maybe Bron is better there, and the players ability to score on off nights, and I'm not sure about Bron, but I know Dirk still gets over 20 points on a 3-18 night because of his ability to get to the line.Plus, I know your not going to say Bron is more of a post up player than Dirk, it's not Dirk's strength, but he CAN do it.And don't think that Dirk isn't as good a rebounder or player as KG or TD, TD has maybe proven it by winning 3 Rings, but Dirk has a different offensive game than both those guys. He can bang low, but he's better in the midrange, and top of the key.Man this is just going on and on, both players are great. Bron still has tons to prove, and Dirk has to prove it in the playoffs.
[quote name='Marvinmartian' post='33685' date='Apr 8 2006, 06:01 PM']Woe there small fry, the Mavs are better at defense, but they aren't a shut down team yet, yeah guys like Bron and Kobe are going to get there's agaisnt them, but they don't go nuts(cept for the one 63 point outing by Kobe) anymore on us. And don't compare team defense to what one player does, Bron can score 40 and the Cavs lose and it'll be fine with me.[/quote]Bron is averaging 41PPG against Mavs this season.....that is going nuts. And I never said Cavs defense is better than Mavs.... You can be a foward and still a damn good passer. Bron can do everything a PG, SG, and SF can do with a SF body....he is a SF. And Bron has 3rd best court vision in league, leading fowards in APG, and you listen to the legends like Magic Johnson, and they'll say his passing ability is what makes him so special.Bron gets to foul line more times per game than Dirk does, at I believe around 10 a game. hell, bron went 24-28 a month ago from the line. Bron can most certainly gets shots off under pressure, whether it be when he's double teamed with a hand in his face or dunking over someone. Also, Dirk isn't anywhere near the driver Bron is.....not even CLOSE. Dirk is a better shooter than Bron, but Bron is a much, MUCH better driver. Dirk is a fantastic post player....outside of 12-15ft. But he can not post up players near the paint like a KG, Duncan, Amare or Shaq can. Dirk isn't near the rebounder KG or TD is.....that isn't even up for discussion. As I keep saying, this season Dirk has been the best PF in the league, which includes TD and KG. But when healthy and all in decent situations (KG's situation this year has killed his stats) I'd take KG and Duncan over Dirk. KG is more athletic than Dirk, has a fantastic midrange game, can bang much more down low and is better defender. As for Duncan, he just wins and is a fantastic overall player. Either way, Dirk is one helluva player and this season has been the best of the 3.I agree, this is going on and on. I think the only thing either of them really have to prove is what they can do in playoffs. Bron has proven this year he can come up in clutch, can shoot outside jumper as effectively as say a Paul Pierce, can drive better than anyone else in league (exceotions of Wade and maybe Parker), and can put up numbers and stats more impressive than say Kobe and T-Mac. He still has to prove he can be a better defender and come up in clutch a little bit more, but this year he has proven all the haters wrong. Dirk is a fantastic player, and has very few flaws. It is hard comparing these 2 players, but IMo Dirk just isn't as versatile as Bron, and doesn't have the "it" factor that very few players have. That is to take nothing away from Dirk, but has to be brought up in a topic like this.
Give up man. Dirk can post up smaller players, hit the mid range shot all day, and hit 3 pointers if given some room. He also plays better defense than Lebron. I wouldn't have said this in years past but every year Dirk has gotten better on defense. The proof is how well the team plays defense now compared to the mavs past along with the Cavs team now.
LeBron is naturally a football player. That's why he gets to the line so much.Anyway, when Cleveland needs a clutch basket, they'd take Nowitzki over LeBron.And Dirk is definitely a better overall scorer.He averages the most points on the team by getting the 2nd most touches and oppurtunities on the team.
I might start to get into this.Dirk is a great shooter, one of the best in the League and he also has decent moves, like the fake and then go to get him to the line or get him a layup but come on now. Lebron is just crazy. Lebron, this year has turned into a good shooter. But the thing that sets him apart is that he, along with Wade can get through the lanes at will. If his shot isnt falling he will just go through the lanes and go to the line or pick up a lay in. He does this very often and it gets him alot of points. Him and Wade are similar about this. The thing is that Dirk is 7"0 and Lebron is 6"8 and plays the perimeter on defense and yet, almost gets as many boards as Dirk which is amazing. If he were playing PF, I bet he could get 10 if he really focused on it. He has amazing strength. He also is an extraordinary passer. Unlike Kobe he can get his teammates involved and he will do that often. He is great at getting Damon Jones or Flip Murray open for 3 because he draws that double team from the wing player and he can just drive and dish. Kind of like Nash. And also he can throw that beauty of an inside pass to Big Z or Drew from the top of the key to get them easy baskets.As for his clutch performances, he will get better at that. He is still only 21. I know Melo is youn gand he is clutch but Lebron still has alot of time to get used to that sort of thing. We still have yet to see how he performs or doesn't perform in the playoffs, so we really can't judge until then. ANyway, I just wanted to point out this bc I think that you Mavs fans are overrating Dirk. He is very versatile on offense and he is a mismatch but Lebron can do more things then Dirk on offense and if Lebron was like Kobe he could score 40 on a very consistant basis as well. But he would rather get his teammates involved.
Better 3 point shooter=DirkBetter mid range shooter=DirkBetter free throw shotter=DirkBetter slasher=JamesBetter defender=DirkBetter rebounder=DirkBetter Scorer=JamesBetter Passer=JamesIf we count all these things equally than more of them favor Dirk.
