Merged: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by illmatic99, Jun 30, 2009.

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  1. andalusian

    andalusian Season - Restarted

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    I do not like Carter on this roster for the following reasons:

    1. He is a SG first.
    2. He plays the same position as Roy.
    3. He can be a diva.

    I am not wetting myself at the thought of Hedo - but I think he fits this roster better than VC.
     
    andalusian, Jul 1, 2009
    #181
  2. Stevenson

    Stevenson Old School

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    Great teams have a core and add role players. Hedo is not core, but he is a great role player. The old Lakers had Kareem, Magic and Worthy and then had Norm Nixon and Byron Scott as the PGs. Mychael Thompson was the 6th man for a while, after Michael Cooper.

    That is what KP is doing. In KP we trust.
     
    Stevenson, Jul 1, 2009
    #182
  3. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    #2 is based on #1, and I don't think #1 is accurate. Carter would be just fine at the small forward position. Saying he's a "SG first" when he's played so much small forward over his career isn't useful or, IMO, true.

    #3 is true of any player as good as Carter. He hasn't been a problem for any of his teams recently, so I wouldn't be worried about that.

    It seems like a pretty weak list of reasons to justify passing on such a superior player to Hedo.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Jul 1, 2009
    #183
  4. Minstrel

    Minstrel Top Of The Pops Global Moderator

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion

    I agree with your thoughts. If Portland gets Turkoglu, I'll be glad that at least the cap space was cashed in for a useful player that helps Portland, but I will still be left wishing that it could have landed a better player.
     
    Minstrel, Jul 1, 2009
    #184
  5. B-Roy

    B-Roy If it takes months

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    Perhaps the reason is because now the assets used to acquire Carter can be used to acquire a PG like Miller or Kidd.

    Yeah, VC is a better player than Turkoglu, but would his impact be the same as Turkoglu AND Miller? (Example PG)
     
    B-Roy, Jul 1, 2009
    #185
  6. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    I hope this is the case... I prefer upgrades at both spots to having traded for VC, and am holding out hope that we're going to do something on the PG front.

    I just am comparing Hedo signing as a FA to trading cap space to get Carter. I know I might be commenting prematurely and I might be underestimating the cost to get VC (although given what they got from Orlando (nothing), I probably am not).

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Jul 1, 2009
    #186
  7. B-Roy

    B-Roy If it takes months

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    I wouldn't say nothing....Courtney Lee as a prospect is about as good as Batum.
     
    B-Roy, Jul 1, 2009
    #187
  8. andalusian

    andalusian Season - Restarted

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    KP and company like big teams. VC is a 6-6 guy. Hedo is 6-10. Hedo works better as a SF in this kind of a team than VC does. Yes, you can play VC or Roy at SF - but they are most effective in their natural position as SG.

    And - VC being a diva rumors were also heard when Jason Kidd was there - and was one of the reasons quoted for Kidd wanting to move out.

    A proper team balance will not have too many chiefs, Hedo is a fantastic role player, offers extra size and does not have VC's reputation for quitting when things do not go his way.

    Is VC a better player? No doubt. Is he a better fit with Portland's roster and core? I do not think so. Talent trumps everything when you do not have enough of it - but once you do - you go for fit - and VC, quite frankly, does not sound like the right fit.

    I am willing to bet that Orlando is in for some rude awakening next year. Losing their size advantage (what got them to kick the Cavs), losing their backup center, I do not think Orlando makes it to the finals next year.

    Even if VC is twice the player Hedo is (which I do not think he is) - you are getting a guy that fits better and there is less of a chance for half amazing, half a season (in effort, at least).
     
    andalusian, Jul 1, 2009
    #188
  9. Fawzi83

    Fawzi83 Member

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    Fawzi83, Jul 1, 2009
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  10. Minstrel

    Minstrel Top Of The Pops Global Moderator

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    Courtney Lee is a far worse prospect. He's 3+ years older than Batum and was worse last season.

    Lee (age 23 season): 10.8 PER
    Batum (age 20 season): 12.9 PER

    Unless Batum doesn't improve at all over his next three years, he's likely to be a much better player in his prime.
     
    Minstrel, Jul 1, 2009
    #190
  11. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    I would disagree. Courtney Lee was terrible last year and he was old for a rookie.

    Of course, maybe the Nets agree with you and they were asking for Batum last year as part of the VC trade. If so? I'm glad we didn't do it. I'd rather have Hedo and Batum than VC, I think...

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Jul 1, 2009
    #191
  12. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    They received Courtney Lee on a rookie deal and a crapload of cap space in 2010. It was a good trade for a team that won only 34 games with Carter.
     
    PapaG, Jul 1, 2009
    #192
  13. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    They would have got a crapload of cap space in 2009 in a deal with Portland... and (as I outlined above) I don't consider Courtney Lee to be a positive addition in a deal.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Jul 1, 2009
    #193
  14. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    He shot 45% from the field, 40% from 3PT, and averaged 8.4 ppg on a very good team. Saying he was "terrible" is disingenuous. A "terrible" PER, sure, but he was asked to shoot, and he did that very well.
     
    PapaG, Jul 1, 2009
    #194
  15. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    For what? So they could get Hedo? The 2010 class is much, much better than 2009. Franchise players versus good players, and having the cap flexibility as the economy continues to struggle will be even more of a plus next year at the trade deadline. Again, the Nets won 34 games with Vince Carter in the East. It's not like they were on the verge of a title.
     
    PapaG, Jul 1, 2009
    #195
  16. LittleAlex

    LittleAlex Well-Known Member

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    I agree with this.

    Cap space in 2010 will be extremely valuable. Cap space in 2009 is only valuable to teams that won't be able to have any space in 2010.

    The free agent pool in 2010 is sick. This years free agent pool is sad.

    You know it's pathetic when Hedo is far and away the best free agent. He wouldn't be in the top 10 next year.
     
    LittleAlex, Jul 1, 2009
    #196
  17. Masbee

    Masbee -- Rookie of the Year

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion

    Ok, let's parse this out a bit.

    With Turk the FA target, did KP make a mistake in not trading for Vince Carter at the trade deadline - for the reported RLEC for Vince and picks?

    Vince is making a lot more money than Turk will get over the next couple of seasons. I think in terms of salary issues that the team would have had to cut at least one of Blake/Outlaw to reduce the overall team salary. Meaning that trading for Vince meant Vince and no other new big(ish), long salary coming in.

    On the other hand, if we can obtain Turk for ~$8mil starting salary, I think the team will be willing to flip Blake/Outlaw for similar money several more years out. We are in a position to do sign-and-trades for an Andre Miller or a trade for Kirk Hinrich.

    It is Vince at $15mil per, or Turk and PG at $16 or $17mil per.

    IF the Blazers can get that done, I prefer that to Vince.

    Some other discussion points:

    Vince is 2/3. The Blazers already have a lot of depth at those positions. Guys that can cover the 2: Roy, Rudy, Batum, Blake, Bayless, Webster. Guys that can cover the 3: Roy, Batum, Webster, Outlaw.

    Turk is a 3/4. Guys that can play the 4: LaMarcus, Outlaw.

    Turk is excellent at the post entry pass.

    Turk is a better passer than Vince.

    Turk is a better defender than Vince.

    Turk does not have a prima-donna reputation.

    Turk has a proven ability to contribute to a winning team while not being the number 1 scoring option.

    Yes, there is no doubt that Vince is the better player, more explosive scorer, and better shooter. But, would he be the better fit? I think that is open to some question.

    If we just wanted an explosive scorer, wouldn't Ben Gordon have been a better target? Younger player that could play the 1 on defense next to Roy is a better "fit" for an explosive scorer on our team than a 33 year old who most recently played the same position as our best player.

    This lineup:
    Gordon, Roy, Batum, LaMarcus, Oden
    look better to me than this:
    Blake, Roy, Carter, LaMarcus, Oden.

    This lineup looks better too, assuming we can get it:
    Hinrich/Miller, Roy, Turkoglu, LaMarcus, Oden
     
    Masbee, Jul 1, 2009
    #197
  18. Nikolokolus

    Nikolokolus There's always next year

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    My god. Everyone cries all year about our guards being unable/unwilling to run a side pick and roll with Oden all year and now we have a point forward in our sights who is one of the best in the NBA at running this exact play and now people want to quibble over a contract that might be somewhere in the range of 10 million per year? It might be slightly overpaying, but point to one other free agent(s) at a position of need who is as likely to fit as well?

    I'm not exactly wetting myself with anticipation over the prospect of signing him, but I think this along with another move to add a slight upgrade at the point guard spot (Miller or Hinrich spring to mind) through a sign and trade pushes this team into serious title contention for a at least a few years to come and hopefully young guys like Bayless and Batum are ready to provide meaningful minutes as starters when Miller/Hinrich and Hedo's star starts to fade.

    Besides, title contention is still going to hinge far more on the level of play Roy, Aldridge and Oden provide than whatever other roster moves are made this season and future seasons, it's getting solid B-B+ players with experience to fill roles -- as KP is apparently trying to do this off-season -- that makes me feel satisfied with the idea of acquiring a guy like Hedo, Miller, Hinrich, etc.
     
    Nikolokolus, Jul 1, 2009
    #198
  19. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    He was asked to shoot, shot well, and yet only scored 8.4 ppg... while racking up a terrible PER.

    What does that tell you? It tells ME that he just stood around and didn't contribute at all unless the ball was in his hands.

    Perhaps "terrible" was an overstatement, but as a 23 year-old I would expect more if he were a good prospect.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Jul 1, 2009
    #199
  20. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

    I'm not saying Lee was the key part of the deal. The 2010 cap space could turn around the Nets. 2009 cap space would have made them worse than they were with Carter, unless Turkoglu or Ariza are considered upgrades over Vince Carter and (allegedly) two #1 picks. The alleged RLEC/VC + two #1 picks made no sense to me at the time for New Jersey, and I still don't think it was ever seriously offered.
     
    PapaG, Jul 1, 2009
    #200
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