These guys put some D in the NBA

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Most underrated defensive player in the game.

 

Expect to see Nicolas Batum and Greg Oden on that list next year. Batum is playing great in the Eurobasket tournament and played respectable defense last year as a 19/20-year old rookie. Oden is a huge defensive presence. He needs to cut down on his fouls, but once he does, he will be a game changing defender in the paint.

I'm also surprised that Kevin Garnett, Chris Paul and Rajon Rondo didn't make the list.

BNM

 

Why would Chris Paul make that list? He steals the ball, he's not an elite defender though.

Should have had Kobe in again regardless, better defender than Wade.

Seemed a bit soon to choose some other people on there too, like Ariza.

 

The NBA head coaches, who know a thing or two about basketball, disagree with you. They voted him 1st team all-defense in 2008-09 and 2nd team all-defense the season before.

BNM

 

And they have terrible Defensive player of the year voting as well. They get swayed by things like Steals and Blocks per game, which is what Paul is, not an elite defender. He gambles and gets burned on D, he doesn't have much size even as a point guard.

 

No they don't. Defensive Player of the Year is voted on by a panel of sports writers and broadcasters - NOT the NBA head coaches. The 1st and 2nd all-defense teams are voted on my the 30 NBA head coaches. I value their opinions MUCH more than I do sports writers and broadcasters - who as you say, can be easily influenced by gaudy stats. The coaches have to prepare their teams to play against guys like CP3. They have extensive scouting reports and know their opponents strengths and weaknesses. And, they happen to consider Chris Paul ne of the best defenders in the entire league.

And, yet he outproduces his opposing PG by a far wider margin than any other point guard in the league.

His net per-48 stats:

PER +16.3
PTS/48 +10.9
REB/48 +2.0
AST/48 +6.4

He also forces his opponent to turn the ball over and he gets fouled a lot more than he commits fouls. He basically holds his opponents to below average production while lighting them up on the other end and racking up a ton of steals. I personally value steals much more than blocks as steals always result in a change of possession and often result in an easy basket for your team. Blocks often end up back in the hands of your opponents, either by being blocked out of bounds or recovered by your opponent - often for an easy basket.

The only other two starting PGs that belong in the conversation are Rajon Rondo (who the coaches voted 2nd team all-defense) and Chauncey Billups (who has been 2nd team all-defense twice).

BNM

 

Battier has been blackballed from the All-Defensive teams for years until recently. The voting ignores defensive specialists.

No, not at all. In fact the Hornets were a much better defensive team last year, by quite a huge margin, when he was off the court. This year he gave another comparable but somewhat better performance.

Nice job Mr.Stats, but what does net PER have to do with defense? That's just bringing up completely pointless figures, offensive numbers. ;]

He was awful last year, leading the league in PER given up at the PG spot I believe? This year he gave up above average production again.

 

2008-09 on court/off court stats:

Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
On Court: 107.3
Off Court: 110.7
Net: -3.4

Looks like to me that NOH was a better defensive team with him on the court than off it.

It shows that he holds his opponent to MUCH, MUCH lower production that he contributes on the other end.

I don't have time to dig through the stats for all 30 NBA starting PGs, but here's how Chris Paul's 2008-09 opponent's PER stats stacked up against some other well known starting PGs, including some known for their defense:

Opponents PER 2008-09:
Chris Paul - 17.2
Deron Williams - 17.3
Jason Kidd - 21.7
Chauncey Billups - 16.2
Rajon Rondo - 16.5
Devin Harris - 18.6
Steve Nash - 18.2
Tony Parker - 16.7

It looks to me that Paul is pretty much middle of the pack, to slightly better, among the league's best PGs in terms of opponent's PER.

And, he lead the league in steals by a wide margin. So, if he does get burned by taking chances, it must not be very often - and when he does get the steal, it's almost always 2 points for his team. If you watch him play, you'll see that most of his steals are in the backcourt, or near mid-court. If he gambles and misses 40 feet from the basket, he can use his quickness to recover, or at least his teammates have time to react. If he steals the ball at mid-court, nobody from the other team is going to catch him from behind and prevent the easy lay-up. So, yeah he gambles a lot, but the reward is much greater than the risk.

Again, I don't have to defend his defense. I'll leave that to the NBA head coaches who voted him first team all-defense. The only three players who received more votes than Chris Paul were: Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant and LeBron James - and this was from NBA head coaches that make their living studying film and knowing their opponents' strengths and weaknesses.

BNM

 

107 On court, 101 Off court, in 07-08. You praised that year for some reason that still puzzles me.

It has absolutely nothing to do with a defensive award. You're just going on a tangent by including Paul's offensive numbers. This is a defensive player team not All-NBA.

Wow that is terrible. In fact if anything that just shows Paul is mediocre at best on D. JKidd defends SGs a lot in Dallas by the way.

18+ PER given up, the year before man.

Yeah these aren't exactly all world defenders. Steve Nash and him are comparable defensively back in 2007-2008, which isn't a good sign.

The league average is 15.

By your own standards, he's a below average defender.

Is Allen Iverson also an elite defender? You actually do have to defend his defense, it is pretty unspectacular and he had absolutely no reason to acquire any honorable mention in 07-08. Certainly not a first team this season either. Defense is harder to track, I'm not surprised the voters are off somewhat every year.

 

I didn't "praise" that year. All I did was state the FACT that he was voted 2nd team all-defense by the NBA head coaches. The original list that started this thread isn't about who was the best, or worst, defenders in 2007-2008. It's about who are the best defenders NOW. The author of the article listed 28 player. My comment that started this discussion was simply:

"I'm also surprised that Kevin Garnett, Chris Paul and Rajon Rondo didn't make the list."

I just found it surprising that the author didn't think two players who the coaches voted 1st team all defense, and another they voted 2nd team all-defense didn't get mentioned in his list of 28 players.

Kidd has been 1st or 2nd team all-defense nine times. He's obviously lost a step, but it shows you how tough it is guarding other starting PGs in the Western Conference. The number I posted was his opponent's PER when playing PG.

Again, this list is best defenders NOW, not 2007-08.

Some of them are considered the best defending PGs in the league and many of them them are GREAT offensive players. Which is one reason I included them.

And Nash has gotten worse and Paul has gotten better, which is a good sign.

WRONG! I would agree if Chris Paul was playing the bulk of his minutes against AVERAGE players, but he's not. Hollinger's statement that PER = 15.0 = average player is based on ALL players, not just starters. Most starters will have a PER > 15.0, while most bench players will have PER < 15.0. Of course there are exceptions, but Paul plays the bulk of his minutes against other starting PGs, most of whom are FAR above average offensive players. Also, note the PERs I am quoting here are from 82.games.com and they are actually PER/48 (more on that below), not straight PER. Here are the PERs (2008-09 PERs while playing PG) for some of the players Chris Paul is asked to guard on a regular basis - the same players I listed previously:

PER 2008-09:
Deron Williams - 23.3
Jason Kidd - 19.0
Chauncey Billups - 21.1
Rajon Rondo - 21.0
Devin Harris - 24.0
Steve Nash - 21.7
Tony Parker - 25.9

Those are some of the guys Chris Paul has to guard on a nightly basis. They are all FAR above average offensive players. In fact, if you look at the 29 starting PGs Chris Paul had to guard in 2008-09 ten had PERs above 20, and only seven have PERs below 15. The Western Conference is especially stacked with great offensive PGs. The fact that Paul holds these guys to a PER of 17.2 shows that he's a better than average defender who holds his opponents below their seasonal PER.

As mentioned above, the PERs reported by 82games.com are different than those reported using Hollinger's method. 82games.com uses PER/48, which run a little higher. It depends on minutes played, but for most staring players PER/48 will run about 10 - 15% higher than than Hollinger's straight PER which says that 15.0 is an average player. 82games.com also lists PER/48 by position. All the PERs I've reported here, both for and against are PER/48 while playing PG. So, saying 15.0 = average player, is not accurate in this context.

Strawman. What does Allen Iverson have to do with Chris Paul's defense? Here's the voting results for the NBA all-defensive teams for 2007-08 and 2008-09. Iverson didn't receive a single vote for 1st or 2nd team all-defense in either 2008-09 or 2007-08. So, I don't know what you're talking about and what it possibly has to do with this discussion.

BNM

 

--For a guard Chris Paul is one of the best defenders, and most definitely deserves a ring.
--Dywayne Wade is even better defensively; he deserves a second ring.
--Hollinger's PER is also a per unit of time thing, so it is not different from the other one for that reason.
--On court / off court is mostly garbage because a player is just one of five on the court at any time, and how can a player be held responsible for what goes on when he is not on the court??
--Positional measures, while not as bad as on court / off court, are still not very useful. Those numbers are compiled in numerous games that are irrelevant to what you are trying to show. Even in head to heads, there are too many switches and too many minutes where one of the two players you are trying to look at head to head are not on the court at the same time.

 

You've stated how you trust in the voters of the defensive team, so it is more than just stating a fact in your case. Chris gave up over 19 PER in the playoffs on defense in 08, that's what I mean as well, he's quite overrated defensively.

KG is miles ahead of the other guys, I shouldn't have a problem with you bringing up his name. I'm not sure about Rondo's individual D, but we're talking about Paul so that is another matter.

You listed some offensively potent PGs who give up a lot of PER, you have not proven that 17, or 18 PER is outstanding. Paul is simply better than some of his peers, and clearly it should go to a more defensive minded player.

You did mention how he made the 07-08 team.

You put Steve Nash and an older Kidd who has to deal with SGs up there. I don't think Parker or Billups at this stage is a supremely gifted defender either but they are better than Chris. We're trying to discuss past someone's reputation.

Why are they even comparable though? That's very concerning for me.

So select the best defensive PG who starts for a team. I am certain Paul wouldn't qualify either way.

Those are all the guys that any starter has to deal with, as do the other superstars who play in this league. Your argument seems to be that the point guard position is so pathetic defensively that Paul's numbers aren't actually that bad. Well he's still a dubious first-team choice, isn't he? He's nothing special even in context. And he should not be mentioned in a list of All-Defenders. Slightly better than Steve Nash makes you an all-world defender?

I don't think you provided the proper context either. Even Chalmers and Jose Calderon were better; Billups and Rondo are also choices.

Iverson throughout his career steals the ball and gives up less opponent PER. Not a strawman at all.

 

Chris Pauls defense is a joke.

 

Przybilla is the man! Does not back down to anybody!