Roy will take the next step to SUPERSTAR this season

They actually were going to make the playoffs even then, until Bryant got injured.

 

Bias is cherry-picking a few games to decide talent levels. How about Paul's previous year's playoff PER, when he had a nearly 31 PER in the playoffs? Paul's playoff average in PER is higher than Kobe's.

Having watched a lot of Lakers games, I don't agree with this at all. Kobe's best defensive years were when Shaq was there, when Kobe was younger and had to carry less offensive load. He's lost quickness and expends more energy on the offensive end now...he's an adequate defender who can be excellent in flashes. He's definitely not an excellent defender most of the time.

It's not a bad example to reject the "He has to defer to teammates, if not his numbers would be much better" logic. You can use that sort of speculation at any time and make up the numbers you think the player would put up on a different team.

I'm obviously not saying Pierce IS better than Kobe. I'm saying that your logic could be used that way and it would be equally invalid. Speculating about what a player could do in a different situation is neither here nor there. Kobe has to share the ball with two other good offensive players (Gasol and Odom)...that's far from unusual, to the point that we need to throw out his numbers. He's way behind Paul in production.

Your only argument seems to be "If you look at this year's playoff numbers for Paul and Kobe, Kobe is better...ignore everything else." I can also cherry-pick a stretch of games to make Pierce better than Kobe. Or Roy better than James. Taking into account the entire sample, regular season and playoffs, for the last couple of years, Kobe isn't as good as Paul.

 

Both Kobe and Lamar were out with injuries for a significant part of that year. It was really just Caron and Chuck Atkins.

 

I expect Roy to have his best season yet. He should be mentioned as an elite player. Top 10 easy

 

I'd love to think Brandon is going to take yet another step, but I think next year will look an awful lot like this past one. And that's not chopped liver. I just don't think either as a person or as a franchise, Roy or the Blazers are built like the K*be and the L*kers, Paul and the Hornets or LeBron and the Cavs.

The big step up this year I think will be Aldridge and Oden.

 

I have to agree here. I definitely think we will see the biggest improvement in Oden and possibly LMA. I expect Oden to take a major leap by the mid-point of the season. If he hasn't shown more sustained periods of dominance by then I might begin to worry.

I also think that while Roy can improve aspects of his game, I'm not sure he can take another huge step. He is already a top 7 player. He might become a top 6 guy if Duncan stops being able to avoid Ponce De Leon in the everglades every year. I hear tell that Duncan owes Ponce a chest full of pieces of 8, but has successfully been putting him off for 400+ years. Ponce kind of spaced it during the 80's and 90's while Duncan "pretended" to grow up in the Virgin Islands. When Ponce remembered again after watching the last Spurs Championship he was royally pissed off. Supposedly Ponce almost caught Duncan on his last trip to the fountain, so Tim might not have risked it this summer. We'll see this fall.

 

B-Roy gets his first ring this season. Guaransheed.

 

Roy already is a superstar.

 

Right so Kobe actually being a better player all of 2007-2008 including the post-season, is being biased? Let's be honest, you just looked at PER on basketball-reference and thought that was the end, when you can see it is much closer taking into account Roland's figures on this subject. It is cool brah no big deal. ;]

How am I cherry picking? He gave up about 19 PER all of 2007-2008, and again was unspectacular defensively this year. The difference is indeed huge on that end.

He outplayed Paul easily on D and Wade for example. There is simply no way you can knock what Bryant did Defensively, 9 then 10 at the two positions he guards speaks for itself. Yes he was also a monster before when he was in his early twenties, that has nothing to do with this discussion though.

It is pretty awful because Pierce didn't outplay any superstars throughout the entire post-season, so the example was not comparable.

No because you made it sound like I was talking hypothetically, when the production is right there as I said.

No my argument is throughout the entire two seasons. And given that their output is close, Kobe's top 5 Win Shares All-Time this post-season is nothing to discard. He was carrying the team on the perimeter and defensively with Trevor/Fish struggling one-on-one on D. You said Chris is "much much" better, when in fact this is far from the truth, as I said before I can just refer to Roland's amusing numbers.

 

I knew somebody would say this. Superstar is not a defined term, so what one person considers a superstar, another person might just consider a star. Personally, I would consider Roy a star in the past, like D. Williams and Joe Johnson. Both considered excellent players, but a step behind from the super-elite like Lebron, Kobe, Wade and Paul. All I am saying is that Roy will make that jump up to being considered in the same grouping as those players, perhaps with the exception of Lebron.

 

Paul was a better player when you use ALL of 2007-08 (year before last). He has better regular season numbers AND post-season numbers. In 2008-09, Paul was better throughout the regular season and Kobe was better in the post-season. Bias is cherry-picking the 2008-09 post-season and waving off the 2008-09 regular season, the 2007-08 playoffs and the 2007-08 regular season.

Not at all. I don't think PER is "the end." I think it's a lot better than "I'm a Lakers fan and I'll use whatever is convenient to claim that Kobe is still the best player and always will be the best player."

Kobe was the best player in basketball a few years ago. He's dropped off a bit from that and now is around the fourth-best player in basketball which is still phenomenal. I know that's blasphemy to you and even when he's retired, you'll be saying he's still the best player in basketball but "deferring" to his family. In your words: Don't worry about it, it's cool, brah. :] You're logical about most things, so I forgive your inability to discuss rationally about your favourite team.

Since you purposely keep missing the point on my Paul Pierce example (it was about your "he defers, which brings his numbers down" argument not about your beat-people-in-the-playoffs argument), there seems no point to continue with this. I don't feel like explaining the same stuff over and over. We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think Paul is "much much better" than Kobe as you incorrectly ascribed to me, but I think he's clearly better at this point.

 

No he was not, Kobe played more minutes at similar Roland figures throughout the entire 07-08 season. Then while you mentioned Chris's amazing 31 PER in that year's playoffs, you ignore how Kobe crushed him in individual differential. 13.5 compared to 12 in the post-season, due to Paul's atrocious defense.

The fact that you had Jerry West above Kobe Bryant a few weeks ago troubles me a little bit, considering someone like you that understands pace and the fact that West has not played in significantly more games or won much. You're normally on top of these things but West played in an era that did not focus on defense as much or was as deep on the perimeter, yet you feel he is somehow still comparable to Bryant; he's not even there offensively either. Before your eyes you see how Kobe's "25" PER last year in the playoffs bested Paul who seemingly was at 30; Bryant's total value was equal in the regular season as well in 07-08. I thought Paul was better in this year's regular season, but then Kobe outplayed/outdefended Wade in the playoffs for example and had a 17+ against the best in the league. With all this information there is no way Paul is clearly better, and in Chris' peak in the post-season his defense has still cost him true prestige so far.

Bryant has been the more reliable and healthy player. He actually clearly had the better 07-08 season and was epic in the most important part of the year in 2009. His last run speaks for itself on multiple tangible and intangible levels.

First off... I appreciate that. Don't ever get tired of that nice little season of his. ;] His true peak is even higher then that, over the last 70+ games that year he was at a level only Jordan reached, considering the 41 minutes a game and total production.

We all have biases, but I can't ignore how awful Paul is defensively compared to Bryant. It isn't my fault as I said before, that Bryant also had a historic post-season run as even b-r will confirm.

Hopefully I have addressed all your concerns by this point then.