Great analysis of Blazer offense, with vids

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Rastapopoulos, Sep 1, 2009.

  1. Eastoff

    Eastoff But it was a beginning.

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    Filling the Blazers with talented Rookies and the benches with prospects, Pritchard then filled the court with Andre . . . and then He declared that it was good.
     
  2. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Amen!
     
  3. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    Where are the countless amount of people I (and others) have debated with that Nate runs a lot more than 2 plays? The sad part is; those people will discount visual evidence that their statements are false. Could one of you at least admit that they were wrong?

    Regardless, this is probably the best post I've ever read on any message board. I've wanted to do this for years, however I couldn't give access to the software I use, nor did I want to take the time that this guy did. The NBA game, more than any other level, has offenses that are based on read and react principles. This video is a wonderful demonstration of how Nate puts his best players in the most positions to get a high percentage look, and hides the worst shooter while making him valuable to the offense in some capacity.
     
  4. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    It really is an amazing piece of journalism, because that's what it is.... journalism. That guy should be given some serious kudos.
     
  5. BlayZa

    BlayZa Misbehaving responsibly

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    i cringe everytime i see greg come down after a dunk, his legs often look like they are gonna buckle. great vids though, cool synching with the Pac track on the ooooo's
     
  6. BBert

    BBert Weasels Ripped My Flesh

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    I was very frustrated watching some of those clips with the number of times the 'roller' was wide open at or near or rolling to the basket, yet the ball was tossed outside for a jumpshot. And a lot of those outside shots, with a post player open underneath, were misses (and long rebounds to the other team).
     
  7. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    You've gotta be kidding me.

    I just wrote the longest post I ever have written for this site (I know, saying a lot) talking about these videos. I hit "post reply" and get the "you've been logged in since the last time you tried to access this screen" page. Post deleted.
     
  8. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    Couple of points (in outline format) on a great post. Would have been longer, but...

    I. Kind of a cherry-picked sample size. I understand the author's reasons for focusing on the late-season and playoff games (more familiar with coach's sets; better chemistry) but if you're going to use film to refute the notion that we had a "stagnant" offense (as some posters want to do) then it makes sense that you use stuff from DEC, JAN and FEB (when posters were complaining about stagnant offenses) mixed in with the newer stuff. But for the author's points: "what are the reasons behind the Blazers' high offensive efficiency" and "what plays did we really run", then it's a good starting point.

    II. Problems w/the Blazer Offense
    This study does a great job of pointing out some of the problems in the Blazers' offense. For someone that would claim our offense is in good shape, this really is kind of an eye-opener.
    A. The "All we run are iso's and pick-and-xxx's" claim.
    1...
    This is something that the author didn't prove in the post, though I'd like to see/do an analysis of that. How many teams have an all-star wing, and a good PF? What are the ratios of 1on1's in those offenses? Regardless, though, we run a LOT of 1on1's for Roy and LMA and (how does he fit in to "All-Star Wing" or "borderline All-star big"?) Outlaw.
    2. The pick-and-xxx
    I'll split this up into (a) big man not rolling and (b) guard didn't dare to pass;
    (a) Big man didn't roll. One of the problems I had with the offense was the dearth of times the PF (didn't matter if it was LMA or Outlaw or Frye) didn't roll to the hoop. The pick-and-pop is an ok variation of the pick-and-roll, but the two point jumper between 8 and 23 feet is the one of the worst-efficiency shots there is (behind dunks/layups, FTs and 3's). LMA shoots 41% from there, Travis 43%, Frye 42%. Even the author says:
    (b) guard didn't dare to pass---this is a big criticism that most of us have of Blake (and to some extent, Roy). Fortunately, though, this is one of the things I think/hope/pray that Andre Miller will be able to do with his eyes closed: Figure out who needs the ball, and where, and get it to them in a position to score.

    3. Roy's mid-range sets. This was the part of the article that changed my mind the most. I, like many, had previously lumped this in as a "Roy Iso". Even the author understands.
    But after seeing his breakdown, I'm able to break this out as a different play-call that the normal Roy iso at the top of the key. The author said something else I agreed with in this paragraph.
    This isn't just a problem for Roy. Outside shots (except for Rudy, Blake and maybe Webster) are the worst part of a players' game. But outside 2-pointers (as explained up in IIA above) are not only bad parts of players' games; they're the most inefficient. And yet two of our 3 most prolific shooters last year got "tons of their shots" in this inefficient area.

    4. The other stuff--I wish we could see more. The author does some good analysis and laying out why they'd work (especially for us), but the numbers of how many times we run these "other stuff" offenses compared to the iso, the P&R and the P&P are anemic.
    (a) The Hi-Lo: There were only two clips in there that were of the pure hi-lo, for good reason. We only broke it out for the MIL game. I remember watching that and getting very excited, since it seemed that we were finally opening up the playbook and involving Greg by getting him the ball in position to score. But we didn't continue, and the author takes a lot of space to discuss a play that we used in only one game. We had a couple of Hi-Lo variations off of the pick-and-roll, but even that wasn't used much. One of the great commentaries of the author:
    "This was the perfect point for LMA to make a pass (to a wide open Oden at the rim) but he didn't".
    (b) Post-initiated offense: I won't talk a lot about this, other than to say we didn't use this much either, though I think that both Oden and LMA are smart enough and decent enough passers to utilize this more.

    B. The "We're only an efficient offense b/c of our offensive rebounding" (I'll call this the "Mediocre Man Special"). The author basically sums up his analysis with this:
    He does say that Nate's offensive system is "an equally, if not more important, factor", but I'll address that in the "Logic Jumps" part in section 3.

    C. The "Nate really runs a good offense" claim
    The contention that I've made in the past is that, while I'll happily admit Nate's a good coach for the team due to his installation of discipline, the trust the players have in him, etc.; I'm not sure that his game-planning or X's and O's had much to do with the efficiency of the offense. At least, not as much as having Brandon Roy (and to a lesser extent, LMA/Oden/Przy). The author backs that up.
    At another point he states what, to some of us, is painfully obvious
    He's done a good job of breaking up the videos to show the different plays, but he doesn't talk about the percentages of, say, pick-and-pops to hi-los, and his analysis is more damning. But to be fair, when he talks about his optimism for the future, he talks about Andre Miller and organic growth. Maybe Nate's offense is fine, and the players just need to grow into better ball players.

    III. There are a couple of odd logic jumps.
    A. He says that "But the offensive system that McMillan and assistant coaches have installed for the team is an equally, if not more, important factor (to the team's offensive efficiency)". I disagree with this conclusion. He doesn't really build up to it in any of the video posts or analysis, other than the "spacing" aspect. The author tries to say in the summary that "It features spacing, simplicity and discipline. It puts players in positions where they know how to operate". I submit that this isn't the case. The author has said that the pick and roll frequently wasn't executed properly because the big man wouldn't roll or the guard wouldn't pass to him. That's not "knowing how to operate". The author said that LMA and Travis got "tons of their shots" on the mid-range jumper, one of the most inefficient shots in basketball and one they're shooting in the low 40%'s on. That's not "knowing how to operate". We had painfully few fast break opportunities off of our outstanding rebounding. Not recognizing that fastbreak dunks and layups are among the most efficient shots in basketball isn't "knowing how to operate".

    All in all, great work and good post. My opinion is basically to agree with the premise the author puts out that our efficiency is basically great because of "Roy's awesomeness and offensive rebounding", I don't think he showed that we have a complex, or varied, or un-stagnant offense. I agree with the author that
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  9. Mediocre Man

    Mediocre Man Mr. SportsTwo

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    Outstanding post Brian.
     
  10. mook

    mook The 2018-19 season was the best I've seen

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    Good post, BFW.

    I've become a bigger Nate fan largely as a result of researching that PER thread I did last week. And maybe a little because it's been so long since I've seen a live Blazer game that I forget how stagnant the offense occasionally got.

    But maybe some of Nate's "unimaginative/stagnant" offense is due to personnel and their lack of experience. When you give a kid a bike, you let him ride it around with training wheels for a little while so they get their confidence up and get comfortable with how it works and form good habits. Nate was giving the "training wheels treatment" to Oden, Batum, Sergio, Frye, Bayless and Fernandez last year. They had tightly defined roles, and almost seemed afraid of veering from them. Roy, Outlaw and Aldridge were the only guys who seemed to have the latitude to do what they wanted within the offense. (Blake had lots of latitude, but little talent to do anything with it. Przybilla had no role on offense other than setting picks, and he really never will or should.) When you have that many guy being limited to just a few roles, it's going to lead to a less dynamic offense.

    This year a lot of training wheels should be coming off.

    Sergio and Frye are gone.

    Andre Miller almost certainly won't be on any kind of training wheel treatment. That guy's the real deal, and will be working to his full capabilities from the opening tip until the final game of the year.

    In his first preseason game last year, Rudy showed he could dominate the offense with his passing, even going so far as to dish out of the post. (Did Rudy post up once during the regular season?) With a pretty nice summer in Europe, I have to believe he's going to get more reigns this year. Moreso, our bench looked really stagnant and limited in the playoffs last year. It had to open up Nate's eyes that we need to get more out of Rudy, even if it means getting less out of Outlaw.

    Batum has shown a lot on the French team. I'm sure it isn't escaping Nate's notice. Oden is going to be more involved in the offense just by virtue of having Miller on the team.

    Webster will be getting more latitude in the few minutes he gets. Bayless will probably be stuck where he is, on the bench.

    I found that post to be a really instructive history lesson of the 2008-09 season's offense, but I don't know that it really defines how this team does going forward. As the training wheels start to come off, we should see a lot less stagnation and a lot more imagination.

    One last thought--there are some dads who leave those training wheels on too long, overly protective of seeing their kid come to harm on the bike. The dad fails to realize he's actually limiting his kid, underestimating what he really can do, and impeding progress. Nate certainly isn't there right now, but the biggest story of this season is how much he is willing to loosen the reigns on these guys like he did with Roy and Aldridge. When I look back at the bike wreck of Zach Randolph's career, though, I tend to prefer seeing those wheels on a little too long than too short.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  11. ABM

    ABM Happily Married In Music City, USA!

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    This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    ...prior to his dinner meeting with the Blazer brass. :lol:

    From: Blazers Edge
     
  12. BlazerWookee

    BlazerWookee UNTILT THE DAMN PINWHEEL!

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    CAUTION: SAFE FOR WORK.

    Dangit...
     
  13. Eastoff

    Eastoff But it was a beginning.

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    this already has a thread
     
  14. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    MOD POWER ACTIVATE!

    Uh, so is there anything in here worth merging, or can I delete this thread and point you to the "Great Analysis of Blazer Offense" thread?
     
  15. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    I'd say delete it, but merging is also possible.
     
  16. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    When in doubt, merge. Deletions eventually become viewed as selective enforcement. :cheers:
     
  17. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    Only when we're deleting your threads PG! :devilwink:
     
  18. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    Hey, I've moderated before. Just a tip. :devilwink:
     
  19. Erroneous Subterfuge

    Erroneous Subterfuge meh

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    Maybe you should make a poll and put it to a vote. I wouldn't do anything until we can all agree on the best course of action.
     
  20. PapaG

    PapaG Banned User BANNED

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    Re: This Is Must Be What Andre Miller Boned Up On...

    Is that unanimous consent or a mere consensous?
     

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