<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch_Melo_061 @ Apr 28 2006, 07:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bigmo there's no use. Mavsfan will debate everything and anything.</div>I know, but so will I... :nasty:
Well I think Parker puts more effort on defense than Iverson. Also I think it is easier for players to overpower Iverson than Parker based on their body frame. If Parker was that bad of a defender than teams would find a way to exploit it in the playoffs off of screeens and etc. So far I think Parker's defense on Bibby has been great and I don't see that changing but you never know.
As usual, I'll start off with their overall skill. Iverson has a bigger array of offensive moves. While Parker is limited to open jumpshots and 5 footers, Iverson can create a shot from anywhere. He can hit deeper shots, and upon watching him play, now uses the stop-and-pop 18 footer as his primary weapon. Iverson has a better jumpshot from anywhere on the floor, and when at the rim, is still the better finisher. I don't care what anyone says, but while Parker is finishing at 6'2, Iverson is finishing at about 5'10. His ability to finish at that height is still unparalleled. Back up? Allen Iverson had 20 more three point play attempts this year, a credit to his ability to finish at the rim under duressDefensively, Iverson is a better defender in the passing lanes, but Parker is a better one on one defender. However, Parker's defense still isn't anything to marvel at, so I find it hard to use that as a valid point. Yes Parker is a respectable one-on-one defender, but Iverson is a great off ball defender. That almost equals it for me, however Parker gets a slight edge.In terms of clutchness, while Tony Parker shoots 4% higher with 10 seconds left, game on line, he has only made half as many late game FGs. You can assert this to Tim Duncan's presence, and how Tony Parker still isn't the main late game player on his own team.So, Iverson has more skill, and still performs better in games. From there, both are equal defenders, passers, and late game players. It simply comes down to this: Iverson has mor ability as a basketball player than Tony Parker.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 28 2006, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Better scorer: IversonMidrange shooter: ParkerOutside shooter: IversonOverall defense: ParkerBetter slasher: ParkerBetter Passer: IversonMore Experience: Parker. 2 Championships isn't enough and almost a 3rd if it weren't for Fisher? Shaq only dunks and he is considered the most dominant player ever. So why is good shot selection held against Parker? He is playing the way the coach wants him to play and it is very disciplined. If he wanted to he could score 30 a game but it wouldn't be for the good of the team.</div>what? Parker's a better slasher? you have to be kidding. You're going against the best slahser of our era. Iverson also has a better midrange.And tony Parker has been known for CHOKING in the playoffs, he was simply a role player on those championship teams.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ Apr 29 2006, 01:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>what? Parker's a better slasher? you have to be kidding. You're going against the best slahser of our era. Iverson also has a better midrange.And tony Parker has been known for CHOKING in the playoffs, he was simply a role player on those championship teams.</div>Wow man you have some bias in this. Iverson getting to the paint at will doesn't mean he is finishing. Iverson has never been close to cracking 50% from the field so he is not finishing well. Parker is stronger and is much smarter at finishing over or going around big men which is tough to do at a 55% clip. Also read the thread and it says who is better THIS YEAR? Parker is hitting the mid range more than people think. That used to be his weakness.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart @ Apr 29 2006, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As usual, I'll start off with their overall skill. Iverson has a bigger array of offensive moves.</div>Shaq is also limited in offensive moves but the ones he does are unstoppable. If no one can stop Parker's moves than it doesn't matter if Parker is one dimensional on offense.
Yes but that's totally different. Shaq is a Center. As a Center, his primary role is to score in the post. In his prime, Shaq not only dunked on guys, but he could finish in any situation, and had a vast array of offensive moves. He had a great jump hook, great 6 foot floater, and was able to get any shot of in the interior. For a post player, Shaq had immense skill.As a perimiter player, which is what Iverson and Parker are, you are expected to be able to score from the perimiter. This is when overall skill comes in, this is when it matters to be able to score in different ways. Does one's skill as a basketball player mean nothing?Don't get me wrong, I think Dwayne Wade is a Top 10 NBA player, who will be neck and neck with LeBron for years to come. He is a primarily attacking player. Don't get me wrong, I think Tony Parker is the 5th best PG in the NBA, even though he is primarily an attacking player. However, at the same time, what defines greatness is the ability to do more. In all these cases, whether it be DWade vs. LeBron, Kobe vs. Clyde Drexler, Parker vs. Iverson, Steve Nash vs. Jason Kidd, I am simply going to look at their ability as a basketball player, their clutch play, and if their situations are similar, I'll look at their ability to winToo many times a player will land on a great team, and be overrated over another player simply because of one's situation. Here, Parker has been blessed. You really can't compare winning over the past few years between the two, because Parker is one one of the greatest all around teams in a long time. Iverson has been blessed with an overrated swingman, and aging power forward, and a center who plays about as tough as a constipated old china-man. You can't use that too muchIverson simply has better skill, and he scores in many more ways. I'm not saying Parker is a bad player by any stretch, actually I think he is vastly underrated, but Iverson simply has more skill as a basketball player. If you honestly want to look at in game performance, Iverson averages 33 and 7 to Parker's 18 and 6. Yes Iverson has the ball alot, but this year Tony Parker was actually San Antonio's primary option to handle, run the offence, and shoot. And look at Iverson's teammates compared to Parker's, it's a joke the talent differenceIn conclusion, Iverson and Parker are almost equall in every aspect, except skill. That's the deciding factor right there: Iverson is simply more skilled. If Parker could pass, defend, and paly better late than Iverson, I'd give him the nodd, but it's too close in all those categories, so one takes Iverson
Iverson has many skills but I couldn't say one part of his game he is unguardable and even he is if he doesn't finish consistently than what's the point of that fancy move? Parker has many ways of finishing around the basket. That is where he is most effective so that is his role. Parker doesn't do many things on offense but what he does he is more effective than any of Iverson's moves.
Iverson is a better finisher than Parker once he gets into the lane. Parker is better at finishing layups, and shooting the floater, but Iverson is better at pulling up in the lane. Iverson also has the jumphook and running hook in the lane. It's a slight edge, but also consider Iverson's height, and his ability looks all that more impressive
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 28 2006, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow man you have some bias in this. Iverson getting to the paint at will doesn't mean he is finishing. Iverson has never been close to cracking 50% from the field so he is not finishing well. Parker is stronger and is much smarter at finishing over or going around big men which is tough to do at a 55% clip. Also read the thread and it says who is better THIS YEAR? Parker is hitting the mid range more than people think. That used to be his weakness.Shaq is also limited in offensive moves but the ones he does are unstoppable. If no one can stop Parker's moves than it doesn't matter if Parker is one dimensional on offense.</div>Do you honestly believe that Iverson isn't a good finisher around the rim? I mean, seriously... he is one of the best finishers around the rim and in the paint there is in this league, and at his size that is incredible. Also, KMart provided an excellent statistic that shows that Iverson is just as good, if not better, than Parker at finishing around the rim: Iverson has 20 more three-point play attempts this season compared to Parker.Parker is shooting 55% from the field, whereas Iverson is shooting around 42-45%, but the difference in that percentage does not necessarily mean that Parker is a better finisher than Iverson. That would be a valid conclusion if both players only penetrated all season long and did not take a single jump shot, but that isn't the case. The big difference in the FG% between the two players can be attributed to two simple reasons:1. Iverson takes more shots, more jumpers, and simply mixes up his offensive moves more than Parker does... Parker shoots jumpers as well, but his main offensive move is penetration, not his jumper.2. The presence of the talent level around Parker (i.e. Duncan down low, Ginobili and Bowen out on the wing) opens the game up more for Parker, thus allowing him to penetrate more consistently without being double-teamed.Also, as for your statement in the above quote ("Parker is hitting the mid range more than people think. That used to be his weakness."), let's examine that assertion more closely, shall we?The following statistics are courtesy of 82games.com:While Parker did indeed shoot near 55% from the field this season, the breakdown in his field goal percentage for the following three categories show that his offense is predicated more on lay-ups than on jumpers, and that he isn't as good of a shooter and hasn't improved his shooting has much as you say and/or believe.The three categores are All FGA, 2-point jumper, and 3-point jumper. He shot 39.9% on 2-point jumpers, compared to Iverson's 41.0% ... not a huge difference, but Iverson has the edge there despite shooting more shots. Parker shot 26.1 on 3-point jumpers, compared to Iverson's 34.1%. Clearly the edge goes to Iverson.Now, before you say anything, the point of that wasn't to show who was the better shooter, etc., it was to show you that Parker does not shoot as high of a percentage from mid-range than you seem to believe he does, and if you think he is "hitting the mid-range jumper more than people think" and that this "used to be his weakness," improving to the previously mentioned percentages isn't all that great, now is it?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 28 2006, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Iverson has many skills but I couldn't say one part of his game he is unguardable and even he is if he doesn't finish consistently than what's the point of that fancy move? Parker has many ways of finishing around the basket. That is where he is most effective so that is his role. Parker doesn't do many things on offense but what he does he is more effective than any of Iverson's moves.</div>I honestly didn't understand the first sentence of the above quote. What exactly are you trying to say? That no one facet of Iverson's game is "unguardable" and Parker's is? If that is the case, you have absolutely got to be kidding me! If you think that Parker is more unguardable than Iverson, then I'm begging you to pass me what you're smoking!And if you think that Parker's penetration is way more effective than any of Iverson's moves, then I really don't know what to say... Now, it could arguably be "more efficient" than anything Iverson does, but it certainly isn't more effective than anything Iverson does.But then you have to look at WHY... and that answer is simple, because the talent surrounding Parker is far more superior than the talent surrounding Iverson, and that opens up the game more for Parker and make's his life a whole lot easier. Believe me, if you surrounded Iverson with that kind of talent and he had the ability to play solely one-on-one 95% of the time, he'd be almost as efficient as Parker is...EDIT: Oh, and I still don't see any support for the belief that Parker is a better defender than Iverson other than solely looking at Parker's two games against Bibby in the playoffs. Both Parker and Iverson aren't good man-to-man defenders, and Iverson's dangerous ability to play the passing lanes is the main reason I give him the edge over Parker in the defense department.
So since Iverson gambles on defense more that gives him advantage over Parker? Gambling on defense is part of Iverson's flaw on defense. Getting steals is fun but if you miss it is tough for a team to recover after that. Parker's teammates have nothing to do with Parker's great finishes around the rim. Parker is stronger and therefore can take hits and it won't effect him. Parker is not the go to guy on San Antonio like Iverson is for the Sixers. There is a reason for that. The Spurs have Duncan and without Duncan Parker would be scoring a bunch more. Those 3 point plays only shows how many times Iverson attacks the rim rather than at the percentage rate that Iverson finishes 3 point plays. As for the defense Parker is stronger and puts more effort on defense. What else can I say about defense other than that? Not that Parker is a great defender but stays with his man.
[quote name='mavsfan1000' post='49810' date='Apr 28 2006, 10:26 PM']So since Iverson gambles on defense more that gives him advantage over Parker? Gambling on defense is part of Iverson's flaw on defense. Getting steals is fun but if you miss it is tough for a team to recover after that.[/quote]I never said that he is a better defender because he gambles the passing lanes... I regard him as better defensively simply because he plays the passing lanes much, much better than Parker, and there man-to-man defense is essentially just as bad when compared to each other. Add to that the fact that Parker has a better team defense around him to mask whatever defincies he may have, and that is why I give Iverson the edge on the defensive end. Once again, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Parker does indeed finish around the rim very very well, I never denied that... however, what I'm saying is due to the presence of Duncan, Ginobili, etc., it makes it easier for him to penetrate because teams cannot consistently help out on his penetration and leave the other guys because they will make them pay. Their presence alone opens up the lane for Parker.Wait, so the three-point plays only show how many times he attacks the rim? No... they show how many times he attacks the rim, gets fouled, AND FINISHES, whereas you are saying Iverson is not a good finisher around the rim. I'm not trying to prove that Iverson is a better finisher than Parker, etc., I'm just showing you that your belief that Iverson is not a good finisher is far-fetched. Anybody who watches Iverson play can tell you he is one of the top finishers around the basket there is in the NBA... there is absolutely no denying that. Wait, and Iverson doesn't stay with his man? You know, I don't believe Parker is that much stronger than Iverson is... they have a similar body type. Parker is heavier and a little taller, but you are talking as if Parker is twice as strong as Iverson is, and that certainly isn't the case.I'm telling you that they are both equally bad on defense, but I give the slight edge to Iverson. I don't know how "good" Parker would look on the defensive end if he had a porous team defense like Iverson has on the Sixers.I watch both the Spurs and the Sixers on a consistent basis, so my stance on this is not going to change, and from what I've seen I really don't expect your stance to change either. I'm just trying to point out how ridiculous your assertions about Iverson are... and going back to the Nash/Sixers debate we had a while ago, I can tell that you are plain and simply an Iverson hater.[quote name='nba dogmatist' post='49790' date='Apr 28 2006, 10:17 PM']we need to add something to this month's award ceremony: longest poster. Hands down goes to BigMo.[/quote] Yeah... I just get carried away at times, and I like to cover all the bases to refute the other person's belief. Not to mention all the damn quotes just make it look that much longer.
I am not a Iverson hater. That is bullsh** and you know it. Just because I'm not his biggest fan doesn't mean I hate him. I call it like I see it and blaming Iverson's lack of success on his teammates is getting old. He is equally as guilty as the rest. Iverson would not win championships with the spurs because.1. He is a poor defender2. He doesn't shoot a high enough percentage3. He takes away touches from Manu and Duncan.EDIT: Parker is clearly stronger than Iverson. Parker is able to take punishment at the rim and they bounce off him while Iverson would fall down and have to shoot free throws.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 29 2006, 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I am not a Iverson hater. That is bullsh** and you know it. Just because I'm not his biggest fan doesn't mean I hate him. I call it like I see it and blaming Iverson's lack of success on his teammates is getting old. He is equally as guilty as the rest. Iverson would not win championships with the spurs because.1. He is a poor defender2. He doesn't shoot a high enough percentage3. He takes away touches from Manu and Duncan.</div>How is it bullsh**? I have seen you bash each and every part of his game, and not once have I seen you say anything positive about him. You tell me how somebody doesn't look at you as a hater when that is all you have to say...Also, how could you say that Iverson wouldn't win a championship if he were with the Spurs, or if he had a supporting cast like Parker does... he's never had one, so you can't say he couldn't do it. Iverson does deserve his share of blame, but not as much as the front office, which is the biggest reason why he has never, with the exception of one or two years, had a supporting cast around with which he could be successful. He is in the same situation as Kevin Garnett.And for your reasons, here are my response:1. I've already covered that in this thread.2. Like I've said before, the presence of Duncan, Ginobili, etc. opens up the game for Parker and allows him to shoot that high of a percentage. You put Iverson on the Spurs instead of Parker, and his shooting percentage will go up to around 50%.3. In case you have been living in the twilight zone, when Iverson's teammates are on, he looks to set them up. When he has players around him on the level of Duncan, Ginobili, etc., he doesn't look to score first. The hating on his "selfishness" is getting old. The guy averages 7 or 8 assists a night, and everybody comes up with excuses like "uh, well, he has the ball so much he should get that many!"And in case you didn't know, Iverson averages slightly more assists per 48 minutes than Parker does, so if you say he would take away touches from Timmy and Manu, then you have to also say Parker does the same, buddy.EDIT: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: Parker is clearly stronger than Iverson. Parker is able to take punishment at the rim and they bounce off him while Iverson would fall down and have to shoot free throws.</div>Um, that is quite wrong. Have you forgotten how Iverson attempted 20 more three-point plays than Parker did? If that doesn't show you that Iverson can finish with contact around the rim, absolutely nothing will. Iverson is easily top 3-5 in the league in creating contact and finishing around the rim.
.1 assist more. :lmao: Parker is bigger and stronger and a better teammate to play with. If you watched the spurs this year than you know Ginobili and Duncan haven't been the same players as in years past. Parker has been carrying that team for most of the season. It will be scary if they all play well in the playoffs though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 29 2006, 12:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>.1 assist more. :lmao: Parker is bigger and stronger and a better teammate to play with. If you watched the spurs this year than you know Ginobili and Duncan haven't been the same players as in years past. Parker has been carrying that team for most of the season. It will be scary if they all play well in the playoffs though.</div>Notice how I said "slightly" more, and yes, even if you consider it the same, then if you believe Iverson would take away touches than you have to say that Parker would take away touches.And yes, my friend, I do watch the Spurs play. I live in San Antonio...Also, everything you have said about why Parker is bigger and stronger, I have disproven. So, what's your next theory?It's blatantly obvious that you are quite frankly an Iverson hater, so you might as well man-up and admit it.
Nope try again. You did not prove that Iverson is just as strong as Parker. Parker's upper body is clearly more able to take hits. Not as strong as Wade but solid. Parker is bigger and you even said about that earlier on how great Iverson is despite his height. That is why Parker is a better finisher but you believe what you want to believe.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 29 2006, 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I am not a Iverson hater. That is bullsh** and you know it. Just because I'm not his biggest fan doesn't mean I hate him. I call it like I see it and blaming Iverson's lack of success on his teammates is getting old. He is equally as guilty as the rest. Iverson would not win championships with the spurs because.1. He is a poor defender2. He doesn't shoot a high enough percentage3. He takes away touches from Manu and Duncan.EDIT: Parker is clearly stronger than Iverson. Parker is able to take punishment at the rim and they bounce off him while Iverson would fall down and have to shoot free throws.</div>1. He is not far behing Parker, so you can stop trying to make that argument whenever you want.2. It's bc every defense in the league is keying in on him.3. You don't know that. He hasn't ever played with a guy like Duncan. If he knew he would win bc of it, i guarantee you he would sacrifice some of his looks for Duncan.Tony is not much stronger than Iverson, so once again, that is a pointless argument. To say that AI would not win a championship with the spurs is just plain IGNORANT.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 29 2006, 12:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>.1 assist more. :lmao: Parker is bigger and stronger and a better teammate to play with. If you watched the spurs this year than you know Ginobili and Duncan haven't been the same players as in years past. Parker has been carrying that team for most of the season. It will be scary if they all play well in the playoffs though.</div>he hasn't been "carrying" anyone. That team has so much talent. Even Duncan at less than 100% still gives you 18/11. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 29 2006, 01:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nope try again. You did not prove that Iverson is just as strong as Parker. Parker's upper body is clearly more able to take hits. Not as strong as Wade but solid. Parker is bigger and you even said about that earlier on how great Iverson is despite his height. That is why Parker is a better finisher but you believe what you want to believe.</div>okay, so parker can take a hit, but so can Iverson. Anything Tony can do, Allen can do better.Parker isn't a better finisher. He might have a better floater or whatever, but iverson is better at finishing at the basket.
Iverson is super skinny. He doesn't have the strength to finish around the rim. If he did he would crack to 50% but he couldn't do that with the Olympics either so I don't know how you build around Iverson. He doesn't shoot well from outside though he sure likes those shots.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 29 2006, 01:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nope try again. You did not prove that Iverson is just as strong as Parker. Parker's upper body is clearly more able to take hits. Not as strong as Wade but solid. Parker is bigger and you even said about that earlier on how great Iverson is despite his height. That is why Parker is a better finisher but you believe what you want to believe.</div>Have you honestly ever watched Allen Iverson play?You keep saying that Tony Parker is better able to take contact and finish around the rim... well, like KMart pointed out a long time ago, Allen Iverson had 20 more three-point play opportunities this season than Tony Parker did. Think about that for a second... you get a three-point play opportunity when you get fouled, and finish. That by itself shows that Iverson is atleast on the same level, if not better, than Parker is at finishing around the basket.Iverson is top 3-5 in this league in creating contact, drawing the foul, and finishing the play. There is absolutely no denying that. Parker is good, but not on the same level as Iverson in that aspect.And if you don't think that Iverson is able to take contact... well, then please explain to me how he's been able to survive in this league ten years throwing his body around.I seriously doubt that you've every actually watched Iverson play other than when the Sixers play the Mavericks, if even then, because everything you've been saying is based on things that the media said about his game three or four years ago.Again, it's obvious you're an Iverson hater... just man-up and admit it. I have never, ever seen you say one positive thing about him.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Apr 29 2006, 01:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Iverson is super skinny. He doesn't have the strength to finish around the rim. If he did he would crack to 50% but he couldn't do that with the Olympics either so I don't know how you build around Iverson. He doesn't shoot well from outside though he sure likes those shots.</div>Excuse me, but I pointed out earlier in this thread how Iverson shoots a better percentage on mid-range jumpers and three-point jumpers than Parker does, so if Iverson "doesn't shoot well" from outside, than you sure as hell can't claim that Parker is any better than him.EDIT: Oh, and by the way, Iverson is 165 pounds, and Parker is 177 pounds. So if Iverson is "super skinny," what does that make Parker?
