Dang. If you think cities like Detroit and Cleveland are experiencing "short-term negative impact" then we just fundamentally disagree. We're talking about entire communities just getting boarded up, and Mexican gangs having their choice of abandoned buildings to base their operations in. I'm not opposed to immigration law reform. I just think the way Arizona has gone about it is just too costly for the benefit they get out of it. It doesn't have to be this way. At some point people will come to their senses and realize that the choice is between: 1. amnesty combined with better border enforcement 2. destroying local economies by eviscerating them combined with better border enforcement Solution #2 is more politically popular right now because it's the morally right answer. People did illegal stuff, and they should pay the price. Solution #1 will eventually come in to favor when people realize that being morally right isn't always as important as doing what's most practical. Arizona is finally moving this mess forward.
NO, you got that all wrong Denny. We should arrest everyone that LOOKS like a pot smoker, unless they can prove don't have any pot on them.
No, YOU got it wrong. When pulled over for speeding, and there's a cloud of smoke and the cops find the pot, you get the punishment for it. See: Yellow Hummer, somewhere around Centralia.
Why the eff can't #1 happen with Arizona law? Or, more specifically, why can't these illegal immigrants currently in AZ trudge on down to the immigration office and say "Tarjeta verde, por favor?"
What exactly is the crime here, and who are the victims? Realize that people break laws all the time (like my jaywalking example, and now pot smoking). Isn't that a form of nullification of the law by The People? Seriously. These pot smokers are breaking the law. They're not doing it just once, but continually. Where's the outrage!
And I haven't seen a single local economy "eviscerated" by this law, though I have seen reports of people scared to leave their homes alone due to the illegal trespassers taking possession. And in general, being "legal" is good. Doing "illegal" things has negative impacts. Short- and long-term.
Uh I don't think you understand the law in Arizona. "IF someone looks like an illegal immgirant" they don't have to be breaking any laws. IE a pothead that isn't smoking, or speeding, just looks like a stoner, would be the RIGHT one.
Because there are currently limits on how many green cards are given, and you have to have family currently living in the US or already have a job lined up in the US.
No. But that's dodging the question. There's no victim in these "crimes" and people have certain Natural Rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, and those sorts of things). These Natural Rights trump government and artificial laws. Make sense?
Illegal Immigrants only pay 80% of their taxes and yet they go to our schools! They do jobs that poor Americans don't want to do for money and sub-livable wages so white people can eat cheap produce!
That's blatantly wrong. The "probably cause" cannot be "because they look like a hispanic person." Racial profiling is specifically forbidden.
So what is the "cloud of pot smoke" when it comes to checking people for papers? What correctly constitutes suspicion about a person being an illegal immigrant?
It's not dodging the question....I was responding to your "where's the outrage" in that much of my outrage at pot-smoking criminals (many of whom I enjoy reading on the board, here ) is on the pages of those marijuana threads. If "Natural Rights trump government and artificial laws", which laws are illegal ones? (Serious question). I mean, military members are trained on what constitutes a "legal" vs. "illegal" order. How am I as a citizen supposed to know which laws of our country are trumped by Natural Rights, and which aren't? More importantly, which laws are the police supposed to enforce? And if the law goes against the Natural Rights, why hasn't it been struck down?
Not yet. But that's the idea, isn't it? Make all illegals leave? Destroy the economy that sustains them, and if it happens to financially ruin some legal residents in the process, so be it. It won't happen overnight, or in the weeks between when the bill was passed and now. But give it two years. Arizona's economy is about to get turned on its head.
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf Just tell me, how would you have reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal immigrant?
As I understand it (not being there), it's ensuring that documentation is asked for in cases where law enforcement is already talking to you. If you're pulled over for speeding and don't have your documents, that's not good for you. If you're loitering outside a Home Depot and they ask you for your ID and you don't have it, it's not good for you. If you break into someone's home and don't have documentation... I don't get the uproar. If racial profiling is prohibited, why are all of you aghast about this? The rights of Hispanic-looking citizens are already being looked after. Someone help me out, please. I'm trying not to be too obtuse, but this seems a lot more like "eff The Man" than any type of concern for people's safety or well-being.
Not sure. I detailed a couple of scenarios above. But since racial profiling is prohibited ("unreasonable"), what is there to worry about?
