Official LeBron to the Bulls thread

The real General Manager of the Bulls is Jerry Reinsdorf.
Jerry Reinsdorf is a basketball romantic who once compared the simplicity of owning his team to a coin operated business.

 

President Obama thinks LeBron James would look great in a Bulls uniform - ESPN Chicago
I like, I like. I'm excited to see what happens this offseason for the Bulls.

 

His article supported everything I said about teammates.

You should be aware of the Hollinger guidelines, I shouldn't have to explain everything to you. If you want a PER discussion, there is a reasonable expectation that you know the tiers.

I am aware of everything Hollinger has written. I didn't say the chart would be located there, nor is that necessary. That's common knowledge for him, like multiplying free throw attempts by 44% when calculating TS%.

 

Shape, it doesn't matter. LeBron needs more offense in this era to register 30 PER, it is self-correcting.

I actually prefer win shares.

 

LeBron didn't win a title last year, because Mo Williams clearly choked. Everyone knows it and he knows it. He's a foul call away from having a Game 7 at home, or two from a Finals appearance. So please don't give me that weak stuff. When Delonte West and Anderson Varejao also play below their regular levels that doesn't help anyone, for such a pathetically constructed team.

Jordan didn't have homecourt advantage early on in his career, because he was a lesser player. And he played like a lesser player until he got Scottie, and all those players that won 55 games without him. Jordan never had 22 consecutive playoff games at such a high level. Beware who you're crying about in the clutch.

When having a discussion about GOAT, several things must be considered. Like the fact that LeBron had his way with the best defense in the League various times. He doesn't have to be perfect, Jordan certainly choked in various games as an individual

What LeBron did against Orlando is something Jordan NEVER did early on. 29 PER that early in his career, against the #1 defense in the league. You need to listen to MikeDC, jordan took his lumps early. And 24.5 PER for 42 minutes a game is not some off series, it is right in line with Jordan's normal deviations.

Uh a sample size of 2 games is not the end-all be all either, even worse. Let's be honest though, he was bricking jumpers, not shying from driving to the rim with his 12 free throws a game (above his playoff average). Hollinger wrote about how bad his jumpshots were on only one day's rest. It clearly was the elbow, but even that doesn't drag LeBron down to ringless Jordan's level.

There's that game 7 against one of the greatest defenses of all time, at age 23. Plenty of clutch moments, such as Detroit. If you're going to focus on just elimination games LeBron has easily outplayed Jordan according to a recent basketball-reference analysis.

Kobe has an 81 point game, so? Full throttle doesn't matter, it is prone to issues with sample size.

I don't think subjective scales matter, because they have agendas.

 

Lebron didn't really play up to his standards last year in the close-out game. 8-20 for 25 points. He never scored less than 35 in the rest of his series. Feel free to share that eliminate game analysis...

Jordan never had his mentality questioned. Jordan never gave up. You don't seem to get that. That is more important than minor PER differences across eras. You think one point of PER may be magical but to many people MJ's 22-0 with the home court advantage and Lebron's 7-2 record is a lot more telling. Epecially considering this is two playoffs in a row being knocked out this way.

You seem really hung up on comparing Lebron at age 25 and under to Jordan at age 25 and under. Jordan isn't the GOAT because of what he did at ages 25 and under. He is goat because of what he did from 27-34. Hypothetically, if you are tied with MJ at age 25 or even a bit ahead (and someone that quits can't be), you are WAY BEHIND.

 

LeBron James had his best playoff game ever against the Magic, and the Cavs didn't win that night. Sorry but your theory is bad man.

How many playoff games have there been in the entire history of the NBA? Off the top of your head you probably don't know. But guess what, 1 of the top 10 of all time came in that Orlando series you're talking about, two that post-season ranks in the top ten, and he is #1 all time in win shares per minute. Jordan never had that much production in a playoff season, LeBron is in his own league. Anyone that complains about last year has a vague understanding of how he played. LeBron's elimination game performance against Orlando is one of the greatest of all time as well. So please drop that grudge.


And that is ignoring pace which benefits Mr. Jordan.

Unfortunately reality is not so dismissive of King in "clutch", "elimination", playoff games. I have exactly the link that addresses this.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=5605

LeBron has been in his prime only two years, and his name appears more already in these clutch situations.

All it tells is that Mo Williams was even worse this year than last year. From 13 PER to 12 PER, and of course he was one of the worst defenders at his position. Hollinger regurgitates all this, adding how Jamison couldn't stop KG to save his life, etc.

It is funny though, that a guy that plays in 20 playoff games before age 25 is suddenly a more clutch player (LeBron is at 70 already). A man who isn't even the defender LeBron is at his peak, nor the offensive player during the playoffs.

Jordan quit on the Bulls twice, and against the Knicks. That doesn't make Jordan look better he indeed lacked desire.

I respect Jordan but I'm not chained by loyalty to the Bulls like you. I like the Lakers, I'm not even a Cavs fan. LeBron is simply more athletic than Jordan, it isn't his jumper that is dropping 30+ PER a night. He has more upside and he entered the league sooner, and Jordan won a title at age 28. Everything about LeBron is unprecedented, especially in this more athletic era (larger pool of talent, superior perimeter competition at the top for example, International game).

LeBron is way ahead of Jordan at this point. It is impossible for him to be ahead Career-wise because he has played in only 7 seasons. But certainly entering the league 3 years earlier, and not retiring for two years in his prime will vault him ahead of Jordan probably (and in the media this will occur around title 2 or 3 I estimate). The Cavs aren't winning 55 games without him.

 

How is 8-20 shooting and 25 points Lebron's greatest game ever? Or are you stating that because he was great in a different game and the Cavs lost that it doesn't matter if he had a relatively poor game when the Cavs lost and got eliminated?

 

Joke argument, he shouldn't be in an elimination game on the road to start off with. But if we want to look at an elimination game on the ROAD, against the best defense in the league Jordan doesn't stack up to LeBron. Defensively The 2008 Celtics are quite superior to the 80's Pistons. Detroit would only rank fourth at best in 2008.

You are backed into a corner. If you count elimination games, Jordan is inferior. Take a look at the link next time dude, this stuff doesn't grow on trees. If you take into account the entire series Jordan is inferior, there's no way to support your thesis.

Are you saying Maurice played at Scottie's level? Maybe if he had Scottie in game 1, he would have won Game 7, ever thought about that?

You have no argument, the numbers aren't in your favor so you blindly blame LeBron against Orlando. He dominated Orlando in the clutch as well. So Game 1 doesn't count, only game 6's? Lol what a joke position. Game 5 was an elimination game you don't even know what you're trying to argue.

He had 5 elite games in that series, and one ok one (Jordan frequently had 1 or 2 average games). He won two games by himself, saved the Cavs on a clutch shot, prevented a close out in a dominant manner, and had the most dominant playoff game ever but his team choked.

Jordan was trash using your same criteria. He never performed at such a high level in multiple elimination games, or against this kind of defense. You're applying a LeBron standard, not the lesser, Jordan one.

LeBron did it against the #1 Defense.

The people ahead:

Barkley vs 13th defense.

Jordan vs 25th defense (Miami Heat, lol! Out of 27 total teams).

Barkley vs second defense, pace inflated.

VC vs 5th defense.

AI vs 18th defense.

Porter vs 7th defense

~Michael never had such an impressive game in the playoffs.


I just needed a link to show you the game he lost HCA to was not his fault. Nor is the series, and I have sufficiently shown that.

Sample size, LeBron's resume is complete so that is irrelevant. He has 25 games at 33 PER, only you would complain about that.

Sorry you have no understanding of statistics. LeBron has played in 14 games with 4.8 win shares. That destroys anything Michael Jordan did in any single playoff season.

Wake up call man, that means exactly the same thing.

Your criteria is ridiculous to start off with. You can not form any rational explanation why Game 5 doesn't count. So you're saying that if I don't win THREE elimination games in a row by myself, it doesn't count. How cute, because Jordan's name is only on their once. LeBron surpasses Jordan in the fake barometers you're using.

Maybe because they played better for one game? Gosh! What an idea?

It is bizarre that you think he should have been down 3-1. It is weird that you find it acceptable to play below LeBron's level throughout a series, if you simply show up Game 6.

Michael makes the list one time, how much clearer can I be? Your arbitrary measure of greatness is still exposed. LeBron's 45 against the Celtics' defense still counts, superior to the 80's Celtics.

Your game is over, if you go by that criteria Michael Jordan is inferior. If you go by playoff dominance Michael is inferior. 20 games to 70, I don't see players missing the post-season routinely, and playing worse, being hailed as superior players than LeBron.

I'm trying to understand your argument, and I've realized you have none.

Your opinion has zero value with no evidence.

You clearly don't remember how he played. LeBron has more defensive win shares at his peak. He is more dominant offensively in a single season. Playoffs, and combined win shares.

Yeah Shapecity did expose you, so did your fellow peer on the retirement part.

MJ said he lacked desire plenty of times, he talked about it in front of millions actually.

There were video cameras rolling and everything.

Interesting, so a 28 year old man didn't understand how to play the game of basketball? He only became the GOAT after he won, that must mean he was a moron before the first title.

Quite likely he was more talented before the rings, he just didn't have the cast. Like LeBron.

 

Actually, you got exposed. You thought Shapecity supported your argument and it did the opposite.

Really, and your opinion is the following:

Dude, you think win shares and PER are the holy grail so I didn't even bring up how Jordan won DPOY when he was Lebron's age. I'm sure this doesn't matter, right?

And with that, I'm done here. Find one other non-statistically based opinion besides yours from someone credible that Lebron is better than MJ at the same age and perhaps we can discuss something.