With 700 people on the ships, the ships had galleys. Kitchens. They had carving knives in the galleys. There were absolutely no guns on the ships.
I often carve food with a machete. I'm waiting for someone to explain to me if the goal was to deliver "humanitarian aid" to Gaza, why they just didn't dock in Egypt and have it transported via land?
I don't personally know if it was innocent in motive or not. None of my posts on the thread regard that. That said, I don't think the burden of proof is on the ship to show that it was innocent. The burden of proof is on the Israelis to show that it was smuggling contraband arms in, or on conspiracy theorists to prove that this was a set-up. Of course, I'm don't think a "set-up" is illegal...so even if it was, the Israelis were conned into doing something stupid.
I read about it last night, but not today. So after a day of searching every drawer and cabinet, did the Israelis find a machete stored away somewhere? As of the articles last night, no such weapon had been seen by the Israelis, either in use or stored away. As for why the world doesn't trust Israel to take care of the supplies and give them to the needy people, it's because they have blocked such transportation before. That's the whole reason the people need the supplies. Maxiep, I know you'll always defend Israel and the war Bush started to help Israel. You are probably motivated by religion, so you aren't going to change, so I will refrain from arguing with you. (A second reason might just be that you're a bulldog in an argument and just won't quit, so I'll save my time.)
My take is that Turkey is a moderate and democratic Muslim nation, not really an enemy to israel - more of an ally all along. This incident does not help that relationship... That there has been a blockade for some time is plenty of warning/notice to anyone that they're subject to being boarded, turned back, or even sunk if they try to run the blockade. It's clear the intent of the Turkish ships was to run the blockade. It's not very relevant that the boarding took place in international waters; it's not like this all happened off the coast of Texas in the Gulf of Mexico. maxiep's articles are proof enough for me that some of these ships are allowed to pass and their cargo distributed as aid. They're proof enough for me that some ships still try to bring in arms and are turned back. Oddly, no gunfight or killings in those incidents, eh? Brian's points are well founded. The GCs (it's plural!) do put strict guidelines on what a military force is allowed to do with civilians under their "care" but when a civilian attacks a soldier, the soldier may well fight back. Duh. A true aid ship's crew and passengers would not be armed and would not fight against such a boarding party. There is nothing resembling somali pirates in this, that argument is outright bogus. The Israellis were literally the nation's coast guard and/or navy, not some bunch of hoodlums out to kidnap people for ransom and sack ships for their cargo.
The "State of Israel"? What a joke. This is the same criminal organization that recently posed as 19 citizens from allies of Israel and savagely murdered a businessman in a Dubai hotel. Israel is a terrorist state and nothing more, and the US needs to cut ties with them and condemn them as such.
That's exactly what Israel is. They kidnap, they torture, but mostly they just like to kill Arabs. That's how they roll.
I suspect time, the logistics and transportation costs, in addition to the strong chance of being attacked and robbed on land would be factors. That and the fact that Israel has no legitimate right to board ships by force in International waters.
People hating Jews or Israel doesn't give Israel the authority to board a ship in international waters like pirates.
My message exactly. I consider myself an American, and one who is loyal to my country and it's citizens. But I support or agree with very few of the US Government's acts/attacks abroad. Born and raised in Lake Oswego, I obviously have many Jewish friends.
Either way, it's your obvious natural-born right to take whatever means you deem necessary to defend your life from armed invaders, no matter what "rules" a few countries made up 61 friggin' years ago in the pretense of civilizing war.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169 IDF: Global Jihad on flotilla By YAAKOV KATZ 06/01/2010 22:41 50 of Mavi Marmara passengers tied to global jihad network, refusing to identify themselves. Dozens of passengers who were aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship are suspected of having connections with global jihad-affiliated terrorist organizations, defense officials said on Tuesday, amid growing concerns that Turkish warships would accompany a future flotilla to the Gaza Strip. According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups. During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, at least nine foreign activists were killed during the navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which was trying to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip. The group of over 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash. The military is working to identify the passengers and is looking into the possibility that some of them have been involved in terror attacks. Some of them are apparently known Islamic extremists. “This is the group that was behind the violent lynch against the naval commandos,” a defense official said. “They came on board the ship prepared and after they had trained for the expected navy takeover.” Late Tuesday, there were reports that Issam al-Budur, Jordan’s consul in Israel, reached an agreement with Israel according to which another group of 124 detained flotilla activists would be taken by bus to Jordan and sent from there to their home countries. The detainees are Jordanian, Mauritanian, Moroccan, Kuwaiti, Pakistani, Indonesian and Syrian. Meanwhile Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned Israel not to test Ankara’s patience. “Turkey’s hostility is as strong as its friendship is valuable,” he said. “Israel in no way can legitimize this murder, it cannot wash its hand of this blood.” This comment, officials said, could signify a change in Turkish military posture in the event that another flotilla is dispatched to the Gaza Strip. One official said that the chances that Turkey would send navy ships were slim – due to its membership in NATO – but that the issue was of great concern. “This is a definite possibility that we need to prepare for,” a senior defense official said. The flotilla that arrived late on Sunday night comprised six ships, and another two ships, including the Rachel Corrie, are expected to attempt to enter Israeli waters in the coming days. Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, said that two vessels, one a cargo ship and another carrying about three dozen passengers, would arrive in the region late this week or early next week. “This initiative is not going to stop,” she said from the group’s base in Cyprus. “We think eventually Israel will get some kind of common sense. They’re going to have to stop the blockade of Gaza, and one of the ways to do this is for us to continue to send the boats.” Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen described the Rachel Corrie as Irish-owned and said it should be allowed to finish its mission, according to Reuters. The ship was carrying 15 activists, including a northern Irish Nobel Peace laureate. “The government has formally requested the Israeli government to allow the Irish-owned ship... to be allowed to complete its journey unimpeded and discharge its humanitarian cargo in Gaza,” Cowen told members of parliament in Dublin. Navy sources said that the ships sailing toward Gaza would be intercepted the same way the flotilla was stopped on Monday morning, although it had yet to be decided if the operation would be carried out by Shayetet 13, the navy’s commando unit. “We are tracking the ships and are under orders to stop them,” a top navy officer said. According to the sources, in a future operation, the navy would use more force. “We boarded the ship [the Mavi Marmara] and were attacked as if it were a war,” one officer said. “That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it were a war.”
There was a photo of the confiscated weapons in one of the articles I posted. You still didn't offer a reason for running the blockade. Again, they could have gone to an Egyptian port. Are you saying the Egyptians are anti-Palestinian? I defend Israel because I believe the Jews deserve a homeland so they're not subject to a second Holocaust. One side in this conflict wants to drive the other in the sea; the other side in this conflict agreed to a two-state solution. Also, Israel is one of two true democracies in the Middle East (the other being Iraq). I think democracies are worth supporting. As for being motivated by religion, it's a logical guess, but I know little if anything about religion. As for being a bulldog, that's probably true; when I think I'm right, I'm probably too agressive in stating my point. Thanks for the awareness lesson.
The ship was trying to run a blockade. That action implies guilt. We agree the Israelis were suckered into acting stupidly.
I was raised in LO, too. If you think Lake Oswego has a substantial Jewish community, I would say you have no idea what you're talking about.
This was in the 50's-70's, but many are still there. They own about half of the lakeside homes. maybe they just don't like to hang with you?
From Wiki: 2009 * A Palestinian Red Crescent aid worker was killed during the Gaza War by the Israeli military. 2010 * At least 20 people (mostly Turkish citizens) were killed during Israeli navy attack on humanitarian aid convoy for Gaza. Not the first time, nor the last I suspect.
