<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ May 28 2006, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If any of you watched the Sixers play this season, then the argument that AI had a capable team around him and they should have made the playoffs should be thrown out the window. That team was amazing offensively, but where they fell short was the defensive end. No one player can play defense for the entire team. Not Iverson, not 'Dre, not Artest, not Ben Wallace, nobody. Most of their defensive woes was Webber's fault. His lack of effort defensively contaminated the other players, and Dalembert (who was supposed to be our defensive anchor) made boneheaded play after boneheaded play. If Philly improves their defense even just a little bit, they would have made the playoffs.There was a stat during the Lakers-Suns series that summarized that up. The Sixers lost 15 games this season when they were up by atleast 7 within the final minute of the game.Defense was their problem, not offense. Unless you guys think that Iverson could have single-handedly played defense for the entire team (or any other player for that matter), then that argument doesn't fly.Also, yes, AI isn't the greatest man-to-man defender in the world, but he certainly isn't the worst. When it comes time to play defense (i.e. the final minutes of the game), he gets the job done. Like KMart pointed out in the other thread he made about things that annoy him, most superstar perimeter players do this, yet are regarded as good perimeter defenders. Yes, AI has his problems defensively, but he gets the job done when he needs to.Anyway... Duncan is the better player, plain and simple.</div>With that starting line up in the East, they still should have made the playoffs. They had a very poor season. And besides, the so callled better than Duncan player is on that team. We couldnt he have gotten them atleast an 8th seed??
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ May 28 2006, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>With that starting line up in the East, they still should have made the playoffs. They had a very poor season. And besides, the so callled better than Duncan player is on that team. We couldnt he have gotten them atleast an 8th seed??</div>Wow... it amazes me how hard it is for some people to understand a simple concept. I'm not only talking about you, but other people that I have tried explaining that concept to in previous discussions. Oh, and incase you didn't read the last sentence in my previous post, I said Duncan is the better player...The starting line-up was great ON PAPER, and I expected them to win 50 games with that starting line-up before the season. However, after the first 5 games, I knew we were in for a disastrous season.Let's take a look at the other four members of the line-up, shall we?Andre Iguodala - lacked aggressiveness on offense. When he looks to score, he can give us 20+ ppg a night, but he doesn't look to score often enough. Part of that problem is Iverson/Webber, but most of it is Iggy's. Iverson even called Iggy out on that. Look at what Iggy did after the ASG... the first few games he scored 20+ points ON THE SAME NUMBER OF TOUCHES. The difference was that he looked to score more, but that aggressiveness soon disappeared once again.Kyle Korver - pretty much a one-dimensional player. He can shoot with the best, but although he worked on diversifying his offensive game, he relies too much on Iverson to set him up. Defensively, I love his effort, but he lacks the athleticism to guard most SG/SF in the league.Chris Webber - his 20 and 10 season is deceiving. He shot a worse percentage than Iverson, and floated out on the perimeter. He said repeatedly that he doesn't want to shoot, and that he wants to help Iggy and Korver play off of him like Peja and Christie used to in Sacramento. But, what happened? He decided not to practice what he preached, and decided to sit at the elbow and shoot 42% on his jumpers. Defensively, he uses his knee as an excuse. Yeah, I know he isn't the athletic player he used to be, but he used his knee and lost athleticism as an excuse not to give ANY EFFORT on the defensive end of the floor... something that played a part in Dalembert's boneheaded plays, albeit a minor one.Samuel Dalembert - he played great for a while, but then he came back down to reality. He goaltends atleast twice a game, and picks up silly fouls. He has a low basketball IQ, and that was a main reason why he never became the defensive anchor we needed him to be. Hopefully he works out with Moses Malone in the offseason and comes back next year an improved player, but we'll see.As great a player as Duncan is, the fact of the matter remains is that even he could not have taken the Sixers squad to the playoffs, and even if he did, they wouldn't have been higher than the 7th seed.
Omg Duncan could easily take the sixers squad to the playoffs. He is the only player in the league that does it on both sides of the floor. Philadelphia's weakness was defense well he would fix that and keep close to what they were on the offensive end.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ May 28 2006, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow... it amazes me how hard it is for some people to understand a simple concept. I'm not only talking about you, but other people that I have tried explaining that concept to in previous discussions. Oh, and incase you didn't read the last sentence in my previous post, I said Duncan is the better player...The starting line-up was great ON PAPER, and I expected them to win 50 games with that starting line-up before the season. However, after the first 5 games, I knew we were in for a disastrous season.Let's take a look at the other four members of the line-up, shall we?Andre Iguodala - lacked aggressiveness on offense. When he looks to score, he can give us 20+ ppg a night, but he doesn't look to score often enough. Part of that problem is Iverson/Webber, but most of it is Iggy's. Iverson even called Iggy out on that. Look at what Iggy did after the ASG... the first few games he scored 20+ points ON THE SAME NUMBER OF TOUCHES. The difference was that he looked to score more, but that aggressiveness soon disappeared once again.Kyle Korver - pretty much a one-dimensional player. He can shoot with the best, but although he worked on diversifying his offensive game, he relies too much on Iverson to set him up. Defensively, I love his effort, but he lacks the athleticism to guard most SG/SF in the league.Chris Webber - his 20 and 10 season is deceiving. He shot a worse percentage than Iverson, and floated out on the perimeter. He said repeatedly that he doesn't want to shoot, and that he wants to help Iggy and Korver play off of him like Peja and Christie used to in Sacramento. But, what happened? He decided not to practice what he preached, and decided to sit at the elbow and shoot 42% on his jumpers. Defensively, he uses his knee as an excuse. Yeah, I know he isn't the athletic player he used to be, but he used his knee and lost athleticism as an excuse not to give ANY EFFORT on the defensive end of the floor... something that played a part in Dalembert's boneheaded plays, albeit a minor one.Samuel Dalembert - he played great for a while, but then he came back down to reality. He goaltends atleast twice a game, and picks up silly fouls. He has a low basketball IQ, and that was a main reason why he never became the defensive anchor we needed him to be. Hopefully he works out with Moses Malone in the offseason and comes back next year an improved player, but we'll see.As great a player as Duncan is, the fact of the matter remains is that even he could not have taken the Sixers squad to the playoffs, and even if he did, they wouldn't have been higher than the 7th seed.</div>Yeah, I understand that and all. But they still had a pretty good team. No matter how bad the defense was, they should have made the playoffs with a top 10 player in AI leading their team. Look at the Sonics last year. They were terrible defensively, they still managed didnt they? Tim Duncan led his mediocre Spurs to a title back in '03. Tmac led the Magic to the playoffs, Kobe led the Lakers team to the playoffs this year. And all those teams except maybe the Spurs were worse than this Philly team. So why couldnt he had given them atleast an 8th seed in the weakest conference the League has seen in a while? He is a star player, he should be able to go out there and get wins. It's called leadership. It wasnt leadership when AI and Webber showed up late on fan appreciation day. Guys like Duncan will get the nod easily here because they are winners, they have led their team to rings. AI has gotten close a few times but didnt even make the playoffs this year with his team, so he wont be in discussion.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ May 28 2006, 06:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Omg Duncan could easily take the sixers squad to the playoffs. He is the only player in the league that does it on both sides of the floor. Philadelphia's weakness was defense well he would fix that and keep close to what they were on the offensive end.</div>I doubt that, especially the Duncan of this year. He was bothered all year by plantar faciitis, and he "held back" a little during the season, which allowed Tony Parker to have his career season.Are you saying that either of these line-ups would have made it to the playoffsG - Salmons/OllieSG - IguodalaSF - WebberPF - DuncanC - DalembertORPG - Salmons/OllieSG - Korver/IggySF - Iggy/KorverPF - DuncanC - Webber/DalembertAgain, some of those look good on paper, which was the case with the squad with Iverson, but they wouldn't be able to execute much better offensively or defensively than the squad with Iverson did.
^That is easily a playoff team. Great offensively and Duncan would bring lots of help defensively. They would get like the 5th seed with that team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ May 28 2006, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I understand that and all. But they still had a pretty good team. No matter how bad the defense was, they should have made the playoffs with a top 10 player in AI leading their team. Look at the Sonics last year. They were terrible defensively, they still managed didnt they? Tim Duncan led his mediocre Spurs to a title back in '03. Tmac led the Magic to the playoffs, Kobe led the Lakers team to the playoffs this year. And all those teams except maybe the Spurs were worse than this Philly team. So why couldnt he had given them atleast an 8th seed in the weakest conference the League has seen in a while? He is a star player, he should be able to go out there and get wins. It's called leadership. It wasnt leadership when AI and Webber showed up late on fan appreciation day. Guys like Duncan will get the nod easily here because they are winners, they have led their team to rings. AI has gotten close a few times but didnt even make the playoffs this year with his team, so he wont be in discussion.</div>Again, the whole thing goes back to the defensive side of the floor. They lost 15 games where they had a 7 point lead within the final minute... they win atleast half those games, and they are in the playoffs, possibly the sixth or seventh seed.If you had watched those games, you would know that they lost because for some unknown reason, Mo Cheeks decided that Webber and Salmons should be the closers instead of Iverson... something that I'm still scratching my head at.And please don't tell me you actually think McGrady has more leadership than Iverson... seriously. A guy that has never made it out of the first round? :HAHAHA: Kobe and AI are equal in the leadership department in my eyes.And I still think you are missing the fact that I said Duncan is the better player...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ May 28 2006, 06:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^That is easily a playoff team. Great offensively and Duncan would bring lots of help defensively. They would get like the 5th seed with that team.</div>Which line-up? Or are you talking about both of them?The first one I think would be horrible. The second one would be a .500 ball club in my eyes, but nothing spectacular.
Tmac still led the Magic to a playoff birth when their roster was beyond sh*t. Iverson didnt do that this year even though he probably had an above average team to work with. Im just using Mac as an examle.Im not going to get into this because Im not a 6ers fan, but they point is that Iverson should have been able to lead his team to the playoffs this year. He didnt, so he wont be in this discussion with a great like Duncan who has 3 Finals MVP's.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ May 28 2006, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Tmac still led the Magic to a playoff birth when their roster was beyond sh*t. Iverson didnt do that this year even though he probably had an above average team to work with. Im just using Mac as an examle.</div>Yeah... I guess when T-Mac led those two Magic teams to the playoffs, it was better than how Iverson led five mediocre teams (leaving out the 2001 Finals club) to the playoffs and some beyond the first round, right? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Im not going to get into this because Im not a 6ers fan, but they point is that Iverson should have been able to lead his team to the playoffs this year. He didnt, so he wont be in this discussion with a great like Duncan who has 3 Finals MVP's.</div>Once again, let me repeat that I have already said that this is a horrible comparions because of the contrasting styles of their games, and that Duncan IS THE BETTER PLAYER. I just had a problem with some of the ridiculous reasoning used against Iverson from various people who are still relying on media stereotypes about his game from three/four years ago instead of actually watching him and the Sixers play the entire season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ May 28 2006, 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah... I guess when T-Mac led those two Magic teams to the playoffs, it was better than how Iverson led five mediocre teams (leaving out the 2001 Finals club) to the playoffs and some beyond the first round, right? Once again, let me repeat that I have already said that this is a horrible comparions because of the contrasting styles of their games, and that Duncan IS THE BETTER PLAYER. I just had a problem with some of the ridiculous reasoning used against Iverson from various people who are still relying on media stereotypes about his game from three/four years ago instead of actually watching him and the Sixers play the entire season.</div>We were talking about this year. I just used the TMac one as an example.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Watch basketballIn terms of clutch play, I'm not going to lie, Iverson is truly special here. However, in the past three years, 10 seconds left or less, down by a point or tied, Iverson has shot 40%. Duncan on the other hand? 47%.In the playoffs, both up their games considerably. Both have set records. Both have had moments of glory. I give it a draw here, but it could go either way</div> Duncan has it easier playing in the post compared to AI shooting jumpers and driving into 4 people to get a layup.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ May 28 2006, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, Ginobili had a poor year and was injured a lot, but yet they still finished at the #1 seed in the West. AI had plenty of talent on that team. A past-star PF who can still shoot the ball and score points, an athletic Guard who can get you easy points, one of the top shooters in the game, and a defensive guy at Center. And yet, with that team, they dont even make the playoffs in the East!!! How many titles does AI have? 0. Duncan has 3 and was obviously the leader of all because he won Finals MVP for all 3 of 'em. He led that team in 2003 to a champonship didnt he? With young guys who didnt really contribute in Parker and Ginobili, an old David Robinson that couldnt do much. For chris sakes, the 2nd best player was Stephen Jackson. Explain that, why dont ya? And also Duncan is the best player in the post today, fundamentally. And he has been for a while, well maybe Shaq, but this year he has been more dominate than Shaq in the post. Duncan plays great defense too, AI gets steals so people think he is great there. Well guess what, he sucks at man to man defense. He couldnt hold a flower pot to under 10 points. Duncan on the other hand can lock you down. Its obvious you only picked AI because Duncan isnt "exciting". And it shows your basketball IQ too.</div> This is a thread on who you prefer CB4, and part of the reason I prefer AI is because he is more exciting but that's not the entire reason. Don't say David Robinson didn't do much he was the driving force of the team. Do you honestly think that Tim Duncan has accomplished all he has accomplished by himself, that is what you seem to be posting. I never argued with you that Tim Duncan isn't hte leader of his team but just to take an example: last years finals the Spurs would not have been able to take out the Pistons if it weren't for Parker and Ginobli's forces. After Duncan and Parker/Ginobili they still have a really ballanced team. After AI, Chris Webber, and Iguadola there team isn't nearly as balanced a team as the Spurs do. Even statistically, with everything but rebounds AI is dominant and w/ duncan's size it's not a big shock that he's good at defence. Also don't insult my Bball IQ you just sound like a loser.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ May 24 2006, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There was a discussion over at RB of whos overrated which turned to Iverson against Duncan.Some of the arguements they used for Iverson--No supporting cast-Better defender-7 assists for 2 seasons-Duncan has a better team-Duncan played with superstars like Robinson leading to his 3 championshipsSo what are your takes on this debate, I was supporting Duncan.</div>Both of them are not overrated they are both as good as said even better. And you can't compare them because they play diff positions how can you compare that? If I was starting a franchise I would probably pick Duncan just because he is a big guy hard to find great big guys. But I don't see how you can compare those AI, and Duncan
