Payton had LESS help. He had Shawn Kemp. Whupee. Payton was a better offensive scorer. He was a better defender. He was a great passer, and good ball distributer. He wasn't as flashy as Nash was, but why would he need to be that flashy? He got the job done. He almost won an NBA Championship 4 times, and he went to the NBA Finals twice. Nash has never any team past the WCF.
Well, I guess you would consider Nash's prime right now. Both are great play makers. Its hard to choose, because one player has one they better than the other, and so on. Nash's defense doesnt come anywhere near Payton's. They bot have good passing skills. But Nash gets the edge on passing. Ever since he became a Sun, he decided to be a better player. But over all I would pick Payton. Defense is more of a lost tallent in the NBA now, I would take defense over a passer any day
I'll take Payton every day of the week. His defense and Nash's were essentially opposite (Nash is a very weak defender, Payton was DPOY), Nash is a better passer but not by a lot, and their scoring is about even.
Their scoring ability is about even, but who scored more in their respective careers so far....The Glove, by about 4 points... But really if you look at individual seasons GP beats him down in points. Not by a lot, but by enough.
Gary Payton, without question. Nash is a solid point guard, and deserving of his two MVP awards, but Payton was a two-way player. As others have said, Payton was just as good offensively (overall) as Nash is, yet his defense was so much better than Nash's defense is right now. Payton was the only guard to win the DPOY award...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AirBlaze @ May 30 2006, 06:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Payton had LESS help. He had Shawn Kemp. Whupee.</div> Kemp was one of the most dominant players in the league for a few years. He isn't looked back on fondly because of his later years, but he was an absolute beast. The sonics also had Detlef (not going to try and spell his surname), one of the best utility players around. Nate McMillan was a great guard too, and Kendal Gill contributed on scoring. Don't pretend like Seattle wasn't loaded with talent.
GP without a question. Was an absolute nightmare for opposing teams on both sides of the ball. he could create plays, score, run an offense amazingly, and I love his backing down move on the low post. Not to mention his defense, they didn't call him the glove for nothing. Nash has been ridiculous but his defense is nowhere to be found.
Gary Payton, a point guard you can win a championship with. Better player on defense by far. The only thing Nash has on Payton is scoring honestly.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Payton was the only guard to win the DPOY award...</div>Didn't MJ win it as well?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diesel @ May 30 2006, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Didn't MJ win it as well?</div>Yeah... I meant to say Payton was the only point guard to ever win the award.There have been a few guards who have won the award. My mistake for the typo.
I take Gary Payton no problem? You want a simplified reason? DEFENSE. Nash probably struggles spelling the word defense while GP owns a Defensive Player of the Year trophy with his name on it. Not to mention Payton is one of the best post-up guards I have ever seen. Plus a guy that can run an offense, reward you for running, and also slow it down and still make plays happen scoring or passing the ball. He was the guy everyone had to look out for on offense whether he was shooting, posting, or passing. And he was also the guy that guarded the best perimiter player on the opposing team, and made them fear him. Nash is a great playmaker and he can shoot the ball, as well as make some incredible flip-up layups in the paint, but he can't play a lick of defense and he has a quarter of the "killer instinct" as Payton did. GP (prime) > Nash any day of the week.
Gary Paytonif u ever saw payton playing in his primeyou would pick GP alsoi mean payton was just unstoppablewouldve won a ring if it werent for jordan and the bulls
This is a joke. Nash has had 2 really good seasons. Payton was a star his whole career and almost won the Sonics a championship. He was a star defender, great scorer, great passer. No way Nash gets my vote here.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jun 7 2006, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is a joke. Nash has had 2 really good seasons. Payton was a star his whole career and almost won the Sonics a championship. He was a star defender, great scorer, great passer. No way Nash gets my vote here.</div>How could this be a joke?Nash has won 2 staright Mvps and is playing good nba basketball right now.Hes averaging a double day in and out and lead the suns to the wcf 2 years in a row.If you ask me Nash is one of the best pgs in NBA history right now.Hes one of the only pgs to win 2 staright MVP awards,some even can consider him better then stockton, but stocktons the greats pg of all time so thats no comparsion.Paytons a better scorer and defender, but that dosen't make him that much better then Nash.Nash can score 30 ppg per night if he really felt like it.instead he passes the ball to his teamates and makes his teamates better,THATS WHY HE HAS WON THE MVP 2 YEARS IN A ROW.Nash has been argubally the best player these past years.Lebron and Kobe led there teams to the playoffs with one man efforts, but Nash led his team to the playoffs without Amare stoudmire who brung alot to this team imo.Was bring in 40 points sometimes in the playoffs and was lighting up the score board and Nash still led his team without amare who was suppodsley making Nash better, but Nash still averaged double digit assist numbers and got another Mvp.Also if you ask me Nash is preaty damn clutch, remember last year against the Mavs when Nash single handley defeated the Mavs in game 6.Nash is a beast and is leading his day in out every season.Gary Payton had a better carrer then Nash and is better then Nash at his prime, but Nash has a chance to be a top 5 pg so don't even say this comparsion is a joke.Now why Payton was better then Nash at his prime?Payton put up crazy numbers,led his team to the finals and was good on both ends of the floor.He was argubaly one of the best pgs of all time and the best pg of his era with stockton.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 7 2006, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How could this be a joke?Nash has won 2 staright Mvps and is playing good nba basketball right now.Hes averaging a double day in and out and lead the suns to the wcf 2 years in a row.If you ask me Nash is one of the best pgs in NBA history right now.Hes one of the only pgs to win 2 staright MVP awards,some even can consider him better then stockton, but stocktons the greats pg of all time so thats no comparsion.Paytons a better scorer and defender, but that dosen't make him that much better then Nash.Nash can score 30 ppg per night if he really felt like it.instead he passes the ball to his teamates and makes his teamates better,THATS WHY HE HAS WON THE MVP 2 YEARS IN A ROW.Nash has been argubally the best player these past years.Lebron and Kobe led there teams to the playoffs with one man efforts, but Nash led his team to the playoffs without Amare stoudmire who brung alot to this team imo.Was bring in 40 points sometimes in the playoffs and was lighting up the score board and Nash still led his team without amare who was suppodsley making Nash better, but Nash still averaged double digit assist numbers and got another Mvp.Also if you ask me Nash is preaty damn clutch, remember last year against the Mavs when Nash single handley defeated the Mavs in game 6.Nash is a beast and is leading his day in out every season.Gary Payton had a better carrer then Nash and is better then Nash at his prime, but Nash has a chance to be a top 5 pg so don't even say this comparsion is a joke.Now why Payton was better then Nash at his prime?Payton put up crazy numbers,led his team to the finals and was good on both ends of the floor.He was argubaly one of the best pgs of all time and the best pg of his era with stockton.</div>I'm sorry, but the 2 MVP's dont really speak much for Nash as a better player. Everyone knows that Nash isn't in the same category as guys like Duncan, Russell, Bird, MJ, Magic, and better than guys like Stockton, Nash, even Payton because he has won 2 MVP's. First of all, people don't like to think about it this way, but explain Nash's sudden surge in his mid-career. Well, the explanation is that Nash is playing in D'Antoni's running system which involves running on offense, passing the ball many times and shooting. In the running system Nash draws alot of the defenders in, and then passes to players on the perimeter for a jump shot. That inflates Nash's apg stats too, because it is not hard to get 10 apg if you are the main pg of D'Antoni's system. You may not like to think of it this way, but it is D'Antoni and the Sun's winning the MVP's for Nash, not Nash himself. Nash is a key part, but obviously if he were still playing on the Mavs, he wouldn't be even in contention for MVP.Nash has led his team to the wcf two times in a row Please, Payton has led his Sonics to the WCF a ton, and has even played in the Finals against the Bulls. If it weren't for the Bulls, he would probably have some NBA gewelry by now. Better than Stockton? Holy crap. Only a 9 year old would think that. Stockton is the 2nd best pg ever. He led his Jazz through the 80's and the 90's and he has had the best court vision out of anyone, maybe. Nash has led his team to the playoffs, but they still have alot of talent. He obviously still has a lot more talent on his team then Lebron or Kobe had. Dont even pull that on me. He had Shawn Marion, a possible top 10 guy in the NBA, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Leandro Barbosa, Eddie House, James Jones, and Tim Thomas' outburst int he playoffs.This isnt even close. Payton has had HOF worthy numbers for like 12 years now. Nash has been great for 2 years now because of D'Antoni's system and you say he is better? Oh yeah, and brung isnt a word. GP brought equal scoring ability, better defense, better leadership, better rebounding, and better court vision too (Yeah thats right). He has averaged 8 apg 7 times. Nash has averaged 8 apg 3 times. Payton was great for more then a decade, Nash 2 seasons. This is a joke if anyone votes for Nash, because he is also the worst defender in the NBA right now. Payton won DPOY once and was on the Defensive team countless times. THe difference there is huge..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jun 7 2006, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry, but the 2 MVP's dont really speak much for Nash as a better player. Everyone knows that Nash isn't in the same category as guys like Duncan, Russell, Bird, MJ, Magic, and better than guys like Stockton, Nash, even Payton because he has won 2 MVP's. First of all, people don't like to think about it this way, but explain Nash's sudden surge in his mid-career. Well, the explanation is that Nash is playing in D'Antoni's running system which involves running on offense, passing the ball many times and shooting. In the running system Nash draws alot of the defenders in, and then passes to players on the perimeter for a jump shot. That inflates Nash's apg stats too, because it is not hard to get 10 apg if you are the main pg of D'Antoni's system. You may not like to think of it this way, but it is D'Antoni and the Sun's winning the MVP's for Nash, not Nash himself. Nash is a key part, but obviously if he were still playing on the Mavs, he wouldn't be even in contention for MVP.Nash has led his team to the wcf two times in a row Please, Payton has led his Sonics to the WCF a ton, and has even played in the Finals against the Bulls. If it weren't for the Bulls, he would probably have some NBA gewelry by now. Better than Stockton? Holy crap. Only a 9 year old would think that. Stockton is the 2nd best pg ever. He led his Jazz through the 80's and the 90's and he has had the best court vision out of anyone, maybe. Nash has led his team to the playoffs, but they still have alot of talent. He obviously still has a lot more talent on his team then Lebron or Kobe had. Dont even pull that on me. He had Shawn Marion, a possible top 10 guy in the NBA, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Leandro Barbosa, Eddie House, James Jones, and Tim Thomas' outburst int he playoffs.This isnt even close. Payton has had HOF worthy numbers for like 12 years now. Nash has been great for 2 years now because of D'Antoni's system and you say he is better? Oh yeah, and brung isnt a word. GP brought equal scoring ability, better defense, better leadership, better rebounding, and better court vision too (Yeah thats right). He has averaged 8 apg 7 times. Nash has averaged 8 apg 3 times. Payton was great for more then a decade, Nash 2 seasons. This is a joke if anyone votes for Nash, because he is also the worst defender in the NBA right now. Payton won DPOY once and was on the Defensive team countless times. THe difference there is huge..</div>First things first?D antonis system gives Nash 10 apg?What are you thinking dude thats a completely idiotic statement, also when did I say Nash was better then Stockton?I said Nash could be put in the same categorey with stockton, but stockton is the greatest pg of all time.Payton has HOF Number for 12 years?Yes your correct there, but so dose Nash.How is Payton that much better then Nash in your eyes.Payton dosen't have better court vision then Nash, just because he averaged 8 apg for 10+ seasons dosen't mean he has better court vision.Please watch a basketball game instead o basing your whole debates of off stats.Nash sets up his teamates for 3 pointers and fast breaks.Hes a better passing point guard and is a better shooter by far.GP dosen't have better leadership then Nash without a doubt.Nash is the best leader in the NBA right now, every team wants Nash because hes the best player in the NBA, he has led his team the wcf finals and hes putting up 20 and 10 day in and out and makes his teamates better.GPs a better player but the gap isn't that big.Nash brings alot to his suns and so did payton to his sonics but stats don't prove everything.Please watch a basketball game,Nash brings alot to his team and makes his teamates better.I'm tired of contridicting my self.The comparsion isn't a joke.Nash has 2 mvps and Payton has 0.Oh and about the teams,have you checked Paytons team when they reached the NBA finals?Also you think a coachings system makes a player then you must be idiotic.Nash is in the his prime right now and is the best player in the game today.People can argue that Nash is better then Payton in his prime because were talking about Nash and payton in there prime.Nash has won 2 staright mvps in his prime and has led his team the wcf two times in a row(once without there 2nd best player).Payton has won 0 mvps and has never dominated the NBA like Nash right now.
I think the post above should be in the running for the most unintentionally comedic moment of the year...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 7 2006, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First things first?D antonis system gives Nash 10 apg?What are you thinking dude thats a completely idiotic statement, also when did I say Nash was better then Stockton?I said Nash could be put in the same categorey with stockton, but stockton is the greatest pg of all time.Payton has HOF Number for 12 years?Yes your correct there, but so dose Nash.How is Payton that much better then Nash in your eyes.Payton dosen't have better court vision then Nash, just because he averaged 8 apg for 10+ seasons dosen't mean he has better court vision.Please watch a basketball game instead o basing your whole debates of off stats.Nash sets up his teamates for 3 pointers and fast breaks.Hes a better passing point guard and is a better shooter by far.GP dosen't have better leadership then Nash without a doubt.Nash is the best leader in the NBA right now, every team wants Nash because hes the best player in the NBA, he has led his team the wcf finals and hes putting up 20 and 10 day in and out and makes his teamates better.GPs a better player but the gap isn't that big.Nash brings alot to his suns and so did payton to his sonics but stats don't prove everything.Please watch a basketball game,Nash brings alot to his team and makes his teamates better.I'm tired of contridicting my self.The comparsion isn't a joke.Nash has 2 mvps and Payton has 0.Oh and about the teams,have you checked Paytons team when they reached the NBA finals?Also you think a coachings system makes a player then you must be idiotic.Nash is in the his prime right now and is the best player in the game today.People can argue that Nash is better then Payton in his prime because were talking about Nash and payton in there prime.Nash has won 2 staright mvps in his prime and has led his team the wcf two times in a row(once without there 2nd best player).Payton has won 0 mvps and has never dominated the NBA like Nash right now.</div>You obviously don't get to see many Suns games. D'Antoni's system gets Nash 10 apg because of the way it is run. It is a running system, and Nash is the anchor of it. The system draws the defense in because of the running style, making it easy for Nash to pass it to one of the perimeter guys for a shot. Also, when the team runs, it is easy for Nash to make a pass to set up a teammate for a lay up/dunk because the defense doesnt get back quick enough alot of the time. The Stockton thing was not focused on you. I just decided to get rid of that comment altoghether. Nash would certainly not be put into the same group of Stockton :no3:. Stockton ran his Jazz team for more than 15 years with excellence. He had much better court vision then Nash will ever have, on a team that didn't run. He averaged 12 apg one season! In a non-running style. Stockton is light years ahead of Nash offensively and defensively, and by leading a team.Nash has not even played 12 years first of all. And he has only put up HOF worthy numbers for 2 years now. And explain why he suddenly improves dramatically when he is 30. Maybe because playing in D'Antoni's offense inflates your numbers. How is Payton so much better than Nash? Didn't I already explain this to you. Payton can score just as well as Nash can, he is lightyears ahead of Nash in defending, he was a much better rebounder, better passer, and he was dominate for more than 12 years, where Nash has been dominate for 2 seasons. Payton certainly does have better court vision then Nash. I have seen tapes of Payton in his Sonis days, he knew who to pass it to, when, and he had a great assortment of passes. Nash just runs, so it makes it much easier for his apg to go up. If Payton played in the current Suns offense, he would get 10 apg, 11 easily. Payton has had great apg numbers for much more time than Nash has had his.Beter leader? Has Nash led his team to a Finals yet? No, and he has always had great teammates to work with. And he did play pretty poorly in the WCF this year against the Mavs. Okay, I admit that Nash is the better shooter than GP, but GP still scores as much or more than Nash so it doesnt really matter. That is probably the only thing Nash is better at too. Nash the best player in the NBA? :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: Please dont make me laugh. Unfortunately, basketball is played on 2 sides of the court. MVP's mean nothing in this debate. Payton played in the time of MJ, making it sorta hard for him to win any MVP awards. Also he played in the same time as the Jazz, and Nash hasnt had any real competition lately for the MVP award. MVP's dont determine who the better player is at all. Nash won MVP only because Kobe and Lebron both had sh*tty teams, and Dirk just wasnt enough to defeat Nash. Thats a lot of competition right there Dirk and Chauncey Billups.I agree, Payton did have a pretty formadible team with Kemp, Shrempf and Hersey Hawkins. But they overcame the Jazz team with Stockton and Malone. That is very impressive. The Suns have 2 of the best players in the League in Nash and Marion, also Boris Diaw, a potential triple double guy, and Raja Bell, followed by a bunch of guys who can put the ball in the basket. Who did the overcome? The Lakers and the Clippers? Two pretty average teams to say the least. And it took the Suns 7 games in each of those series'. Yes, of course a coaching system inflates stats. The running system makes Nash anchor the team, when they run, it gives Nash more opportunities to pass the ball to open guys and get assists. Some on like Andre Miller could average 9 or 10 apg in that system. Nash in his prime? Please, players don't enter their prime when they are 31 or 32 years old. Nash is just simply playing well because he is the anchor of the Suns running offense, which inflates his apg averages, and makes him look like a "Point God". Nash is better than Payton is his prime for the reasons I have already explained to you. Also, Nash has been in his "prime" for 2 seasons now, so it is not comparable at all, when Payton dominated the League on both ends for more than 12 seasons. Payton has never dominated the League? Please, he was the #2 pg in the League for 12 seasons, led his team to the playoffs countless times, led his team to a Finals once, beating out the Utah Jazz team. Nash has played well for 2 seasons now, and he has dominated the League? He's never surpassed any team that was any good anyway, he has never been to the Finals.Edit: Please don't call me idiotic. It makes you look bad seeing as I am owning you in this debate..
^ Holy Sh*t CB4. That was a sweet post. Anyone that ever calls you a spammer again, stick that in their ass.I like Payton in his prime, because he was a great scorer, defender, and passer. Nask is a bit one dimensional with his offense/passing. Payton could always slash to the basket and get to the line better than Nash. It is close, but I think the glove wins due to his overall play.
If that doesnt get my 1st team, I dont know what will <_<Anyway, yeah thanks Pistonfan. Hopefully he comes back for another round :brucelee:
