Well, I would take Payton easily. He played great defense, scored more than Nash, and could distribute the ball just as well. Nash is just more flashy and a better 3 point shooter. Payton is easily the winner here
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Milgod @ May 30 2006, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kemp was one of the most dominant players in the league for a few years. He isn't looked back on fondly because of his later years, but he was an absolute beast. The sonics also had Detlef (not going to try and spell his surname), one of the best utility players around. Nate McMillan was a great guard too, and Kendal Gill contributed on scoring. Don't pretend like Seattle wasn't loaded with talent.</div>They weren't, you stupid player overrater. You're just a Nash fanboy trying to discredit Payton for what he's done without much help.
:HAHAHA: @ someone saying Nash is clutch. He pulled the biggest choke job in numerous 4th quarters this post season.edit The clippers had the team to win the championship, what cost them was their coach's inability to coach.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jun 7 2006, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You obviously don't get to see many Suns games. D'Antoni's system gets Nash 10 apg because of the way it is run. It is a running system, and Nash is the anchor of it. The system draws the defense in because of the running style, making it easy for Nash to pass it to one of the perimeter guys for a shot. Also, when the team runs, it is easy for Nash to make a pass to set up a teammate for a lay up/dunk because the defense doesnt get back quick enough alot of the time. The Stockton thing was not focused on you. I just decided to get rid of that comment altoghether. Nash would certainly not be put into the same group of Stockton :no3:. Stockton ran his Jazz team for more than 15 years with excellence. He had much better court vision then Nash will ever have, on a team that didn't run. He averaged 12 apg one season! In a non-running style. Stockton is light years ahead of Nash offensively and defensively, and by leading a team.Nash has not even played 12 years first of all. And he has only put up HOF worthy numbers for 2 years now. And explain why he suddenly improves dramatically when he is 30. Maybe because playing in D'Antoni's offense inflates your numbers. How is Payton so much better than Nash? Didn't I already explain this to you. Payton can score just as well as Nash can, he is lightyears ahead of Nash in defending, he was a much better rebounder, better passer, and he was dominate for more than 12 years, where Nash has been dominate for 2 seasons. Payton certainly does have better court vision then Nash. I have seen tapes of Payton in his Sonis days, he knew who to pass it to, when, and he had a great assortment of passes. Nash just runs, so it makes it much easier for his apg to go up. If Payton played in the current Suns offense, he would get 10 apg, 11 easily. Payton has had great apg numbers for much more time than Nash has had his.Beter leader? Has Nash led his team to a Finals yet? No, and he has always had great teammates to work with. And he did play pretty poorly in the WCF this year against the Mavs. Okay, I admit that Nash is the better shooter than GP, but GP still scores as much or more than Nash so it doesnt really matter. That is probably the only thing Nash is better at too. Nash the best player in the NBA? :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: Please dont make me laugh. Unfortunately, basketball is played on 2 sides of the court. MVP's mean nothing in this debate. Payton played in the time of MJ, making it sorta hard for him to win any MVP awards. Also he played in the same time as the Jazz, and Nash hasnt had any real competition lately for the MVP award. MVP's dont determine who the better player is at all. Nash won MVP only because Kobe and Lebron both had sh*tty teams, and Dirk just wasnt enough to defeat Nash. Thats a lot of competition right there Dirk and Chauncey Billups.I agree, Payton did have a pretty formadible team with Kemp, Shrempf and Hersey Hawkins. But they overcame the Jazz team with Stockton and Malone. That is very impressive. The Suns have 2 of the best players in the League in Nash and Marion, also Boris Diaw, a potential triple double guy, and Raja Bell, followed by a bunch of guys who can put the ball in the basket. Who did the overcome? The Lakers and the Clippers? Two pretty average teams to say the least. And it took the Suns 7 games in each of those series'. Yes, of course a coaching system inflates stats. The running system makes Nash anchor the team, when they run, it gives Nash more opportunities to pass the ball to open guys and get assists. Some on like Andre Miller could average 9 or 10 apg in that system. Nash in his prime? Please, players don't enter their prime when they are 31 or 32 years old. Nash is just simply playing well because he is the anchor of the Suns running offense, which inflates his apg averages, and makes him look like a "Point God". Nash is better than Payton is his prime for the reasons I have already explained to you. Also, Nash has been in his "prime" for 2 seasons now, so it is not comparable at all, when Payton dominated the League on both ends for more than 12 seasons. Payton has never dominated the League? Please, he was the #2 pg in the League for 12 seasons, led his team to the playoffs countless times, led his team to a Finals once, beating out the Utah Jazz team. Nash has played well for 2 seasons now, and he has dominated the League? He's never surpassed any team that was any good anyway, he has never been to the Finals.Edit: Please don't call me idiotic. It makes you look bad seeing as I am owning you in this debate..</div>Mvps mean nothing?Mvps mean alot,Nash has been the best player in the leaguefor 2 years staright.Saying MVPs mean nothing is like saying dpoy awards mean nothing.Another idiotic statement,also you say that the system makes Nash a better player?Nash is ran by a great coach but still that dosen't make 10 apg from a player.Shawn Marion one of the best players in the league?Are you serious dude?Hes a great all around player, but is no where near a top 5 player in the NBA.Payton was surrounded by many good role players and was teamed up with one of the most dominat pfs in NBA history.Now you say that Payton is light years ahead of Nash which is correct because Nash is a horrible defender, but Nash is lights year ahead of payton on shooting and passing.Don't even come back saying that payton has better court vison because you were too young to even underdstand what basketball was when payton was in his prime.So your just making up false statements in saying he has better court vison when you never saw him play in his prime.Nash is a better passer and has better court vision so he takes that comparsion out of the water.Now we go to scoring.Nash averages about 12 shots per game while Payton proballys averages 15 per game.Nash is light years ahead of Payton on the shooting end.Nash shoots above 50 percent and shooting 40 percent from the 3 point line and is argubaly one of the greatest free throw shooters of all time AND IS ARGUBALY ONE OF THE BEST SHOOTERS OF ALL TIME.Nash is a beastly player and he has a nice clean stroke, hes also a clutch player which Payton isn't.Paytons a choker and never won a ring for it.Nash comes in the clutch for his team.His team never makes the finals because his teams a pure shooting team, these type of teams never win championships and never will.Payton will never win a champion ship either so whats really the diffrence in these guys leadership?Payton led his team to the finals one time, big whoop.Nash is just starting and led his team to the western confernce finals without there 2nd best player.They beat the Lakers and clippers in 7 games and both are medicore teams?Are you serious?The Lakers are preaty bad, but they have one man army Kobe bryant on there team leading the way and trying his hardest and if you remember in game 7 they destroyed the lakers by 30 points.Now the Clippers, are you serious?The Clippers medicore?This team was considered one of the best in the beginning of the season when they were raping teams up the ass,now if you consider the Clippers a average team then your idiotic.Now the Suns took the best team in the league to 6 games without amare stoudmire, if you ask me thats very good and if they had Amare it would have been a toss up in the series between these 2 teams.Now you question Nashs leadership abbiltys, but he makes teamates better day in and out and trys his best.He makes clutch baskets,shows leadership and has the best court vison in the game behind Jason Kidd.You are surely overating payton here saying hes light years ahead of him in this and that.Payton has never really dominated the league like any of the legends or top 50 players in NBA histroy.Nash is doing it on both ends of the court for his team and has won 2 staright MVPS,that right there is league domination and that right there is something Payton never accomplished.Just face the facts that Paytons a choker,dosen't even compare to Nash on the offensive end.Now like I said before,Payton is better then Nash in there primes, but still Payton isn't that much better of a player then Nash if you ask me Nash is the better point guard then Payton.You can't even debate with me on that, Nash is a amazing paser and a dyanmo shooter,both attributes of a GOOD pg.Both attributes Payton have, but dosen't compare to Nashs.
FOR GOD'S SAKE, STOP STAYING NASH IS CLUTCH. Did you miss the numerous 4th quarters he choked this post season?And this comparision is over considering Nash doesn't play any defense and gary is probably the grestest defender at the 1.
Did you miss the series against the Mavericks last year?Like I said before, Paytons the better player, but Nash is close behind him.Anyways, Nash is a true pg and payton isn't.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 8 2006, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Did you miss the series against the Mavericks last year?</div>Did you miss this year's post season? He just kept on missing and missing and missing. He is not clutch. Tim thomas is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 7 2006, 05:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Did you miss the series against the Mavericks last year?Like I said before, Paytons the better player, but Nash is close behind him.Anyways, Nash is a true pg and payton isn't.</div>Yes I did because I don't watch too much basketball, but im posting in this debate of my knowledge of both players.I have watched Nash last year and he did amazing and was very clutch, this year he still led his team to the western confernce finals.
Nash is lucky, any other point guard in the league would love to play in a system like D'antoni's. The stats in that system are inflated.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo_061 @ Jun 7 2006, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nash is lucky, any other point guard in the league would love to play in a system like D'antoni's. The stats in that system are inflated.</div>Did you see Nashs team?He has Marion,Barbosa and other great players on his team to set up for apg.The system of a coach dosen't make a player, if a system makes a player then phil Jacksons system made kobe average 35 ppg.Coachs systems don't make players, there skills at basketball make them what they are and Nash is the best passer in the nba and excells 10 apg ussally.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 8 2006, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Did you see Nashs team?He has Marion,Barbosa and other great players on his team to set up for apg.The system of a coach dosen't make a player, if a system makes a player then phil Jacksons system made kobe average 35 ppg.Coachs systems don't make players, there skills at basketball make them what they are and Nash is the best passer in the nba and excells 10 apg ussally.</div>Kobe already has proven he can score 40 at will without phil jackson. Steve nash is a product of a system, why didn't he blow up untill he came to phoenix?
Hello?when he came to phoneix there was a top 5 PF and top sf on his team.Don't be idiotic,the only player he had on the other team to set up was dirk and he ain't even a good post player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 8 2006, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hello?when he came to phoneix there was a top 5 PF and top sf on his team.Don't be idiotic,the only player he had on the other team to set up was dirk and he ain't even a good post player.</div>So obviously it's the system and players which allows him to make 10 assists You throw Gary payton on this team and he'd average 10aspg and play lockdown D.
Payton was on a better team then Nashs and still couldn't average 10 apg so don't even say that idiotic statement.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 8 2006, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Payton was on a better team then Nashs and still couldn't average 10 apg so don't even say that idiotic statement.</div>Do you even watch the suns? Their style of play creates more possesions therefore everything will be inflated,
Payton averaged 22.1 points, 9 assists in his last full season with Seattle. Closest Nash got to that before he got to Phoenix was 15.5 points and 8.8 assists.
I don't think we have or will ever see Steve Nash's true prime...he was in Dallas during his prime and didn't get to do what he's doing now....but maybe what he's doing is just a fluke, I have no idea but if your considering him right now at 32 his prime...I don't think he was better than Payton. Steve Nash has had a wierd career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 7 2006, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Mvps mean nothing?Mvps mean alot,Nash has been the best player in the leaguefor 2 years staright.Saying MVPs mean nothing is like saying dpoy awards mean nothing.Another idiotic statement,also you say that the system makes Nash a better player?Nash is ran by a great coach but still that dosen't make 10 apg from a player.Shawn Marion one of the best players in the league?Are you serious dude?Hes a great all around player, but is no where near a top 5 player in the NBA.Payton was surrounded by many good role players and was teamed up with one of the most dominat pfs in NBA history.Now you say that Payton is light years ahead of Nash which is correct because Nash is a horrible defender, but Nash is lights year ahead of payton on shooting and passing.Don't even come back saying that payton has better court vison because you were too young to even underdstand what basketball was when payton was in his prime.So your just making up false statements in saying he has better court vison when you never saw him play in his prime.Nash is a better passer and has better court vision so he takes that comparsion out of the water.Now we go to scoring.Nash averages about 12 shots per game while Payton proballys averages 15 per game.Nash is light years ahead of Payton on the shooting end.Nash shoots above 50 percent and shooting 40 percent from the 3 point line and is argubaly one of the greatest free throw shooters of all time AND IS ARGUBALY ONE OF THE BEST SHOOTERS OF ALL TIME.Nash is a beastly player and he has a nice clean stroke, hes also a clutch player which Payton isn't.Paytons a choker and never won a ring for it.Nash comes in the clutch for his team.His team never makes the finals because his teams a pure shooting team, these type of teams never win championships and never will.Payton will never win a champion ship either so whats really the diffrence in these guys leadership?Payton led his team to the finals one time, big whoop.Nash is just starting and led his team to the western confernce finals without there 2nd best player.They beat the Lakers and clippers in 7 games and both are medicore teams?Are you serious?The Lakers are preaty bad, but they have one man army Kobe bryant on there team leading the way and trying his hardest and if you remember in game 7 they destroyed the lakers by 30 points.Now the Clippers, are you serious?The Clippers medicore?This team was considered one of the best in the beginning of the season when they were raping teams up the ass,now if you consider the Clippers a average team then your idiotic.Now the Suns took the best team in the league to 6 games without amare stoudmire, if you ask me thats very good and if they had Amare it would have been a toss up in the series between these 2 teams.Now you question Nashs leadership abbiltys, but he makes teamates better day in and out and trys his best.He makes clutch baskets,shows leadership and has the best court vison in the game behind Jason Kidd.You are surely overating payton here saying hes light years ahead of him in this and that.Payton has never really dominated the league like any of the legends or top 50 players in NBA histroy.Nash is doing it on both ends of the court for his team and has won 2 staright MVPS,that right there is league domination and that right there is something Payton never accomplished.Just face the facts that Paytons a choker,dosen't even compare to Nash on the offensive end.Now like I said before,Payton is better then Nash in there primes, but still Payton isn't that much better of a player then Nash if you ask me Nash is the better point guard then Payton.You can't even debate with me on that, Nash is a amazing paser and a dyanmo shooter,both attributes of a GOOD pg.Both attributes Payton have, but dosen't compare to Nashs.</div>Yes, MVPs dont mean anything when you are comparing two players. They have to do with being an important part of the team, not neccisarilly being the best player in the League. I dont thinK Nash cracks the top 5 players in the League right now. Especially when Nash won his two MVPs when no other candidate really emerged, because Kobe and Lebron were held back by their records an dbecause the rest of their respected teams generally sucked ass. DPOY's do mean something because they are awarded for being the best at a certain attribute in the NBA. Nash isnt the best player in the NBA. He won it because of the fact that he "makes players better" (cough D'Antoni's system cough) and because he makes the team a lot better when he plays, and finally because he is the best passer in the NBA currently. But this doesnt really mean anything. Put Nash in Jordan's era, with the same Suns team and the Same Nash, and Nash is hardly an MVP candidate. That's what I was trying to say. I hope you dont ignore the point Im trying to make this team, like you did last time.Now, lets move on to the rest of your post. Ugh, Ill explain this one more time. In the Suns' style of play they get a) more posessions, and Nash is the nucleus. Everything revolves around him. You could use a pun and say that Nash is the sun of that team. When the team runs it makes it alot easier for him to drive in and then kick it out to the open players on the perimeter, or when the defense doesnt get back in time it makes it easier for Nash to flip it off to a guy for a fast break dunk or lay up. Yeah, believe it or not Shawn is a top 10 player in the League, or close to it. He is top 5 in rebounds, blocks, steals. He scores 20 ppg, a good passer for his size, scores alot of inside points, uses athleticism to cap off amazing highlight reel dunks, and can bank the shot (even though his shot is one of the ugliest, it does go in). Face it buddy, he is one of the best in the NBA. Better than Peja LMAO.Look at the bold. Ah, I think that means I am starting to gain your approval in this debate. That is not a good sign to agree with me when you are debating for Nash lol.B Ah, Nash is light years ahead of Payton? Ah, I see you still have been ignoring how the Suns' offense influences Nash's numbers. Okay, Im not going to explain that again to you. I will just first ask you why a primed Nash averaged fewer apg in Dallas than in Phoenix? That has to do with Phoenix's offense whether you want to believe it or not. Payton averaged much better apg numbers in a half court offense. Like I said before, he found the ball to the right person, at the right time, and he had some fancy passes in his bag o' trix. Payton is equal or better than Nash at passing the ball. Believe it or not, it's true. Uh, sorry to shatter your dreams buddy, but there is a show on NBA TV called "NBA's Greatest Games". That particular show is on every day. I have seen Payton play in his prime atleast 3 or 4 times. I saw that he was a fantastic passer. And if Nash went back to a half-court offense, his apg numbers would deflate back to 7 or 8. Running offense = apg.You make it sound like Payton is like Shaq, shooting 3 pointers. Payton still averages like a .350 3pt%. Nash is better at shooting, but not "lightyears" ahead of Payton. Notice how Nash's fg% has increased by about .030 points over the past two seasons. Phoenix's offense increases fg% also. Over his career Nash doesn't shoot over 50% but 48%. Gay shot 47% which is not that far back at all from Nash. Over their careers Nash averages 13 ppg, while Payton averages 17 ppg. And if you want to go in their prime, I will subtract Nash's "early years" when he was a rookie and sophomore in Phoenix and a backup in Dallas. Nash averages 16.6. Subtracting the years where Payton was a little "rough around the edges" scoring wise equals out to 19.8 ppg. The fact is that Payton scored 20+ ppg 8 times. Nash has never scored more than 18.8 ppg. So you cant say that Nash was the better scorer. Nash is the better shooter, and that is all.Payton's a choker and Nash is clutch? Please. Nash totally screwed up in Game 4 which the Lakers won, and Nash sucked in the series vs. the Mavericks. I don't believe Nash has ever gone to the Finals like Payton has. And I guess it is Payton's fault for losing to the 1996 Bulls who were amung the greatest teams ever and one of the best dynasties ever, with the best player ever. Give me a break. Last year were the a pure shooting team with Amare, Shawn Marion and Nash all scoring inside points? No. Nash lost in 5 games to the Spurs. What team has Nash beaten that was above a 5th seed? Nash has never beaten any great team. Payton beat one of the better dynasties ever in the West. The Utah Jazz with Stockton and Malone. Let's see if Nash could win more than 5 games in Payton's shoes against the Jazz. You cant make that argument. They had an even better team last year and they still lost in 5 games. Nash has never beaten any significant team so it his WCF trips are not really all that significant. Payton didn't go to the Finals more than once because of the Jazz, Lakers and other dynasties back then. No Duh. Going to the Finals once against teams like that calibre is mighty impressive.Both the Clippers and the Lakers were mediocre playoff teams. The Sonics took out the #1 seed to get to the NBA Finals. That's impressive. The Suns took out a one man team who wad the 7th seed, and a 6th seed team. That's not all that impressive. And they took 7 games to defeat each of those teams. And alot of that can be credited for Nash who crumbled in alot of important games. The Mavs werent the best team in the League. They only had a better record then the Suns by a few wins. The best teams were the Pistons and the Spurs. Losing 4-2 isnt really that impressive. Give me a break. You could give me this argument if they won the series, or atleast took them to a game 7. Nash did not have great leadership in these playoffs. He struggled in the Clippers and Mavs series, and he sucked in Game 4 of the Lakers vs. Suns series where he gave the ball away TWICE!! in crucial moments, when they could have won the game easily if he held onto the ball. And before that he was like a fricking construction worker with all the bricks he put up.ayton was a 22, 9, DPOY candidate for 13 years my friend. He made the WCF countless times, and made the Finals. He played well on all facets of the game. I dont know what dominating the League is to you, but thats some domination right there. Nash has not done squat. He led his team to the WCF twice and averaged 17 and 10 well playing the worst defense in the League, and having his #'s inflated because of the Sun's system.Quote from Sickness. "Nash is doing it on both ends of the court". Holy sh*t :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: This has got to be the dumbest thing anyone has ever said in BBW history. Do you even watch him at all, or watch basketball? Nash is the worst defensive player in the League right now. And you are saying that he dominated on both ends. Holy sh*t that is halarious that you think that dude. Why the hell is Payton a choker? You have never seen him play an NBA Game and you know sh*t about him, so just stop this madness right now. I guess he choked when he led his team over the Jazz to the NBA Finals, right?WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK NASH IS THE BETTER PLAYER? I have roved it to you with stats and knowldge of the NBA (something you certainly dont have) that Nash is only better than Payton at one thing. One thing. That's shooting. Wupp dee doo. If the best shooters in the NBA were the best players in the NBA than Reggie Miller would be better than Michael Jordan (ring any bells? hahahaha). Nash is not the better passer like I proved before. This is just retarded and you know it. Youre debate doesnt have any structure at all. I hope you realize that I have owned you so far, and I hope you just quit right now, before you embarrass yourself even more.
