<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo_061 @ Jun 7 2006, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe already has proven he can score 40 at will without phil jackson. Steve nash is a product of a system, why didn't he blow up untill he came to phoenix?</div>YepPayton and Kidd>Nash in their prime and I get mad at all the Suns fans who can disagree with that. I love what Nash is doing but Melo is right.
I would also say payton, payton like most of you guys have said already is a great defender,could score just as much as nash and he also had better leadership ability
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Jun 7 2006, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why are you wasting your time debating with this guy CB4? Come on.</div>I like to own dumb members every once in a while.. :closedeyes:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jun 8 2006, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I like to own dumb members every once in a while.. :closedeyes:</div>But comeone, that post was probably the longest in this board's history and you had to waste on some Nash nut hugger? Come on :no1:
I didnt even bother reading it... if I want to read something that long I'll do some novel study in school.And it's GP no doubt. This guy could do what Nash does easily and play some hard-nosed D. Comparing their defensive abilities... Payton is wayyy ahead. Scoring goes to Payton. Passing, well that's NAsh's specialty and GP does more and doesnt need to get 10 assisits to win a game, we've seen he can do better at times too.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo_061 @ Jun 8 2006, 03:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But comeone, that post was probably the longest in this board's history and you had to waste on some Nash nut hugger? Come on :no1:</div>I'll debate with anyone whether they have no knowledge or the most knowledge. And as for the longest post, it's probably the one in my debate with MarvinMartian :winkglasses:
[quote name='CB4AllStar' post='86223' date='Jun 7 2006, 07:46 PM']Yes, MVPs dont mean anything when you are comparing two players. They have to do with being an important part of the team, not neccisarilly being the best player in the League. I dont thinK Nash cracks the top 5 players in the League right now. Especially when Nash won his two MVPs when no other candidate really emerged, because Kobe and Lebron were held back by their records an dbecause the rest of their respected teams generally sucked ass. DPOY's do mean something because they are awarded for being the best at a certain attribute in the NBA. Nash isnt the best player in the NBA. He won it because of the fact that he "makes players better" (cough D'Antoni's system cough) and because he makes the team a lot better when he plays, and finally because he is the best passer in the NBA currently. But this doesnt really mean anything. Put Nash in Jordan's era, with the same Suns team and the Same Nash, and Nash is hardly an MVP candidate. That's what I was trying to say. I hope you dont ignore the point Im trying to make this team, like you did last time.Now, lets move on to the rest of your post. Ugh, Ill explain this one more time. In the Suns' style of play they get a) more posessions, and Nash is the nucleus. Everything revolves around him. You could use a pun and say that Nash is the sun of that team. When the team runs it makes it alot easier for him to drive in and then kick it out to the open players on the perimeter, or when the defense doesnt get back in time it makes it easier for Nash to flip it off to a guy for a fast break dunk or lay up. Yeah, believe it or not Shawn is a top 10 player in the League, or close to it. He is top 5 in rebounds, blocks, steals. He scores 20 ppg, a good passer for his size, scores alot of inside points, uses athleticism to cap off amazing highlight reel dunks, and can bank the shot (even though his shot is one of the ugliest, it does go in). Face it buddy, he is one of the best in the NBA. Better than Peja LMAO.Look at the bold. Ah, I think that means I am starting to gain your approval in this debate. That is not a good sign to agree with me when you are debating for Nash lol.B Ah, Nash is light years ahead of Payton? Ah, I see you still have been ignoring how the Suns' offense influences Nash's numbers. Okay, Im not going to explain that again to you. I will just first ask you why a primed Nash averaged fewer apg in Dallas than in Phoenix? That has to do with Phoenix's offense whether you want to believe it or not. Payton averaged much better apg numbers in a half court offense. Like I said before, he found the ball to the right person, at the right time, and he had some fancy passes in his bag o' trix. Payton is equal or better than Nash at passing the ball. Believe it or not, it's true. Uh, sorry to shatter your dreams buddy, but there is a show on NBA TV called "NBA's Greatest Games". That particular show is on every day. I have seen Payton play in his prime atleast 3 or 4 times. I saw that he was a fantastic passer. And if Nash went back to a half-court offense, his apg numbers would deflate back to 7 or 8. Running offense = apg.You make it sound like Payton is like Shaq, shooting 3 pointers. Payton still averages like a .350 3pt%. Nash is better at shooting, but not "lightyears" ahead of Payton. Notice how Nash's fg% has increased by about .030 points over the past two seasons. Phoenix's offense increases fg% also. Over his career Nash doesn't shoot over 50% but 48%. Gay shot 47% which is not that far back at all from Nash. Over their careers Nash averages 13 ppg, while Payton averages 17 ppg. And if you want to go in their prime, I will subtract Nash's "early years" when he was a rookie and sophomore in Phoenix and a backup in Dallas. Nash averages 16.6. Subtracting the years where Payton was a little "rough around the edges" scoring wise equals out to 19.8 ppg. The fact is that Payton scored 20+ ppg 8 times. Nash has never scored more than 18.8 ppg. So you cant say that Nash was the better scorer. Nash is the better shooter, and that is all.Payton's a choker and Nash is clutch? Please. Nash totally screwed up in Game 4 which the Lakers won, and Nash sucked in the series vs. the Mavericks. I don't believe Nash has ever gone to the Finals like Payton has. And I guess it is Payton's fault for losing to the 1996 Bulls who were amung the greatest teams ever and one of the best dynasties ever, with the best player ever. Give me a break. Last year were the a pure shooting team with Amare, Shawn Marion and Nash all scoring inside points? No. Nash lost in 5 games to the Spurs. What team has Nash beaten that was above a 5th seed? Nash has never beaten any great team. Payton beat one of the better dynasties ever in the West. The Utah Jazz with Stockton and Malone. Let's see if Nash could win more than 5 games in Payton's shoes against the Jazz. You cant make that argument. They had an even better team last year and they still lost in 5 games. Nash has never beaten any significant team so it his WCF trips are not really all that significant. Payton didn't go to the Finals more than once because of the Jazz, Lakers and other dynasties back then. No Duh. Going to the Finals once against teams like that calibre is mighty impressive.Both the Clippers and the Lakers were mediocre playoff teams. The Sonics took out the #1 seed to get to the NBA Finals. That's impressive. The Suns took out a one man team who wad the 7th seed, and a 6th seed team. That's not all that impressive. And they took 7 games to defeat each of those teams. And alot of that can be credited for Nash who crumbled in alot of important games. The Mavs werent the best team in the League. They only had a better record then the Suns by a few wins. The best teams were the Pistons and the Spurs. Losing 4-2 isnt really that impressive. Give me a break. You could give me this argument if they won the series, or atleast took them to a game 7. Nash did not have great leadership in these playoffs. He struggled in the Clippers and Mavs series, and he sucked in Game 4 of the Lakers vs. Suns series where he gave the ball away TWICE!! in crucial moments, when they could have won the game easily if he held onto the ball. And before that he was like a fricking construction worker with all the bricks he put up.ayton was a 22, 9, DPOY candidate for 13 years my friend. He made the WCF countless times, and made the Finals. He played well on all facets of the game. I dont know what dominating the League is to you, but thats some domination right there. Nash has not done squat. He led his team to the WCF twice and averaged 17 and 10 well playing the worst defense in the League, and having his #'s inflated because of the Sun's system.Quote from Sickness. "Nash is doing it on both ends of the court". Holy sh*t :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: This has got to be the dumbest thing anyone has ever said in BBW history. Do you even watch him at all, or watch basketball? Nash is the worst defensive player in the League right now. And you are saying that he dominated on both ends. Holy sh*t that is halarious that you think that dude. Why the hell is Payton a choker? You have never seen him play an NBA Game and you know sh*t about him, so just stop this madness right now. I guess he choked when he led his team over the Jazz to the NBA Finals, right?WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK NASH IS THE BETTER PLAYER? I have roved it to you with stats and knowldge of the NBA (something you certainly dont have) that Nash is only better than Payton at one thing. One thing. That's shooting. Wupp dee doo. If the best shooters in the NBA were the best players in the NBA than Reggie Miller would be better than Michael Jordan (ring any bells? hahahaha). Nash is not the better passer like I proved before. This is just retarded and you know it. Youre debate doesnt have any structure at all. I hope you realize that I have owned you so far, and I hope you just quit right now, before you embarrass yourself even more.[/quote]I didn't even waste my time to read your Payton loving post, anyways you base your whole debate on stats and its completely retarded.I never said Nash dose it on both ends of the court your being idotic and putting words in my mouth, now you talk about how MVPs mean nothing comparing two players,WELL WINNING A MEANS YOUR WERE THE BEST PLAYER FOR THOse years.Then you go on to talk about Paytons dpoy?I thought these silly awards don't mean anything, so why do you bring them in the disscussion?when i said Payton was light years ahead of Nash on defense,not overall.Don't ve idotic about the typos because you waste 3 hours on one posts while I only waste 10 minutes.Now how exactly did you prove that Payton was a better passer?Alls you said he had better court vision and was a better passer with no details.In this whole entire debate you base your facts of off stats, your post is completely iggnorarnt.You have some things correct, Payton is a better defender and is the better player overall, I NEVER SAID NASH WAS BETTER, another thing you put in my mouth and lied about.I'm simply debating that Nash is a elite PG and is close to Payton.Nash is averaging a double double, something Payton never did and will never do.Nash is a better scorer and a better shooter.Nash shoots at about 52 percent to Paytons 46 percent, Nash is a better offensive player by a mile and alls Payton has over Nash is defense because Nash can't defend for sh*t.Then you go again brickering about the Suns system like a idiotic Payton fan, please don't be stupid about the system,A system dosen't make a player there basketball skills make them.We can go on on about this, I have already said dozens of times that Paytons a better player, but you keep going on and on about Paytons defense and you bring up stats which dosen't really prove anything because you never saw Payton play in his prime and neither have I.Alls I know is that Paytons a choker and always had a good team when he led his team to the finals and the wcf, he also had a better team then NASH IMO.Nashs team is a first shooter team to Paytons sonic team thats packed with role players and great post players like Shawn Kemp.Shawn Kemp was unstoppable and was just like Amare stoudmire, but was a more powerful player.Now like I said in this debate, I barley keep up with NBA basketball, I am just debating with facts of the top of my head and I know that Nash is the best point guard in the NBA and will go on to become a Hall of famer.Nash hasn't achieved alot in his career except WIN 2 STARIGHT MVPS, something only Magic did as a PG.Now I remember last year when people used to say AMARE MADE NASH BETTER NOT A SYSTEM,but now since Amare gone and Nash still averages 11 apg you guys still say the system made him the player he is,that is a bogus statement by anybody who says that.Now we go on to Nash in dallas, he was still a good pg there.he was putting up great numbers,in his last 4 years he was averaging around 17 ppg and 7 apg which are good numbers with only dirk by side him to set up, now he gose on the Suns and has more options.He has Amare,Marion,and alot of good offensive role players.Right now Nash is getting alot of assists because his teamates are good also, but Nash also makes his teamates better.He has led this sun team last year to the best record in the NBA, he also led them to a win record without Amare stoudmire a top 5 pf that helped them get the best record in the NBA.People were doubting this team saying they "won't make the playoffs" or "there gonna do poor next season and not pass the first round".You people were doubting the Suns, but Nash led them to a winning season and to the western confernce finals with there 2nd best player.NOW DON'T EVEN DOUBT NASHS LEADERSHIP.Payton is a better leader, but still Nash is a great leader and helped his team countless of times and has put up great numbers.He even steped up in the playoffs, going 2 ppg above his scoring average and still giving his team 10 apg.He went 20.4 and 10.2 apg.He did amazing in the playoffs did year and don't even doubt him, you may say Nash is a choker, but he still led his suns team to the western confernce finals.Now Paytons a choker from what I heard, I have never seen this guy hit a clutch basketball in my entire life.I saw Nash destroy the Mavericks last year, he was clutch,score like 42 points on them and even got a tripple double on them,Nash proved why he was the MVP that year and proved if he wanted to, he can score at will.Nash could be a 25 ppg scorer and be a ballhog if he wanted to, but he decides to make his teamates better and be the MVP of the team.Now like I said countless of times, Paytons a better player, hes way better then Nash at the defense end as he has been one of the premier defenders in the NBA, and he also is a great scorer.Payton can score at will and draw fouls, but seriously you got to stop under rating Nash because he isn't a good defender.Now thats no reason to Say that Payton and Nash is no comparsion.It could be debated that Nash is better then Payton at there primes because Nash is averaging a double and is constantly leading his team to the WCF.Nash is without a doubt the best passer in the NBA and has the 2nd best court vison behind Jason Kidd, he a preaty good rebounder for a PG,him in Payton are tied in that categorey.Now really I got nothing much else to say except that Paytons the better overall player because hes a better defensive player.Payton is probally one of the best Defenders of all time like you said,your correct there, but its idotic to say Paytons that much better then him.Now I look over Paytons numbers and see the amount of minutes he plays per game.Payton averaged about 40 mpg for his sonic career to Nashs 34 mpg.Nash is doing great on 34 mpg(19 ppg, 11 apg) and Payton did great also, constantly going 20 and 8, but Payton got alot more minutes and most likely took more shots then Nash.Nash takes atleast 12 shots per game and Payton probally took about 15 shots at that time.Nash and Payton are about equal scorers , but Nash is a better shooter,Its just something I have to clear up since you said that Paytons better then Nash in everything which is false.I am bring up the stats and by stats Nash is the better passer and shooter and rebounder.So don't even say that false statement that Paytons better then Nash in everything.Now we go on with the debate with what?Your trying to prove that Paytons light years ahead of Nash?Are you seriously gonan keep debating this and keep putting words in my mouth, and saying that Paytons a better passer then Nash when you don't even have facts to back it up?Now keep going on with your idiotic statements, but you never even seen Payton play in his prime and I don't know why you continue this debate.Ps.To all the haters in this thread, I understand you don't like me for my past, i'm simply stating my opnion, I'm not posting one liners like bcb or wade3, I'm being biased for Reggie Miller.I'm backing up my opnion with details and facts.Note that I barley keep up basketball and bcb is bascially a basketball nerd.I used to keep up with basketball alot back then and used to be a idiot over Reggie Miller, but i'm not like that anymore so give it up already guys.If you wanna attack me then go for it, I don't care if you have to attack me to make yourself feel better.[quote name='CB4AllStar' post='86357' date='Jun 7 2006, 09:37 PM']I like to own dumb members every once in a while.. :closedeyes:[/quote]Dumb member?I bet if I took a IQ test to you, I would be higher.I'm dumb because I don't keep up with basketball as much as you,you mines as well call most scientists dumb because they don't know nothing about basketball.I barley keep up with basketball and I am just posting facts off the top of my head, don't go over the line and call me dumb, you were the one being dumb when you lost your mod postion.[quote name='BCB' post='86241' date='Jun 7 2006, 08:02 PM']Why are you wasting your time debating with this guy CB4? Come on.[/quote]Bcb spamming again?NOOOO WAY dude, another idiotic post by you Bcb, once again you post a one liner hating on me because i speak the truth of you.[quote name='ArizonaFan' post='86296' date='Jun 7 2006, 08:39 PM']YepPayton and Kidd>Nash in their prime and I get mad at all the Suns fans who can disagree with that. I love what Nash is doing but Melo is right.[/quote]You are totally correct dude, I am not on Nashs nuts and i'm not even a Suns fan, i'm simply debating that Payton isn't alot better then Nash, Nash is actually very close to Gary Payton in both there primes.Jason Kidd is the greatest all around point guard with Magic, isn't he like third all time of tripple doubles?[quote name='ELiiiTE' post='86653' date='Jun 8 2006, 07:53 AM'] I didnt even bother reading it... if I want to read something that long I'll do some novel study in school.And it's GP no doubt. This guy could do what Nash does easily and play some hard-nosed D. Comparing their defensive abilities... Payton is wayyy ahead. Scoring goes to Payton. Passing, well that's NAsh's specialty and GP does more and doesnt need to get 10 assisits to win a game, we've seen he can do better at times too.[/quote]That post wasn't too intellgent eh, anyways you are correct about Payton on defense, but you just can't say that Payton can do what Nash did on the Suns if Payton was on the Suns because it'll never happend so why do people constantly say that Payton can do what Nash did if he was on the suns?Thats a retarded statement and you'll never see it happend so stop saying it please.Pps.I have alot of typos in my post so don't complain about it, I will fix it.I was typing this really fast and finished in 10 minutes , I don't take 3 hours on my posts like cb4 or 10 seconds on my post like bcb.
Hard to compare, 2 very different players. The only thing I can think that they have in common is that the both play point guard. Payton WAS defensive-minded, Nash isn't, Payton has the attitude/trash talking, Nash doesn't, Nash is a better passer, Payton WAS a better scorer...Nash shoots better, Payton was faster, I'm undecided. Tough choice.In the end I'll take Nash based on the fact that Payton's an ***hole.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 8 2006, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I didn't even waste my time to read your Payton loving post, anyways you base your whole debate on stats and its completely retarded.I never said Nash dose it on both ends of the court your being idotic and putting words in my mouth, now you talk about how MVPs mean nothing comparing two players,WELL WINNING A MEANS YOUR WERE THE BEST PLAYER FOR THOse years.Then you go on to talk about Paytons dpoy?I thought these silly awards don't mean anything, so why do you bring them in the disscussion?when i said Payton was light years ahead of Nash on defense,not overall.Don't ve idotic about the typos because you waste 3 hours on one posts while I only waste 10 minutes.Now how exactly did you prove that Payton was a better passer?Alls you said he had better court vision and was a better passer with no details.In this whole entire debate you base your facts of off stats, your post is completely iggnorarnt.You have some things correct, Payton is a better defender and is the better player overall, I NEVER SAID NASH WAS BETTER, another thing you put in my mouth and lied about.I'm simply debating that Nash is a elite PG and is close to Payton.Nash is averaging a double double, something Payton never did and will never do.Nash is a better scorer and a better shooter.Nash shoots at about 52 percent to Paytons 46 percent, Nash is a better offensive player by a mile and alls Payton has over Nash is defense because Nash can't defend for sh*t.Then you go again brickering about the Suns system like a idiotic Payton fan, please don't be stupid about the system,A system dosen't make a player there basketball skills make them.We can go on on about this, I have already said dozens of times that Paytons a better player, but you keep going on and on about Paytons defense and you bring up stats which dosen't really prove anything because you never saw Payton play in his prime and neither have I.Alls I know is that Paytons a choker and always had a good team when he led his team to the finals and the wcf, he also had a better team then NASH IMO.Nashs team is a first shooter team to Paytons sonic team thats packed with role players and great post players like Shawn Kemp.Shawn Kemp was unstoppable and was just like Amare stoudmire, but was a more powerful player.Now like I said in this debate, I barley keep up with NBA basketball, I am just debating with facts of the top of my head and I know that Nash is the best point guard in the NBA and will go on to become a Hall of famer.Nash hasn't achieved alot in his career except WIN 2 STARIGHT MVPS, something only Magic did as a PG.Now I remember last year when people used to say AMARE MADE NASH BETTER NOT A SYSTEM,but now since Amare gone and Nash still averages 11 apg you guys still say the system made him the player he is,that is a bogus statement by anybody who says that.Now we go on to Nash in dallas, he was still a good pg there.he was putting up great numbers,in his last 4 years he was averaging around 17 ppg and 7 apg which are good numbers with only dirk by side him to set up, now he gose on the Suns and has more options.He has Amare,Marion,and alot of good offensive role players.Right now Nash is getting alot of assists because his teamates are good also, but Nash also makes his teamates better.He has led this sun team last year to the best record in the NBA, he also led them to a win record without Amare stoudmire a top 5 pf that helped them get the best record in the NBA.People were doubting this team saying they "won't make the playoffs" or "there gonna do poor next season and not pass the first round".You people were doubting the Suns, but Nash led them to a winning season and to the western confernce finals with there 2nd best player.NOW DON'T EVEN DOUBT NASHS LEADERSHIP.Payton is a better leader, but still Nash is a great leader and helped his team countless of times and has put up great numbers.He even steped up in the playoffs, going 2 ppg above his scoring average and still giving his team 10 apg.He went 20.4 and 10.2 apg.He did amazing in the playoffs did year and don't even doubt him, you may say Nash is a choker, but he still led his suns team to the western confernce finals.Now Paytons a choker from what I heard, I have never seen this guy hit a clutch basketball in my entire life.I saw Nash destroy the Mavericks last year, he was clutch,score like 42 points on them and even got a tripple double on them,Nash proved why he was the MVP that year and proved if he wanted to, he can score at will.Nash could be a 25 ppg scorer and be a ballhog if he wanted to, but he decides to make his teamates better and be the MVP of the team.Now like I said countless of times, Paytons a better player, hes way better then Nash at the defense end as he has been one of the premier defenders in the NBA, and he also is a great scorer.Payton can score at will and draw fouls, but seriously you got to stop under rating Nash because he isn't a good defender.Now thats no reason to Say that Payton and Nash is no comparsion.It could be debated that Nash is better then Payton at there primes because Nash is averaging a double and is constantly leading his team to the WCF.Nash is without a doubt the best passer in the NBA and has the 2nd best court vison behind Jason Kidd, he a preaty good rebounder for a PG,him in Payton are tied in that categorey.Now really I got nothing much else to say except that Paytons the better overall player because hes a better defensive player.Payton is probally one of the best Defenders of all time like you said,your correct there, but its idotic to say Paytons that much better then him.Now I look over Paytons numbers and see the amount of minutes he plays per game.Payton averaged about 40 mpg for his sonic career to Nashs 34 mpg.Nash is doing great on 34 mpg(19 ppg, 11 apg) and Payton did great also, constantly going 20 and 8, but Payton got alot more minutes and most likely took more shots then Nash.Nash takes atleast 12 shots per game and Payton probally took about 15 shots at that time.Nash and Payton are about equal scorers , but Nash is a better shooter,Its just something I have to clear up since you said that Paytons better then Nash in everything which is false.I am bring up the stats and by stats Nash is the better passer and shooter and rebounder.So don't even say that false statement that Paytons better then Nash in everything.Now we go on with the debate with what?Your trying to prove that Paytons light years ahead of Nash?Are you seriously gonan keep debating this and keep putting words in my mouth, and saying that Paytons a better passer then Nash when you don't even have facts to back it up?Now keep going on with your idiotic statements, but you never even seen Payton play in his prime and I don't know why you continue this debate.Ps.To all the haters in this thread, I understand you don't like me for my past, i'm simply stating my opnion, I'm not posting one liners like bcb or wade3, I'm being biased for Reggie Miller.I'm backing up my opnion with details and facts.Note that I barley keep up basketball and bcb is bascially a basketball nerd.I used to keep up with basketball alot back then and used to be a idiot over Reggie Miller, but i'm not like that anymore so give it up already guys.If you wanna attack me then go for it, I don't care if you have to attack me to make yourself feel better.Dumb member?I bet if I took a IQ test to you, I would be higher.I'm dumb because I don't keep up with basketball as much as you,you mines as well call most scientists dumb because they don't know nothing about basketball.I barley keep up with basketball and I am just posting facts off the top of my head, don't go over the line and call me dumb, you were the one being dumb when you lost your mod postion.Bcb spamming again?NOOOO WAY dude, another idiotic post by you Bcb, once again you post a one liner hating on me because i speak the truth of you.You are totally correct dude, I am not on Nashs nuts and i'm not even a Suns fan, i'm simply debating that Payton isn't alot better then Nash, Nash is actually very close to Gary Payton in both there primes.Jason Kidd is the greatest all around point guard with Magic, isn't he like third all time of tripple doubles?That post wasn't too intellgent eh, anyways you are correct about Payton on defense, but you just can't say that Payton can do what Nash did on the Suns if Payton was on the Suns because it'll never happend so why do people constantly say that Payton can do what Nash did if he was on the suns?Thats a retarded statement and you'll never see it happend so stop saying it please.Pps.I have alot of typos in my post so don't complain about it, I will fix it.I was typing this really fast and finished in 10 minutes , I don't take 3 hours on my posts like cb4 or 10 seconds on my post like bcb. </div>I bet you did read my post. You just didn't want to respond to it, because there was no way of avoiding the truth anymore, so you just say the same things over and over again. Ok, well I will do this again, but if you keep on posting the same bullsh** over and over again, Im done with you after this post.How did I base my whole debate on stats? I had parts on apg and ppg, to help drive home my point. So what? Dude, I quoted you exactly. You're just trying to get yourself out of the guillotine for saying something as stupid as that. Here is your quote "Nash does it on both ends for his team". Once again, that is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on here. Nash only does it on one side. Nash is the worst in the League, or top 3 worst in the League at playing defense. He lets everyone run past him, and he hardly guards/stays on his man. Your ignorance pulls through on that one once again.Once again, I will repeat myself. You can't look at MVP's when you are judging players from different era's. Payton played in the Jordan era, the Magic era, the Bird era, the Drexler era, the Stockton era, and the Malone era. Kind of hard for him to recieve an MVP awad, eh? For Nash, he was basically stacked up against Dirk Nowitzki and Chauncey Billups, because realistically Lebron James and Kobe Bryant didn't have a good enough record to win that award. DPOY's do matter, because unlike MVP's, they highlight an attribute that a player was the best in the League at. It is much more impressive too, because Payton won it over guys like Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Hakeem Olajuwon. That's very hard to overcome those guys, but he did it. That definately deserves some recognition. Payton is not overall better at defense than Nash? LMAO, Nash does nothing on defense. Payton was better at every singal aspect of defense then Nash was or ever will turn out to be. Look at the DPOY too. He won it against some of the greatest defensive players, ever. So that speaks for itself.As for the typo's. You don't have to get every thing right if you are typing fast, but atleast make yourself look smart or presentable. How can I prove anything, without using stats to you? That was hypocritical. First you said, "How did you porve hat Payton has better court vision than Nash?". And then after that you proceded to say, "Your whole debate is based off stats". I dont agree with that statement, but that's not the point. How the hell am I supposed to prove anything to you without using stats? Another stupid comment..Well okay, Ill tell you. But you may not get it like the last 3 times Ive explained this to you. Payton got 7, 8 or 9 apg in a half court offense. If Payton was in the running offense, I bet he could get 10 or 11 apg easily. Nash has never goten more than 8.4 apg in a half court offense. So, how are you going to say Nash has the better court vision when his apg numbers get inflated by the running offense? Can you just agree that they are equal in that department? You did say Nash was better. You said, "In my opinion, Nash is the better overall player" in your last post. Do you wan me to find that quote for you as well? Nash is averaging a double double because of the running offense, once again. I dont feel I need to explain to you again how the running offense inflates apg, so I wont for now. How come Nash never averaged a triple double when he was in his prime with the Mavericks? I already proved that Payton was the better scorer, but again you totally ignored that like all the thngs you always ignore in this debate. Nash's career fg% is 48%. Payton's is 47%. And if Nash's fg% wasn't inflated by playing on the Suns, Payton would have the better fg% here. Nash in his career averaged 13 ppg. Payton in his career, averages 17 ppg. Nash in his prime averages 16 ppg. Payton in his prime averages 21 ppg. So you can't say that Nash is the better scorer AT ALL. So don't give me that bullsh**. Wrong again. Payton was the better offensive and defensive player than Nash. Because their court vision is tied and we have just established that Payton was the better scorer. So wha does that leave for Nash? Not much is their. Oh yeah, another thing. payton went to the Finals against tough teams in the West. Nash hasn't beaten any elite team in the playoffs yet, and he has only been to the WCF.I think I will end my post here, because I dont feel like tracking down more of your bullsh** in that post.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jun 8 2006, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I bet you did read my post. You just didn't want to respond to it, because there was no way of avoiding the truth anymore, so you just say the same things over and over again. Ok, well I will do this again, but if you keep on posting the same bullsh** over and over again, Im done with you after this post.How did I base my whole debate on stats? I had parts on apg and ppg, to help drive home my point. So what? Dude, I quoted you exactly. You're just trying to get yourself out of the guillotine for saying something as stupid as that. Here is your quote "Nash does it on both ends for his team". Once again, that is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on here. Nash only does it on one side. Nash is the worst in the League, or top 3 worst in the League at playing defense. He lets everyone run past him, and he hardly guards/stays on his man. Your ignorance pulls through on that one once again.Once again, I will repeat myself. You can't look at MVP's when you are judging players from different era's. Payton played in the Jordan era, the Magic era, the Bird era, the Drexler era, the Stockton era, and the Malone era. Kind of hard for him to recieve an MVP awad, eh? For Nash, he was basically stacked up against Dirk Nowitzki and Chauncey Billups, because realistically Lebron James and Kobe Bryant didn't have a good enough record to win that award. DPOY's do matter, because unlike MVP's, they highlight an attribute that a player was the best in the League at. It is much more impressive too, because Payton won it over guys like Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Hakeem Olajuwon. That's very hard to overcome those guys, but he did it. That definately deserves some recognition. Payton is not overall better at defense than Nash? LMAO, Nash does nothing on defense. Payton was better at every singal aspect of defense then Nash was or ever will turn out to be. Look at the DPOY too. He won it against some of the greatest defensive players, ever. So that speaks for itself.As for the typo's. You don't have to get every thing right if you are typing fast, but atleast make yourself look smart or presentable. How can I prove anything, without using stats to you? That was hypocritical. First you said, "How did you porve hat Payton has better court vision than Nash?". And then after that you proceded to say, "Your whole debate is based off stats". I dont agree with that statement, but that's not the point. How the hell am I supposed to prove anything to you without using stats? Another stupid comment..Well okay, Ill tell you. But you may not get it like the last 3 times Ive explained this to you. Payton got 7, 8 or 9 apg in a half court offense. If Payton was in the running offense, I bet he could get 10 or 11 apg easily. Nash has never goten more than 8.4 apg in a half court offense. So, how are you going to say Nash has the better court vision when his apg numbers get inflated by the running offense? Can you just agree that they are equal in that department? You did say Nash was better. You said, "In my opinion, Nash is the better overall player" in your last post. Do you wan me to find that quote for you as well? Nash is averaging a double double because of the running offense, once again. I dont feel I need to explain to you again how the running offense inflates apg, so I wont for now. How come Nash never averaged a triple double when he was in his prime with the Mavericks? I already proved that Payton was the better scorer, but again you totally ignored that like all the thngs you always ignore in this debate. Nash's career fg% is 48%. Payton's is 47%. And if Nash's fg% wasn't inflated by playing on the Suns, Payton would have the better fg% here. Nash in his career averaged 13 ppg. Payton in his career, averages 17 ppg. Nash in his prime averages 16 ppg. Payton in his prime averages 21 ppg. So you can't say that Nash is the better scorer AT ALL. So don't give me that bullsh**. Wrong again. Payton was the better offensive and defensive player than Nash. Because their court vision is tied and we have just established that Payton was the better scorer. So wha does that leave for Nash? Not much is their. Oh yeah, another thing. payton went to the Finals against tough teams in the West. Nash hasn't beaten any elite team in the playoffs yet, and he has only been to the WCF.I think I will end my post here, because I dont feel like tracking down more of your bullsh** in that post.</div>Once again you put more words in my mouth and you were iditotic again.Are you serious Nash averaged 19 ppg so Nash in his prime averaged 19 ppg, don't be idiotic.You just don't understand the fact that Nash takes lesser shots then Payton by like 4.Now we go on the shooter percetenages, dude were talking about the players in there prime not in there whole career.I never said Nash had anything on Payton on defense, I said Payton was totally better then Nash on the defensive end, once again you put more words in my mouth which were false.Now we go on the era bs.Yes Payton was in the era with Jordan,Barkley and all the legends, but do you think Payton can win a MVP over Kobe,Lebron,Dirk,Garnett and Tim duncan?I don't think so, Nash makes his teamates better and hes without doubt in a great era of players.Chauncey Billups is a great PG too imo so don't even say dirk and Chauncey were the only ones in the MVP race like they sucked compared to Payton.Nash hasn't beated any elite teams yet?Are you retarded, that statement was completely iggnoranThis year he beat out the Lakers which were a regular playoff team that were ran by Kobe Bryant who was playing godly all season long and they beat the clippers who were considered a elite team at the end of the regular season.Now last season the suns blew out the girzzles and beat the Mavericks who are without a doubt a elite team, so don't even say that Nash never led his suns past a elite team, another idiotic statement.Now Nash is averaging a double double because of the running offense?So now hes averaging a double double because of the running offense, not the system.Nice way to contridict your self buddy.Now stop makign excuses and stop trying to put Nash down, I guess I can say Payton was averaging 20 ppg because of the system, its completely bogus what your saying and you should stop right there with your retarded remarks.Nash never averaged a triple double when he was in his prime with the mavericks?WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: .Payton would have had a better fg percentage if Nash never played on the Suns?Wow dude, how much more excuses can you make for Payton?Nash is a better shooter and will always be, he has a 90 free throw percentage which is godly and shoots 52 percent.Nash is one of the best shooters in the NBA without a doubt and also can draw fouls and drives to the hoop.Theres not really much more I can say since I explained in the other post, but all your other posts were good, but I am sorry, but this one was idotic and bogus.Your saying the system and the running offense made the player that Nash is?Your saying that a running offense makes Nash average a double, but before my post the system made Nash average a double.Stop contridicting yourself and agree with me for once.Your being biased and making excuses for Payton being better at anything.Your false about Payton being a better shooter, Imo Nash shoots a higher percentage in every categorey on the shooting end.Now try making a better post next time, I am not really trying on my posts, I am just saying that last post was idiotic and you didn't really prove anything in it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 8 2006, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Once again you put more words in my mouth and you were iditotic again.Are you serious Nash averaged 19 ppg so Nash in his prime averaged 19 ppg, don't be idiotic.You just don't understand the fact that Nash takes lesser shots then Payton by like 4.Now we go on the shooter percetenages, dude were talking about the players in there prime not in there whole career.I never said Nash had anything on Payton on defense, I said Payton was totally better then Nash on the defensive end, once again you put more words in my mouth which were false.Now we go on the era bs.Yes Payton was in the era with Jordan,Barkley and all the legends, but do you think Payton can win a MVP over Kobe,Lebron,Dirk,Garnett and Tim duncan?I don't think so, Nash makes his teamates better and hes without doubt in a great era of players.Chauncey Billups is a great PG too imo so don't even say dirk and Chauncey were the only ones in the MVP race like they sucked compared to Payton.Nash hasn't beated any elite teams yet?Are you retarded, that statement was completely iggnoranThis year he beat out the Lakers which were a regular playoff team that were ran by Kobe Bryant who was playing godly all season long and they beat the clippers who were considered a elite team at the end of the regular season.Now last season the suns blew out the girzzles and beat the Mavericks who are without a doubt a elite team, so don't even say that Nash never led his suns past a elite team, another idiotic statement.Now Nash is averaging a double double because of the running offense?So now hes averaging a double double because of the running offense, not the system.Nice way to contridict your self buddy.Now stop makign excuses and stop trying to put Nash down, I guess I can say Payton was averaging 20 ppg because of the system, its completely bogus what your saying and you should stop right there with your retarded remarks.Nash never averaged a triple double when he was in his prime with the mavericks?WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: .Payton would have had a better fg percentage if Nash never played on the Suns?Wow dude, how much more excuses can you make for Payton?Nash is a better shooter and will always be, he has a 90 free throw percentage which is godly and shoots 52 percent.Nash is one of the best shooters in the NBA without a doubt and also can draw fouls and drives to the hoop.Theres not really much more I can say since I explained in the other post, but all your other posts were good, but I am sorry, but this one was idotic and bogus.Your saying the system and the running offense made the player that Nash is?Your saying that a running offense makes Nash average a double, but before my post the system made Nash average a double.Stop contridicting yourself and agree with me for once.Your being biased and making excuses for Payton being better at anything.Your false about Payton being a better shooter, Imo Nash shoots a higher percentage in every categorey on the shooting end.Now try making a better post next time, I am not really trying on my posts, I am just saying that last post was idiotic and you didn't really prove anything in it.</div>Im done. Your being too ignorant. I dont have time to try to explain the game of basketball to you.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jun 8 2006, 06:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Im done. Your being too ignorant. I dont have time to try to explain the game of basketball to you.</div>Your not explaining anything, you obviously never saw Payton play in his prime, your whole side of the debate is based of stats.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 9 2006, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your not explaining anything, you obviously never saw Payton play in his prime, your whole side of the debate is based of stats.</div> Your how old?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OsK S2 SiCkNeSS @ Jun 9 2006, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your not explaining anything, you obviously never saw Payton play in his prime, your whole side of the debate is based of stats.</div>Are you stupid or something? You can watch Repeats of old games edit: Oh sh*t, i thought you were bcb,
