Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... Will he be further recognized in terms of his greatness, being able to take a team from Semi-Finals loss to Championship in two years?Will it be a David Robinson situation where no one cares because DWade did all the work?For me, while I don't think it will be as meaningful, if Shaq wins a championship with Miami this season he will cement himself as the greatest winner of the post - Russell era, and possibly of All Time.When he joined Orlando, he took them from 21 wins to 41 wins. In four years, he took them to the NBA Finals.When he joined LA, he took them from 48 wins to 53 wins, and 3 Championships / 4 Finals appearences in 8 yearsWhen he joined Miami, if he is going to win the championship this year, he would have taken them from 42 wins (I think) to 55+ wins and a championship in 2 years.The thing that makes this great also, is that unlike a Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Byron Scott, Shaq has always been the focal point of his teams, up until this year with Miami, and possibly last year with Miami. He has won carrying his team.The difference between Shaq and a Bill Russell, is that while Shaq has had great teams, he hasn't had countless Hall of Famers around him playing in their prime. He didn't have Kareem and James Worthy playing with him in his prime like Magic. He didn't have Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, and (possibly HOF) Dennis Johnson on his team. While SHaq has had great supporting casts, he hasn't had Hall of Fame supporting casts. If Shaq si to win a championship, he'll be one of the best winners of All Time, as well as one of the best individual palyers of All Time
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... But the thing that has made Shaq so great, is that everytime he has entered a new team (3 times) he has taken them from horrible to contender, or good to contender almost immediately. None of those guys can say that. Not a knack against them, just a positive for Shaq. Shaq was the main option that year. Kobe scored more, yes, but come playoff time, Shaq was the man. Even during the season, I believe the Lakers were under .500 until Shaw came back, where they ended up winning 50+ games. In the Finals, Shaq was scoring 30+ PPG while Kobe was having the worst Finals series of his life. Again, I'm not saying Russell wasn't a great winner because he had all those HOFers, but I am saying it makes it that more impressive Shaq can win on all these teams, with much worse overall talent in terms of greatness and Hall of Fame status But again, Russell stuck on one team his whole career that always had multiple HOFers playing in their prime. Shaq has been on 3 teams, and has immediately took them to contendership with only one HOFer per-team (Perhaps none in Orlando)
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... Very sorry about that, I edited your post by mistake (3rd time I've done it)Shitters...My bad dude, real sorry
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart @ Jun 1 2006, 08:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But the thing that has made Shaq so great, is that everytime he has entered a new team (3 times) he has taken them from horrible to contender, or good to contender almost immediately. None of those guys can say that. Not a knack against them, just a positive for Shaq.</div>Could you not also say that every time he entered a team it was with a fellow star. Penny was the best guard not named Jordan before he got hurt. Everybody knows about Kobe and Wade. Shaq joined the Heat after Wade established himself as a star in the playoffs. Kobe, Shaq, and PJ was a match bound to be successful.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq was the main option that year. Kobe scored more, yes, but come playoff time, Shaq was the man. Even during the season, I believe the Lakers were under .500 until Shaw came back, where they ended up winning 50+ games. In the Finals, Shaq was scoring 30+ PPG while Kobe was having the worst Finals series of his life.</div>Of course the Lakers had a losing record before Shaq came back because the team was built around both him and Kobe. Given that Shaq waited two months for the surgery due to laziness, I'd hardly consider that a point in his favor. As that directly led to the Lakers finishing with a five seed and ultimately bringing an end to their run in titles. Hell, Kobe was dropping 32 a game in those playoffs...In 2004, Kobe had a terrible Finals, yes. But the Lakers wouldn't have made the Finals if it weren't for Kobe's superior play throughout the playoffs.Kobe was both the best scorer and best defender on the 2003 and 2004 Lakers and in the playoffs as well. How is he not the main option?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Again, I'm not saying Russell wasn't a great winner because he had all those HOFers, but I am saying it makes it that more impressive Shaq can win on all these teams, with much worse overall talent in terms of greatness and Hall of Fame status</div>The Lakers and Celtics of the eighties had a handful of Hall of Famers, but they were playing each other for NBA titles. LA was beating the likes of Larry Bird and Co. Boston was beating the Likes of Magic and Kareem. In LA, Shaq and Kobe (two perennial ALL-NBAers and surefire HOFers) played against teams nowhere near as talented in the Pacers, Nets, and Sixers.
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... But again, one star is nothing compared to Russell's numerous Hall of Famers, Magic's two Hall of Famers, Larry Bird's three Hall of Famers... Like I said, Shaq has always had great talent, but not to the degree those guys had The Lakers only became built around Shaq and Kobe from a success standpoint during the 1998-1999 season. From 1996 or 1997 (Shaq's first season) to 1999, the team was sorely Shaq's, and they were still a 50+ wins squad. And I don't know what playoffs you are talking about? Alright, but Shaq was still their best player, and first option. His touches declined majorly, but that Finals series alone proves he was stil their best player, most valuable player, and most effective player. He, unlike Kobe, canme up biggest on a consistent basis when it was needed. Being a defender has nothing do do with being an "option" on offense. Yes Kobe was the best scorer, but Shaq was still the player the Lakers ran the offense through. James Worthy was a better scorer than Magic Johnson, but was he a higher option then him with the game on the line? No. You make a very solid point here, that these teams were playing other teams packed with Hall of Famers. However, I stick to the fact that wherever Shaq has went, he has taken good teams to greatness on two possible occasions. We don't know if that would have ever happened with Bird, Magic, or MJ
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... We're just going to talk circle here, so I'll leave this point out. Well, originally the team was built around Shaq. Kobe's first two years were mostly relegated to more of a backup role as he was only 18 and 19. As Kobe's skill grew, the team became more and more based on both of them. Shaq made big plays off a defense's inability to keep their eyes off Kobe and Kobe made big plays off a defenses inability to keep their eyes off Shaq. When Kobe finally got a consistent starting role in 1999, they won a title just a year later. Shaq was going to win games, I'm not going to deny that, but having a guard as talented as Kobe gave him the ability to win titles (which is what we are talking about here). When you throw arguably the greatest coach of all time in the mix, I don't think you can really give one guy much more credit than the other for the title run.I was referring to the 2003 playoffs by the way, Kobe averaged 32 points, 5 boards, and 5 dishes in the postseason that year. Shaq was hardly their best player. He was one of the lazier defenders on the floor, he was still out of shape (as usual), and he didn't score well until the Finals. Even including the Finals, Shaq was only scoring 21 or 22 points a game which is not the dominating Shaq that everyone remembers.You do realize that Detroit's coaching strategy that year was to let Shaq score and try to stop everyone else, right? I mean, his stats are bit inflated for those Finals because Detroit knew that Shaq couldn't outscore the Pistons by himself. Kobe didn't have a great series outside of his heroics in Game 2, but the defensive approach towards Shaq in the Finals was a major headline. Oops. I didn't mean that, I meant to say the focal point of the team there. Kobe has been the main option with the game on the line for several years. Especially in 2004. Well, Miami hasn't made the Finals yet, and as a Laker fan, a 3-1 (3-2 now) lead isn't as hard to blow as it would seem. I still really don't see a case for Shaq being a better winner than MJ. If you just go by supporting casts, MJ was essentially in the same situation as Shaq, but MJ still won three more rings. And I think had MJ been moved to a different team with a similar talent level as the Bulls--like Shaq has been moved to teams with similar talent levels--he'd still win a couple titles.
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... Kobe without Shaq= no playoffs or first round exit. Shaq without Kobe= opportunity is still there. Just needs another great guard. Shaq did it with Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, and now Wade without struggling. Kobe has yet to being able to take a team without Shaq anywhere.
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... 4 Championships will earn him atleast top 7 all time. It is spectacular to win 4 championships in the modern era. It would be even better if he ended up with Finals MVP again. People will regard Shaq is the 2nd most dominate post player ever. And he will definately be remembered as one of the elite players ever to play.
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jun 2 2006, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>4 Championships will earn him atleast top 7 all time.</div>So Robert Horry is easily top 7 in your mind, I'm guessing?
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... 4 championships will earn Shaq top 7. Robert Horry was a bench player on all 7 of his championships. Shaq was Finals MVP for all 3, and he has dominated the League in the post for 13 years now..jeez..smart ass
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... Shaq is one of the best Centers ever to come into the game, his sheer size and ability have put him at the top. He's done so much for the Magic, Lakers, and the Heat. He is an amazing post player, i'm sure Dwayne Wade will get alot of credit for the Heat win but Shaq's name will be thrown in their for sure. You even posted the stats of how Shaq effected the teams he's been on. He'll be remembered.
Re: If Shaquille' O Neal wins another championship this season... With how Wade has been playing these playoffs i wouldn't be suprised to see alot of credit go to him instead of Shaq. But, they both deserve so much for getting us to the Finals for the first time!
