<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, the Quran does not take kindly to "disbelievers," but what you are failing to see is that the Quran teaches us not to go around killing people UNLESS our religion is being oppressed and persecuted, and we are only allowed to use violence IF EVERY PEACEFUL ATTEMPT has failed, and there is ABSOLUTELY no other choice.</div> Your seeing this in YOUR point of view. Many Muslims in the middleeast feel they have no choice and they have no other alternatives because the USA is on their land in Saudi Arabia and that Islam is under attack. See how this can be interpreted differently by different people? What you said above is blury and in my mind justifies what a lot of terrorists are doing, thank god the bible doesn't include anything like that.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigMo763 @ Jun 18 2006, 05:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, I know you didn't imply that, but there have been numerous people on this board, and some of them have posted in this topic, that have previously made clear their belief that Islam is evil, and those were the people whose my post was directed towards.Obviously the number of Islamic extremists doesn't equal the number of Christian extremists, but the fact of the matter remains that there ARE Christian terrorist attacks that have taken place throughout history, and that still take place today, yet they aren't given the same media coverage that the Muslim terrorists are given because of the fact that we are currently at War with the Islamic terrorists. To deny that Christians have never committed terrorist actions, or that they still don't, is just plain ignorant. Every religion has shed blood, and every religion has blood on their hands.The Muslim supporters may be higher in number, but that doesn't mean that Islam is an evil religion by sheer nature. I also don't think it is fair to say that Islam is evil simply because a small portion of the religion's followers commit terrorist actions... especially when the vast majority of the religion's followers are peaceful. If the roots of Islam, and the religion in general, was/is indeed evil, then wouldn't the vast majority of Muslims be out killing and committing terrorist acts? If Islam is truly evil, then why is it that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful? Those are two questions that I would really like BCB to answer...</div> I never said Islam is evil, i'm just pointing out that it's not a peacefull religion and that text in the Quran justifies terrorist acts, which it does. I believe most people are generally good, most muslims are not 100% faithfull and would never commit jihad, most muslims just think that killing is wrong and wouldn't do it. Like with killing disbelievers who are 'attacking islam'...it depends on the person, if that person believes we are attacking islam or not...Islam is not evil but if you ask most people if they want to blow up buildings and spend their lives in prison or be killed, most people would choose not. Again I don't think Islam is evil.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ReppinTheD @ Jun 17 2006, 05:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>lol not to get of subject or anything; this is a great debate, but its 1:40 am and im goin to sleep - i'll get back to you though asap...lol</div> Figures....
BigMo came back with a response for me - would you like me to repeat what he said for you? because he summed it up perfectly.
<span style="color:#CC0000">EDITED - If you can't follow the rules of this board you will not be allowed to post here and after that comment on BBW. This board is for good debate and it's members like you who takes things over the line.I've stated my opinion and i've been respectfull, this is a place for debate but that won't be tolerated. - BCB -</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Jun 18 2006, 08:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your seeing this in YOUR point of view. Many Muslims in the middleeast feel they have no choice and they have no other alternatives because the USA is on their land in Saudi Arabia and that Islam is under attack. See how this can be interpreted differently by different people?What you said above is blury and in my mind justifies what a lot of terrorists are doing, thank god the bible doesn't include anything like that.</div>I know that is my point of view, and that is the CORRECT point of view. I'm trying to point out that what the terrorists in the Middle East are doing and saying IS NOT ISLAM, and thus Islam should not be given a bad reputation simply due to the idiots in the Middle East who think the Quran says it's alright for them to go around killing everybody.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I never said Islam is evil, i'm just pointing out that it's not a peacefull religion and that text in the Quran justifies terrorist acts, which it does. I believe most people are generally good, most muslims are not 100% faithfull and would never commit jihad, most muslims just think that killing is wrong and wouldn't do it. Like with killing disbelievers who are 'attacking islam'...it depends on the person, if that person believes we are attacking islam or not...Islam is not evil but if you ask most people if they want to blow up buildings and spend their lives in prison or be killed, most people would choose not. Again I don't think Islam is evil.</div>Alright, but you still haven't answered my question. You simply said that most Muslims are indeed peaceful, but you failed to say WHY that is so considering your opinion that Islam "is not a peaceful religion." If Islam "is not a peaceful religion," then why are most Muslims peaceful? I mean, if Islam really isn't a peaceful religion, then wouldn't the majority of Muslims be out killing, bombing, and comitting other acts of terrorism? But they aren't... why is that? Common sense would say that if somebody is studying and learning a religion that "is not peaceful," then they wouldn't be peaceful either, right?Also, a lot of people focus a lot of attention on the passages in the Quran that appear to advocate violence (not singling you out BCB, because I've seen seen various people do this, and just wanted to point it out), but there is no mention of the numerous requirements of Muslims to be kind and generous to the poor, etc.
Not really. You said that you agree that most Muslims are peaceful, although my question was WHY are most Muslims peaceful despite your claim that Islam "is not a peaceful religion?" I mean, people are peaceful even though they practice a religion that is not peaceful? I find that to be quite the contradiction...
Hey, lots of people call Muslims terrorists because they're are about 10,000 probably... way less, really...why can't I call America or UK criminals and ignorant with all of the crime statistics in the western world?America had about 1.5 million crimes in 2004... (tickets included, but still)wait nvmim not sure bout da # actually
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Waqas @ Jun 20 2006, 06:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, lots of people call Muslims terrorists because they're are about 10,000 probably... way less, really...why can't I call America or UK criminals and ignorant with all of the crime statistics in the western world?America had about 1.5 million crimes in 2004... (tickets included, but still)wait nvmim not sure bout da # actually</div> 10,000 terrorists? Are you kidding me? In Iraq we have probably killed close to that number in the last 4 years. Yeah, their are 10,000 terrorists in the world right now...wait...in Iraq right now. What does America's crime statistics have anything to do with this? At least in the western world our goverment gives us basic freedom.
OK, BigMo, these are my final thoughts- basically, you say that the terrorists that represent only 5% of the Muslim population (which I think is not a correct number), are twisting the words of the Koran. Yet, in the same breath, you admit that the Koran says you can kill unbelievers. If I was a Muslim fundamentalist (note -- fundamentalist, not extremist), I could easily take those words and justify these actions. You might it call it twisting, but I don't think so, really not at all.You also say that Christians have the same percentage of terrorists. I say that no terrorists are connected with Christianity. Why? Basically, because no where does the Bible say you can kill an unbeliever, whether after the peaceful situations have failed or no.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, lots of people call Muslims terrorists because they're are about 10,000 probably... way less, really...why can't I call America or UK criminals and ignorant with all of the crime statistics in the western world?America had about 1.5 million crimes in 2004... (tickets included, but still)wait nvmim not sure bout da # actually</div>You're just a joke. At least BigMo actually talks, err, types coherently.
Crime is not the same thing as terrorism, especially in America. If you get sent to jail for money laundering, is that terrorism? Uh, no.And if 5% of Christians were terrorist, America would not be very stable, lemme' tell you.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yozo @ Jun 21 2006, 01:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>OK, BigMo, these are my final thoughts- basically, you say that the terrorists that represent only 5% of the Muslim population (which I think is not a correct number), are twisting the words of the Koran. Yet, in the same breath, you admit that the Koran says you can kill unbelievers. If I was a Muslim fundamentalist (note -- fundamentalist, not extremist), I could easily take those words and justify these actions. You might it call it twisting, but I don't think so, really not at all.</div>First of all, I just want to clarify that I am not trying to justify what the terrorists are doing, because I certainly think it is pathetic and despicable, especially because they are ruining the image of our great religion. I'm simply trying to point out that what they are saying, preaching and following is the TRUE message of Islam... that is their idiotic interpretation. I'm just saying that it isn't fair to label Islam (in general) as 'evil' or 'not peaceful' because of the terrorists' actions, nor is it fair to label all Muslims and followers of Islam 'evil' or 'not peaceful' because of the actions of the terrorists. There are always rotten apples in every group in life... that is reality.Yes, I said the Quran says you can kill unbelievers, but it is absolutely AMAZING how you don't read the rest of what I said. The Quran permits killing disbelievers IF THEY ATTACK/PERSECUTE US/OUR RELIGION, AND ALL OUR PEACEFUL ATTEMPTS AT HALTING THIS ATTACK/PERSECUTION FAIL. Also note that most, if not all, the passages that involve killing disbelievers are tied to that last thought. Also, most, if not all, of the passages that involve Allah "punishing" disbelievers is tied to the afterlife (heaven/hell concept).Yes, there are passages in the Quran that can be "interpreted" by the terrorists to mean that they should go out and kill all non-Muslims, but the fact of the matter remains that that does not mean Islam is not a peaceful religion. The reason these terrorists are falsely interpreting the Quran is because of the way they were brought up and/or taught the Quran. There are THOUSANDS of passages in the Quran that stress the importance of forgiveness and mercy, and as I've said hundreds of times, in the Quran it states that Allah gives the DISBELIEVERS plenty of chances to repent and believe in Islam and in Allah, and they are spared from his wrath in the afterlife. They get a chance right after they die, when the two angels come down to their grave and ask them a series of questions (i.e. "Who is your creator?"; "Who is his messenger?"; etc.)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You also say that Christians have the same percentage of terrorists. I say that no terrorists are connected with Christianity. Why? Basically, because no where does the Bible say you can kill an unbeliever, whether after the peaceful situations have failed or no.</div>It doesn't matter whether or not it says in the Bible that you can or cannot kill an unbeliever, the fact of the matter remains that as long as somebody commits a crime or an act of terrorism "in the name of God or Christianity," that act is considered to be tied to Christianity in the eyes of the perpetrator(s). Same goes with Islam... the terrorists are falsely interpreting and using the Quran to justify their evil intentions... If somebody goes out and shoots a doctor who provides abortions and says they shot him because God does not advocate abortions (or something to that extent), that is considered an act of terrorism tied to Christianity (if they are Christian). And that has happened plenty of times in the US.Also, just because there are not mentions of Christian terrorism in this country does not mean that Christian terrorism does not exist in another country. Over the course of the world's history, there has been Christian terrorism, and it still goes on today. Every religion has blood on it's hands, including Christianity, Judaism and Islam. That is just a fact.And I'm still awaiting the answer to the following question BCB (or anybody else): If Islam is not a peaceful religion, then why are the vast majority of it's followers peaceful? If Islam truly isn't peaceful, then wouldn't the vast majority of its followers not be peaceful either?
But terrorists feel they are being attacked by America and their is no way to stop us...so they are being supported by the Quran.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BCB @ Jun 22 2006, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But terrorists feel they are being attacked by America and their is no way to stop us...so they are being supported by the Quran.</div>But they did not try to peacefully stop and/or work out the problem they have/had with the US and it's ideas and cultures. They skipped all that, and went straight to the killing, which begs the question whether they actually studied the Quran or not (in my opinon I really don't think they did).Again, there is only a group of people that are doing this... it's not as if every Muslims is terrorizing the world. If every Muslim, or the vast majority of them, were terrorizing the world and what not then I would buy the argument that Islam isn't peaceful. But the vast majority of Muslims are living peacefully, and look down upon these terroists and how they are disgracing our religion... thus it is truly hard for me to believe how anybody can view Islam as not being peaceful when the vast majority of its followers are peaceful.Can I see why the terrorists would interpret the Quran that way? Yeah, I actually can, but since I've been taught the Quran and it's teachings for many years, I know what Islam is really all about... and we don't learn to grow up and kill all the non-believers. The problem with the terrorists is that they probably were not given the same knowledge and education regarding the religion and it's true teachings. Its pretty much a situation where somebody somewhere (a long time ago) misinterpreted the Quran, or began preaching it and twisting its meaning in a way to justify their evil and sadistic plans... and over time his following continued to grow and has become a large problem in the world today.However, that does not mean that they are advocating the TRUE meaning of Islam... which is the point I have been trying to make all along. Just because the terrorists are killing and what not, it is WRONG to lump all Muslims into one category and start labeling them all as being terrorists or as not being peaceful, etc. That is what bothers me... and it also bothers me when people say that Islam is evil or isn't peaceful, because I don't understand how anybody could think Islam isn't peaceful when the vast majority of it's followers are indeed peaceful and accept the ideals of Western democracy and civilization.Also, Yozo, you said the Bible does not advocate killing? Check this site out: http://www.evilbible.com/Obviously I haven't read all of it or anything, nor am I an expert on the Bible or Christianity for that matter, but I just thought that was an interesting little site.
Yozo... according to you the Bible doesn't say anything about killing nonbelievers, right?Then what is this:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Burn Nonbelievers"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)</div>
