<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Jun 20 2006, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Back to my old posts, If Dampier shoots a higher free throw percentage he is a better player then Shaq? Also, it still leads me to believe you are making this case because of what he has done in the playoffs this year, you say I'am caught in the "LeBron hype" but I think it's actually the other way around.</div>Once again, I have been saying Wade is better ALL year. And yes, FT % does matter. Look at the video of when Bron missed game tying free throw vs Denver with less than a second left this year. So you don't think FG % is important? 3 pt % isn't very important as both don't shoot many of them, but FG % and FT % are huge for players, especially players that go to line over 10x a game like bron and Wade do.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Wade is also shooting 77% from the line in the finals, thats not a great number for a guard to be shooting. Yes, Bron shoots a worst percentage but he is a forward. Your 6-19 shooting is just an IF, had Wade not shot that percentage against Detroit they would've been equal on field goal percentage, but thats just another if.</div>HAHAHA! You are telling me now about if's after you said, "What IF Bron was on Heat? What IF Bron was in Finals, would he be better than Wade? What IF Wade didn't shoot that 61% throughout an entire series?" My what if applied to one game, his worst shooting performance of playoffs that was totally out of character.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>But he isn't taking another shot, while Wade may be more effiecent LeBron is still the better scorer. He is the better rebounder and puts up more assists per game. Before I can call Wade the better player, I would like to see him do it without Shaq, I don't count the first season either because he wasn't the leader of that team.</div>No, Bron ISN'T the better scorer. So you're saying AI is better scorer than Bron because he takes about 4 more FGA's per game and has 2PPG more? If not, then you can't say Bron is a better scorer than Wade, either.No, Bron doesn't put up more APG. Wade put up 6.7APG to Bron's 6.6APG. And don't say Wade is expected to because he is a guard as I can counter that with saying Bron should be grabbing more RPG because he is 4 inches taller.He DID prove it without Shaq last year in playoffs. When Shaq was out for 2 games in semi's, Wade had career playoff nights with 40 point game and led team to sweep. He proved it when Shaq was out late last year, hitting GW towards end of season vs I believe the Magic (could have been NO or another team, but definately from south). He proved in playoffs all throughout last year and now this year that he can carry the Heat and do his thing with an unhealthy Shaq. He has proven that. Unlike the Laker years where Kobe was 2nd fiddle to Shaq, Shaq is now 2nd fiddle to Wade, and Wade is THE primary player for the Heat, and Shaq is more of an X-factor than THE factor. Hell, he is doing it against Dallas right now, as they aren't even giving Shaq touches last few minutes of game, just letting Wade do his thing, and yes he is getting double teamed and still doing it.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='94865' date='Jun 20 2006, 01:27 AM']So you don't think FG % is important? [/quote]I don't recall saying that, I said free throws and 3 point percentage aren't as important. The only one I said was the field goal percentage, I never said if he'd be on the Heat OR if he was in the finals, I said you can't discredit LeBron for not being in the finals. LeBron put .1 apg less then Wade, woah what a difference there. LeBron also outrebounded Wade by more then 1 rebound, unlike .1 assists. Along with 6 turnovers in game 3 and 8 turnovers in game 4. Another interesting comment here, Wade played horrible against the Pistons due to an "injury" right? Well did he not play well against them this year with the flu? Could it not have been him choking more so then him being injured? Yeah because LeBron never hit any gamewinners during the regular season. Even if Wade did hit a gamewinner or two during the regular season, what was his record without Shaq? I don't want to hear any excuses about it, he couldn't lead them without him during the regular season and especially struggled against the teams in the west. Of course there not going to Shaq in the late game, it's common sense. Do you want Shaq going to the free throw line or Wade going to the free throw line? Wade has been getting double teamed sure but hasn't Shaq been the one who has 2-3 bodies on him every game? The series against the Bulls proved that he DID need Shaq, 45% and they were forced to exploit there weak inside presence since Wade couldn't handle the perimeter defense. So if Wade goes 2-10 with 40 points it's a good scoring night? Like you said yourself field goal percentage DOES matter and Wade has yet to prove he can shoot a high percentage against a good perimeter defensive team.
You still said Bron was bette rin every major category, but FG % is a major category, as are FT %, TO's, etc... Agreed, and I don't discredit Bron for never being in Finals.....but if he couldn't do in playoffs what Wade is doing in Finals, that is a pretty good indication he still isn't on that level yet. You could say same for T-Mac/Kobe arguement. Don't turn that around on me. You said he had more APG, I proved you wrong, no need to bi*ch. And Wade had better FG and FT %, to go along with more SPG and BPG, whoch is amazing considering Bron's size and athelticism. Last year he did play well against Pistons, but not amazingly. He didn't choke in the last game, and actually played pretty well. he also played poorly this year in the game he had the flu. Up until last week of season, he was 2 for 18 lifetime in game winning situations....give me a break already. And once again, Bron's record without Larry Hughes for the first months or so was way under .500, and Shaq totally changes your offensive gameplan while Hughes flows with offense. He still did have 25PPG with only 19FGA's and had over 7APG, so while his FG % went down, his game didn't drop off at all really like Bron's did. And LA and Orlando used to go to Shaq in final minutes, but he just isn't as reliable as he once was, not because of free throw %. So Pistons aren't a good perimeter defensive team? Jason Kidd isn't on all first team defensive, right? Seriously dude, just stop. If Wade gets his points and shoots under 20FGA's, it's a good scoring night.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Name on one star on Hakeem's team when they won. Otis thorpe? Vernon maxwell? Kenny smith? Sam cassel? There not stars. Their role players. Hakeem won without a star on his side. So did duncan in 2003, you had a burnt out robinson and you had an inconsistent parker. Duncan's playoffs stats were monster like, 24-15-5 and he nearly had a quadroaple* in game 6.Those two guys won championship/s without a star on their side, could be more.</div>I would much rather have 3-4 good role players and 1 star on my team than 2 stars. You do not need 2 all stars to win a championship.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='94909' date='Jun 20 2006, 08:32 AM']You still said Bron was bette rin every major category, but FG % is a major category, as are FT %, TO's, etc...[/quote]LeBron was second in the league in shot attempts, so yes his field goal percentage is going to be slightly lower. Sure Wade had a greater free throw percentage but I still don't see the importance of that, you don't have to make free throws to be a good player. Wilt was never a good free throw shooter, neither was Russel. Ok LeBron doesn't have more assists but being .1 assists behind isn't a bad thing. He also averaged more rebounds so he is the better all around player. Steals and blocks are both defensive stats, we all know LeBron can't play defense. If you are talking about game 7 you have to be absolutely joking, 7-20, 20 points and 5 turnovers? He was averaging 24 against his regular season 27, more assists but less rebounds and from 49% shooting to 44%. You think Jason Kidd can stop Wade? That has to be joke, Vince Carter maybe? Kidd despite being a first team defensive player cannot guard Wade or probably any other star guard very well. Yes the Pistons are a good perimeter team but it was more of Detroit not playing well then Wade playing good. So if he shoots 1-20 and makes 20 free throws it's a good scoring night? It might be a good scoring night but definitely not a good shooting night. You have always said Wade was the better player? You keep saying Wade is a better scorer which is not true, because he is more effiecent? Well LeBron is more effiecent then Kobe so that makes him a better scorer as well?
Honestly, Wade has had the better playoff performances and the more clutch moments. Otherwise I really think Lebron is the better overall player when it is down to regualr games and normal situatutions.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wade3 @ Jun 20 2006, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Honestly, Wade has had the better playoff performances and the more clutch moments. Otherwise I really think Lebron is the better overall player when it is down to regualr games and normal situatutions.</div>How? Lebron James did just was well as Wade has done in the playoffs.Lebron's playoff stats: 30.8 ppg, 5.8 apg, 8.1 rpgWade's playoff stats: 28.1 ppg, 5.8 apg, 5.7 rpg.Lebron has been VERY clutch also. He hit 2 game winners in the same series against Washington. He also scored around the same points as Wade against the Detroit Pistons who are the best defensive team in the league.
[quote name='Heatfan32' post='94950' date='Jun 20 2006, 11:52 AM']LeBron was second in the league in shot attempts, so yes his field goal percentage is going to be slightly lower. Sure Wade had a greater free throw percentage but I still don't see the importance of that, you don't have to make free throws to be a good player. Wilt was never a good free throw shooter, neither was Russel.[/quote]They are all cetners, Bron and Wade generally are players with ball in last few seconds, and if both are fouled, I'd rather Wade go to foul line and hit 2 clutch free throws, as Bron has shown in past he chokes when it comes to game winning free throws. And yes, since both go to line around 10x a game, FT % is very important. How can you be a better all around player if you can't play defense? Why the HELL do you think so many people think MJ was a better overall player than Magic Johnson, despite less APG and RPG? Not all that much worse than Bron vs Pistons, who averaged more than 5 TO's per game against Pistons. And remember, Wade had knee strain, sinustis, flue, etc... And he played well for most part, but ran out of gas towards the end. 25PPG (round .7 to 1, so 25PPG). And yes he had less RPG, but more SPG and BPG, to go along with 89% FT shooting, which is why he took 3 less shots than Bron in Pistons series but still came up with only 1PPG less. While his PPG and FG % was down, I felt he was just as efficient in scoring as he was in regular season. You're kidding me, right? I went to Nets vs Suns back in March, what happenned to nash? 0-6 from field. Night before, held Chauncey to under 10pts. He and Wade are both same height and while Wade is stronger, both way similar. Both are very fast and great at changing direction. Kidd is first team all defense, so yes, he has the ability. problem is no one person can stop Wade because of his ballhandling mixed with strength and speed. It takes a team effort, very similar to bron in that aspect. Great perimeter defense with Hamilton/Billuips/Prince (who is the reason Bron played poorly against Pistons). Yes, good scoring night. That is usually why him/Bron/Nowitzki/Kobe always have huge scoring games, from the line. Free throws can make up for bad shooting, especially if you are taking same amount of shots as in season but have bad %, yet the FT bring up PPG, thus being just as efficient. Yes, since the beginning of the season. No, Kobe can shoot 3 much better than Bron, more efficient from FT line, and has that killer instinct to take over games and go on HUGE streaks like Wade. Bron doesn't shoot the 3 much better than Wade, and it isn't a big part of his game. What Wade does to defending guards is what bron does to defending fowards...drive, hit midrange shot, finish to get the and 1, or just get fouled and go to line because he is too fast and too strong for opposing player.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='95013' date='Jun 20 2006, 03:38 PM']They are all cetners, Bron and Wade generally are players with ball in last few seconds, and if both are fouled, I'd rather Wade go to foul line and hit 2 clutch free throws, as Bron has shown in past he chokes when it comes to game winning free throws. And yes, since both go to line around 10x a game, FT % is very important.[/quote]There are plenty of guards who can't make free throws, as well as forwards including Rasheed and Gerald Wallace. It's not like LeBron is a horrible shooter either, he makes aproximately 3/4 of his free throw attempts Simple because he was the best scorer ever. Magic played the point guard so it was obvious he will have more assists over Jordan. Wade isn't a spectacular defender either, hes isn't like Kobe who can go on lock down mode. Yeah it's great that he can shut down point guards but Wade is a shooting guard. Besides the finals, Wade has the best shooting performance against New Jersey then in the entire playoffs, so now Kidd can not guard him. Not to mention he can be streaky at the line, he went from 89% in the first round to 79% in the second round and is shooting 77% against Dallas. Not according to this quote This was in Febuary, around the All-Star break. LeBron is better at attacking the rim the Kobe, Kobe tends to settle alot for midrange jumpers and for the 3 point. Your right Kobe also has an amazing 3 point shot: 05-06 season: 34%04-05 season: 33% 03-04 season: 32% Fact: Kobe has never shot over 40% from the three point line.
[quote name='Heatfan32' post='95016' date='Jun 20 2006, 04:02 PM']There are plenty of guards who can't make free throws, as well as forwards including Rasheed and Gerald Wallace. It's not like LeBron is a horrible shooter either, he makes aproximately 3/4 of his free throw attempts[/quote]Nontheless, because he takes less FTA's per game and has worse %, it just adds to Wade being a more efficient scorer. MJ WAS best scorer ever, but what seperated him from Magic was his defense. Magic averaged over 11APG for his career and his FG % was better than MJ's for career. Magic was better overall offensive player, but MJ was the much better defender, and could take over at ends of games and rip your heart out. Those same reasons are why I pick Wade over Bron. Even though Wade isn't a DPOY candidate yet, he is more than a hair or 2 better than Bron at D. Once again, NO one can guard Wade individually. But iff Kidd can shutdown 20PPG scorers in Billuips and Nash, it is saying something how Wade just burned him. You have to make it a team effort like Pistons used to do with Kobe. The Bulls are the only team to do that against Wade, and when he didn't have a good game they lost the game. But because he got to line so much and his FT % importance was shown, he still got his points in same efficient manner. He also got ball to teammates when need be, which shows increase in APG. And as for Dallas, they just haven't been able to stop Wade for entire game, minus Game 2 which was a very rare bad shooting game and overall efficient game by Wade. That can be attributed to increased FTA in the 2 series where he his FT % was under 80%. His health has also increasingly gotten worse over playoffs, but he still hits them when needed, and hovering around 80% is very good. It has been up and down with me all year. In beginning of April, before playoffs, I switched back to Wade. I am sure I will switch between Bron and Wade next year again, because this debate is a very, VERY close one, and I can make an arguement for each side and debate it to the death like I am here. FACT: Kobe shot nearly 200 more 3ptr's this season than LeBron, and still shot 2% better. Kobe is just a better shooter, no matter where he is on floor, and gets to line more than Wade and Bron. Kobe is the best scorer in league (with a healthy T-Mac being very close 2nd). Like Wade, Kobe will take your heart out throughout game with huge streaks when team needs it most and can explode for those 20pt quarters at end of games like Wade.
If Wade is better then LeBron it's only because of what he did this year in the playoffs and how LeBron performed against Detroit. I still think LeBron will be the better player and will improve his defense as well.LeBron or Kobe aren't the best three point shooters either but Kobe is a better 3 point shooter then Wade and LeBron.As of June 20 2006 I'll leave it at Wade is the better player.Had you asked me this question before the playoffs I would have gone with LeBron again.The best part of this debate was that I was going against my favorite player
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Jun 20 2006, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If Wade is better then LeBron it's only because of what he did this year in the playoffs and how LeBron performed against Detroit. I still think LeBron will be the better player and will improve his defense as well.LeBron or Kobe aren't the best three point shooters either but Kobe is a better 3 point shooter then Wade and Kobe.As of June 20 2006 I'll leave it at Wade is the better player.Had you asked me this question before the playoffs I would have gone with LeBron again.The best part of this debate was that I was going against my favorite player </div>I am done with this debate, it is very fun, but it really is comparing apples and oranges. They play very similar styles, but their size difference makes them better in different areas. Right now, I feel Wade is better scorer, better playmaker, better defender, and has the "it" factor that Bron doesn't in terms of ripping out your heart whenever he feels like it. Bron is better passer, slightly more versatile scorer, better rebounder, and more vocal leader. I can make a case for either of them, but these playoffs have been a reminder of why I felt Wade was better back in April.
And once again, can't be answered. How would have Lakers been with 2002-2003 T-Mac? How would Wilt fare in today's NBA? etc...And once again, I feel Wade is a better player for most of the same I believe Kobe is best player in league right now...good defense, great scorer, has the "it" (or "Jordan") factor that bron doesn't have yet.
And add a championship and Finals MVP trophy to Wade's legacy, not to mention one of the greatest Finals performances of all time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 21 2006, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And add a championship and Finals MVP trophy to Wade's legacy, not to mention one of the greatest Finals performances of all time.</div> :worthy: Until I see LeBron win a finals MVP I'm sticking with Wade has the better player here.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Jun 21 2006, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>:worthy: Until I see LeBron win a finals MVP I'm sticking with Wade has the better player here.</div>I wouldn't say flat out wade but wow this comparision became very hard.
I think LeBron is still the better player just because a) he's two years younger and he's the complete package. Wade's spectacular and all, but he also has the better team. LeBron's going to get his (nineteen) rings in due time. I'd love to have either of them (don't resign, Dwayne! Think what it would be like to line up next to Dirk!) but I think for the future I'd rather have LeBron, although we haven't seen yet if he can match Wade's clutch ability.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo_061 @ Jun 20 2006, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nitro, answer this.How good would the heat be with lebron? Your answer lies there/</div>THEY WOULD BE BETTER!!!!! Lebron James is the best player in the NBA. Do you honestly think that Lebron wouldnt be doing the exact same thing if he was in the NBA finals. Of course he would be. There is a fine line between Lebron and Dwade. I can't wait until next year when Lebron absoltley dominates Wade in every aspect of the game and people start to realize that this comparison is stupid. Lebron isn't even playing right now so i guess you are forgetting how good he really is.
