<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jun 22 2006, 07:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>THEY WOULD BE BETTER!!!!! Lebron James is the best player in the NBA. Do you honestly think that Lebron wouldnt be doing the exact same thing if he was in the NBA finals. Of course he would be. There is a fine line between Lebron and Dwade. I can't wait until next year when Lebron absoltley dominates Wade in every aspect of the game and people start to realize that this comparison is stupid. Lebron isn't even playing right now so i guess you are forgetting how good he really is.</div>You speak the truth except for Lebron being the best. The people on this board flip flop every single day, one day lebron is the king the next Wade is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jun 21 2006, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>THEY WOULD BE BETTER!!!!! Lebron James is the best player in the NBA. Do you honestly think that Lebron wouldnt be doing the exact same thing if he was in the NBA finals. Of course he would be. There is a fine line between Lebron and Dwade. I can't wait until next year when Lebron absoltley dominates Wade in every aspect of the game and people start to realize that this comparison is stupid. Lebron isn't even playing right now so i guess you are forgetting how good he really is.</div>No, he wouldn't. If Bron chokes so bad in season and didn't totally trample the Wizards despite their crappy defense, he couldn't do it on biggest stage on Earth. And no...Wade is better scorer, better playmaker, and better defender. He also is better winner and has killer instinct.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 21 2006, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, he wouldn't. If Bron chokes so bad in season and didn't totally trample the Wizards despite their crappy defense, he couldn't do it on biggest stage on Earth. And no...Wade is better scorer, better playmaker, and better defender. He also is better winner and has killer instinct.</div>He did trample their defense. 35.7 points per game, 7.5 rebounds per game, 5.7 assists per game. That right there is domination.Wade being a better scorer is not right either. You can bring up his performance in the Finals, but the fact is, he had his worst FG% of the year in the Finals. Only 47%, a 15% drop from his ECF performance. He shot the ball almost 20 times a game, and had every call going his way. Game 6 was horrendous for Dallas...Wade got every call.To point them out, his charge on Devin Harris, he blatantly lowered his shoulder and bull dozed him and then on Marquis Daniels, where he was untouched and there was a foul. And when he went past Dirk and Dirk got called for a reach when he didn't even touch him, but Wade pushed him out of the way..those were all awful calls.Yes, luck does help, but Wade is completely over hyped. You cannot debate the fact that Shaquille O'Neal at LEAST draws more attention from teams than Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Shaq is a man that if left one on one, he will basically score or get to the basket 55-60% of the time. Larry Hughes is a good defender, but is basically a guy who plays his hardest for the money, and when he got that huge contract in Cleveland, he slacked. He was injured for most of the year and was never as good as he was in Washington. And Eric Snow/Damon Jones are not as good as Jason Williams either.We can't tell yet as a better winner. As far as I'm concerned, Shaq is the better winner. He's brought every team he's ever played for to the Finals, HE is the winner. Even though his scoring was minimal in this series, he still draws a lot of attention away from every other player, making the entire team better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BottomOfDaMapTX @ Jun 22 2006, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'd pick LeBron...He has the potential to be a top 3 player ever (alongside Kobe and MJ)...</div>um are you saying Kobe is the second best player ever??? Please tell me your not.Anyways yes what Wade did in the playoffs was amazing but I still pick lebron man. Wade mightve played incredible in the playoffs but he was getting jordan like treatment so that always helps. Still though the reason I take Lebron is he has the potential that wade doesnt have. This guy is the closest person in the league that could do what the Big O did. Wade doesnt have the potential to have a 30,10, and 10 season. lebron does. I mean imagine if lebron was in miami. they would be just as good a team as they are w/ dwade if not better. I mean nce lebron gets better at not choking which he is improving at and gets better at defense he'll be better than wade in almost every aspect.
i love dwade, hes a great player and i think hes going to continue to be a great player but i still think lebron is a better player, not by a lot but i think by a decent margin lebron is a better player just like any two players there are things lebron does better than wade and vice versa
I want to see how Dwyane Wade would play without his HOFer and all star supporting cast. Take Shaq off the Heat and let's see what he can do - the all star center takes a lot of pressure off of Wade's shoulders. Just give LeBron players on Miami like Walker, Posey, and Haslem and just give Cleveland the ring already. Wade gets all the help he needs, LeBron doesn't. Face it, Dwyane Wade is a great player but LeBron is better. Even he said that he would pick LeBron over himself.
Here's my take on the subject:This is almost impossible to compare, because both are better than eachother in totally opposite categories.In terms of statistics, LeBron is the better rebuonder, scorer, and passer. In terms of simple explination, LeBron has a wider offensive games, as well as simply being able to pass better, and rebound better.However, while the above categories are close, Dwayne Wade is absolutely superioir to LeBron in terms of defense. While LeBron is an average defender on a good night, Wade is a solid defender on an average night. During the playoffs, he held Rip Hamilton to 36%!!!In terms of clutch play, LeBron proved this off-season, that in terms of where they stand now, he is equal with Wade. Yes Wade turned his game up in the Conference Finals and Finals, but that is a matter of opportunity. LeBron took a Cavs team that depended on him for everything to 7 games against Detroit, along the way averaging something like 31, 7, and 5. He and Wade were both equally incredible in that regard.In terms of team success, Wade quite simply dominates. Conference Semis, Conference Finals, NBA Championship.So basically, LeBron has more individual skill, whereas Wade has utilized his ability on a bigger stage. He has won more, whereas LeBron has done more with less. Because of this, all I can say is that it is a tie.
I think dwayne is fantastic but i'm still hesistant to say that he is better than lebron. What lebron did in the playoffs with such crappy players besides him still puts him ahead of wade in my eyes.
I thought that as well, then I saw Dwayne was simply doing better in just as many aspects. I amean, think of it. He averaged something like 30 PPG against Detroit, on over 60% shooting. That is simply incredible
This thread has gone on? I hope Nitro didn't change any minds. I love Wade but this thread bothers me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 21 2006, 06:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, he wouldn't. If Bron chokes so bad in season and didn't totally trample the Wizards despite their crappy defense, he couldn't do it on biggest stage on Earth. And no...Wade is better scorer, better playmaker, and better defender. He also is better winner and has killer instinct.</div>alright dude...your arguement is bogus. First of all, look at what Lebron did in the late games against the wizards. he had two game winners yet you look over that because your bias agaisnt him. He had 2 in the same game. He had a triple double his first playoff game ever. How many players have ever done that in their career. NOT VERY MANY. If wade is a better scorer, please tell me why Lebron averaged over 3 points a game more than Dwayne did this season. Better playmaker? Its going to be easier to get more assists when you have a 350 pound beast on your team that would kill everybody. Shaq just had a bad NBA finals so i dont want to hear anything about you people saying that he isnt that good anymore. Also, Lebron has a better assist to turnover ration than Dwayne so i dont see how u can say he is a better playmaker. Dwayne Wade isnt even a good defender, its just that Lebron isnt a good one either. He is a better winner because his team is 100 times better. You people are stupid...im sorry.
I think Lebron James is better still. I mean how many players in the NBA average 30 pluse, 7, and all most 7. Wade did amazing in the playoffs, but so did Lebron. Just because Wade got a ring now does not mean he is better then Lebron.I just think people are jumping on Wade to fast comparing him to Jordan with what he did in the playoffs/finals.
To His Greatness-I feel Wade is better because:1 Far better leader. He did it in his rookie season by hitting GW's and playing amazing in playoffs. Bron didn't sniff playoffs until this past year.2) In the semi's, despite Shaq being only single teamed, he only averaged around his season averages. Wade was much better than seaosn, with a 70% FG percentage. Yes, he had Shaq this past year when they won the championship, but Shaq only averaged 13PPG in the Finals. Hell, look at mavsfan's sig to see basically a summary of how bad he played that series. They were down 0-2, and down 10pts in 4th quarter in game, and Wade put on a performance that will go down as one of the best in Finals history. He just DOMINATED. Next game, over 40 points. Game after that? Another 15pt 4th quarter, game tying/winning shots, and another superman performance. Next game? Another amazing game, and sealed it for the Heat. 3) More polished and consistent offensive game. He has better FG %, and while he can't shoot 3 as well as Bron, he has a better and more consistent midrange game, and equally as good/better driver. They are both great playmakers, but Bron tends to be sloppier at times.4) Better defender. Bron's biggest weakness. Wade isn't amazing defender, but he is good and solid.5) Better leader. Bron carries his team, but when Wade's team was down in Finals, he put team on his back and put on a historic performance throughout rest of series. He did it to Pistons 2 years in a row (2004-2005 Heat would have won if it wasn't for Wade's injury in Game 5).6) More clutch. You can't even argue this point. Wade has been clutch since his rookie season. Bron has had, as I recall, 4 game winners this past year. 2 in season, then the 2 against Wiz in playoffs (although one of those shouldn't count since it was an obvious travel and other was a total defensive lapse that was just embaressing, but it was still a GW).7) Better winner. Even if you say he isn't better leader due to him having Shaq (which I totally disagree on, as he is the much better player and is the one carrying the team, but whatever), he has done so much more than HoF like Ewing, Barkley, Wilkens, Miller, Pete Mavarich, Malone, Stockton, etc... have done in terms of winning. He went from 2nd round in first year, to conference finals in 2nd year, and championship in 3rd year with amazing performance (35PPG on 47% shooting, 8RPG, near 3SPG, and of course the amazing performances in the 4th quarters).All of those factors are the reasons why I put Wade over Bron.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jun 28 2006, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If wade is a better scorer, please tell me why Lebron averaged over 3 points a game more than Dwayne did this season. Better playmaker? Its going to be easier to get more assists when you have a 350 pound beast on your team that would kill everybody. Shaq just had a bad NBA finals so i dont want to hear anything about you people saying that he isnt that good anymore. Also, Lebron has a better assist to turnover ration than Dwayne so i dont see how u can say he is a better playmaker. Dwayne Wade isnt even a good defender, its just that Lebron isnt a good one either. He is a better winner because his team is 100 times better. You people are stupid...im sorry.</div>-He averaged more because of the team he is on. Wade has to deal with Shaq, Walker, and Williams demanding their shot attempts, amongst other. He also has better FG % and a much better midrange shot. It is no secret as to why Kobe averaged 36PPG to where he averaged over 30PPG only once with the Lakers squads with Shaq. -It's also harder to get more APG when that player only plays 60 games and your team already has a playmaker in Williams. Wade played more of the SG spot this year, whereas Bron played point forward.-Never said he wasn't good anymore. But he certainly wasn't effective for most of the playoffs (13PPG and 10RPG in Finals, that won't get it done), and this season was a huge dropoff. He doesn't demand nearly as much as attention as with Lakers, and when he played like crap in playoffs Wade pretty much single handedly defeated the team that beat the champs, despite being down 0-2. And in his best series, vs the Pistons, he was played one on one, so Wade didn't have that kind of benefit.-2nd half of the year, and in playoffs Bron was a TO machine (something like 4.5 TO's in playoffs). I think they are even, but Wade is more consistent (one game Bron will have 8 assists and 2 TO's, next 6 assists and 5 TO's) and more polished. Bron has better court vision, so it is fairly even for me.-Yes, his team is better. You can say same thing about MJ being better winner than most players, that he had a fantastic team with Pippen and those Bulls squads. You can say same thing about Kobe. Bottom line is this was Bron's first year in playoffs while Wade has never been knocked out before the 2nd round, he has a finals MVP, and if it wasn't for HIS injury, not Shaq's, they would have beaten Pistons in 2004-2005 conferance finals. If you honestly think this is even debatable there is no hope for you.
I hate having to do this again but...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Aug 2 2006, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To His Greatness-I feel Wade is better because:1 Far better leader. He did it in his rookie season by hitting GW's and playing amazing in playoffs. Bron didn't sniff playoffs until this past year.2) In the semi's, despite Shaq being only single teamed, he only averaged around his season averages. Wade was much better than seaosn, with a 70% FG percentage. Yes, he had Shaq this past year when they won the championship, but Shaq only averaged 13PPG in the Finals. Hell, look at mavsfan's sig to see basically a summary of how bad he played that series. They were down 0-2, and down 10pts in 4th quarter in game, and Wade put on a performance that will go down as one of the best in Finals history. He just DOMINATED. Next game, over 40 points. Game after that? Another 15pt 4th quarter, game tying/winning shots, and another superman performance. Next game? Another amazing game, and sealed it for the Heat. 3) More polished and consistent offensive game. He has better FG %, and while he can't shoot 3 as well as Bron, he has a better and more consistent midrange game, and equally as good/better driver. They are both great playmakers, but Bron tends to be sloppier at times.4) Better defender. Bron's biggest weakness. Wade isn't amazing defender, but he is good and solid.5) Better leader. Bron carries his team, but when Wade's team was down in Finals, he put team on his back and put on a historic performance throughout rest of series. He did it to Pistons 2 years in a row (2004-2005 Heat would have won if it wasn't for Wade's injury in Game 5).6) More clutch. You can't even argue this point. Wade has been clutch since his rookie season. Bron has had, as I recall, 4 game winners this past year. 2 in season, then the 2 against Wiz in playoffs (although one of those shouldn't count since it was an obvious travel and other was a total defensive lapse that was just embaressing, but it was still a GW).7) Better winner. Even if you say he isn't better leader due to him having Shaq (which I totally disagree on, as he is the much better player and is the one carrying the team, but whatever), he has done so much more than HoF like Ewing, Barkley, Wilkens, Miller, Pete Mavarich, Malone, Stockton, etc... have done in terms of winning. He went from 2nd round in first year, to conference finals in 2nd year, and championship in 3rd year with amazing performance (35PPG on 47% shooting, 8RPG, near 3SPG, and of course the amazing performances in the 4th quarters).All of those factors are the reasons why I put Wade over Bron.</div>Wow, I didn't know you could be better for the same reasons twice 1) He didn't take over as a "leader" during the Rookie Regular Season really, Eddie Jones and Lamar Odom were leading the pack that year and Dwyane hadn't begun to show up UNTIL the second series. And granted, he DID have an "amazing" performance in the playoffs and he DID hit the gamewinners....so? Those are all fillers and in no way even acknowledge you as a leader, LeBron has had to CARRY his team, Dwyane? Nope. And let's take a look why LeBron didn't "sniff" the playoffs until this season...2004- Came into a team that went 17-65 in '03. 2005- More revetalized Cavs team...Drew Gooden came, McInnis played more games, almost made the 8th seed but were beat out by the Nets. 2006- Made the playoffs as where his sidekick Hughes was nearly injured for the whole season, pushed the #1 Seeded Pistons to the very last game in the Semis, Game 5 some even expected the Cavs would take it. Dwyane? 2004- Wasn't even the "leader" 2005, 2006- Shaq 2) So WHAT if Shaq averaged a mere 13 or 40 pts...how is it going to affect Dwyane's play during the series? It was HIS JOB to take over the series and that was the primary reason he won the Finals MVP...seriously, the numbers don't even tell the whole story and the effect of Shaq during the Finals. He averaged 13..who gives a sh*t? Dwyane was doing most of the scoring anways...And since you seem so eager to use a teammate's numbers to prove them as playing terribly, how come you missed that Shaq averaged a dub? Hey, if your theory was so true, that'd be an AMAZING player during the playoffs right there! 3) Better FG% because Dwyane couldn't "hit a J" smoking weed, the man's game relies heavily on driving..midrange? Not in Wade's favor, the two are probably equal in that area, but LeBron is the superior SHOOTER in general. Playmaking is also obviously in James' favor, the passing is about enough to prove it but his VISION surpasses that of Dwyane's. 4) Good for him.5) Look at #1. 6) It's the NBA...what's a travel? Regardless, clutch ability isn't necessarily an eternal trait to put someone over that of a player like LeBron, not to mention James has already proven that he can perform well in the clutch, via this year's playoffs...7) Who gives a sh*t again? ALL throughout his career he's been surrounded by an amazing cast, 1st he didn't even lead his team, 2nd and 3rd year he had the "MDE"!! Look at the team LeBron's on and look what he's done with them. And also, ask yourself this question, HOW'D the Heat be without Dwyane? How'd they be without LeBron? Yeah, since your drawing up some of the most bullsh** characteristics to give in Dwyane's favor you might as well give "IMPORTANCE" to James, too.Your turn.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Aug 2 2006, 03:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> I hate having to do this again but...Wow, I didn't know you could be better for the same reasons twice 1) He didn't take over as a "leader" during the Rookie Regular Season really, Eddie Jones and Lamar Odom were leading the pack that year and Dwyane hadn't begun to show up UNTIL the second series. And granted, he DID have an "amazing" performance in the playoffs and he DID hit the gamewinners....so? Those are all fillers and in no way even acknowledge you as a leader, LeBron has had to CARRY his team, Dwyane? Nope. And let's take a look why LeBron didn't "sniff" the playoffs until this season...2004- Came into a team that went 17-65 in '03. 2005- More revetalized Cavs team...Drew Gooden came, McInnis played more games, almost made the 8th seed but were beat out by the Nets. 2006- Made the playoffs as where his sidekick Hughes was nearly injured for the whole season, pushed the #1 Seeded Pistons to the very last game in the Semis, Game 5 some even expected the Cavs would take it. Dwyane? 2004- Wasn't even the "leader" 2005, 2006- Shaq 2) So WHAT if Shaq averaged a mere 13 or 40 pts...how is it going to affect Dwyane's play during the series? It was HIS JOB to take over the series and that was the primary reason he won the Finals MVP...seriously, the numbers don't even tell the whole story and the effect of Shaq during the Finals. He averaged 13..who gives a sh*t? Dwyane was doing most of the scoring anways...And since you seem so eager to use a teammate's numbers to prove them as playing terribly, how come you missed that Shaq averaged a dub? Hey, if your theory was so true, that'd be an AMAZING player during the playoffs right there! 3) Better FG% because Dwyane couldn't "hit a J" smoking weed, the man's game relies heavily on driving..midrange? Not in Wade's favor, the two are probably equal in that area, but LeBron is the superior SHOOTER in general. Playmaking is also obviously in James' favor, the passing is about enough to prove it but his VISION surpasses that of Dwyane's. 4) Good for him.5) Look at #1. 6) It's the NBA...what's a travel? Regardless, clutch ability isn't necessarily an eternal trait to put someone over that of a player like LeBron, not to mention James has already proven that he can perform well in the clutch, via this year's playoffs...7) Who gives a sh*t again? ALL throughout his career he's been surrounded by an amazing cast, 1st he didn't even lead his team, 2nd and 3rd year he had the "MDE"!! Look at the team LeBron's on and look what he's done with them. And also, ask yourself this question, HOW'D the Heat be without Dwyane? How'd they be without LeBron? Yeah, since your drawing up some of the most bullsh** characteristics to give in Dwyane's favor you might as well give "IMPORTANCE" to James, too.Your turn.</div>1) LoL oops, didn't mean to put it twice. Anyway, Bron had healhty Boozer and healthy Z in 2003-2004, something Cavs didn't have previous year. He had good enough team in 2004-2005, and his team was like 5th seed at all star break. What happenned? COLLAPSE. I put a lot of that on Bron's shoulders, but by no means was it all his fault (coaching changes hurt their run too). Yes, wade has had Shaq, but this past year WADE carried the Heat, not Shaq. WADE was best player, not Shaq. WADE was floor general, not Shaq. And Shaq was leader of locker room, although that is shaky considering his ego and his demands.2) So what if he averaged a double double? It wasn't enough for the first 2 games, and it wasn't until Wade had his string of 4 amazing games that they actually started winning. 3) LoL. Anyway, Wade has a better midrange shot. That is why he played a LOT better than Bron did against the Pistons. Most of his shots were off 15-18ft jumpshots, not driving. And don't say Shaq took much pressure off him because he was played one on one by Wallace.6) Before the all star break he was something like 2 for 20 in GW shots. He hit 2 E-A-S-Y ones against the Wiz (one of them was a blatant travel), and hit 2 good ones in season. Doesn't take away from the fact how badly he tanked those shots in season. Missed GW free throw against Melo and Nugs, missed against Kobe, etc... Wade had that 17pt string agaisnt Pistons in seaosn, GW against Charolette and NY, game tiers and winners in Finals, etc.. And that isn't even taking into account his GW shots in his 1st 2 years while Bron only hit 2. 7) Wade led that Heat team in his rookie year in both rounds of playoffs, led team to 2nd round sweep of a better Wiz team than Bron faced WITHOUT Shaq for 3 games (not to mention having just as good numbers as Bron), did it against Pistons 2 years in a row with Shaq hurt/only getting 20/10, and did it on biggest stage in basketball. Bron hasn't led his team to SH*T until this year, where he had MORE than enough talent to get by the 1st round and give the struggling Pistons a scare. He had Z, Hughes, Marshall, Snow, Jones, Gooden, etc... That is enough to get by Gilbert and the defensively challenged Wizards.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='129673' date='Aug 2 2006, 02:37 AM'] 1) LoL oops, didn't mean to put it twice. Anyway, Bron had healhty Boozer and healthy Z in 2003-2004, something Cavs didn't have previous year. He had good enough team in 2004-2005, and his team was like 5th seed at all star break. What happenned? COLLAPSE. I put a lot of that on Bron's shoulders, but by no means was it his fault (coaching changes hurt their run too). Yes, wade has had Shaq, but this past year WADE carried the Heat, not Shaq. WADE was best player, not Shaq. WADE was floor general, not Shaq. And Shaq was leader of locker room, although that is shaky considering his ego and his demands.[/quote]..You put alot of it on LeBron but by no means was his fault? Oxymoron, anyone? Anyways, Wade doesn't "carry" the Heat especially when he was the Shaq by his side. "Carrying" a team would be Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson ( Finals), LeBron James, Kevin Garnett....get the drift? By no means does Dwyane even fit in that category. The best player is arguable but it floats in Dwyane's favor, and it also doesn't help your "Wade carries Heat" argument when he has the "best center" on his team. Oh and by the way, Z didn't really get "injured" when he played the SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES IN '03 AS IN '04 (you seriously ought to check NBA.com or something before posting) and Boozer DID play all the games in '03, he just started more in '04. But hey, if you call Carlos Boozer a "good enough teammate" to commander a 17-65 team to an automatic playoff in a ROOKIE SEASON, you might as well say Troy Hudson is a good player and is good enough to help a player see success in a playoff...oh wait, you already did! So what if he averaged 13 points? And you ever consider actually taking some blame off Diesel and lowering it to Dwyane? What happened when Shaq had a 17, 7 and 5 game? They lose in a near blow-out. What happened when Shaq played less than usual? Game lost in a 15-point deficit. Given, Dwyane DID have the best performance, paralled to none in the Finals, but since you love him so much for his Finals play, where was he the first two games? How come the Heat started winning when Shaq was PLAYING MORE and was racking up dubs left-and-right? sh*t, if you want to go ahead and criticize Shaq for playing bad in the Finals (which I disagree with) because of "averaging 13", why not give some faults to Dwyane too, to make him look like a "bad teammate"! You know what, while your at it, why not dig up some "bad games" of Chauncey Billups too, and then you can "imply" that he doesn't help the Pistons, too! Wade did better against Detroit? <u></u>But hey, you gotta love the folk tales, though. And, oh wait! When your being played one-on-one, your not helping teammates out??!! Really!!?? I was just thinking that the level that superstar centers like Shaq play in and the play and productivity he gives off would be enough, but APPARENTLY to you, only doubling, tripling, etc. means you'd make someone play better. Okay? I've already given the clutch ability to Dwyane...what's your point? Arguing against yourself? Anyways, the travel was not called so it STILL COUNTS regardless, they won that game didn't they? Dwyane has traveled millions of times (playoffs for example), but there were no calls, frankly the only traveling in the NBA that's really ever being done or called is when players go on the road . James has proven his worth in the clutch this postseason, so there's nothing really to be argued. Oh! So LeBron "carries" his team, but he's had legible teammates to get anywhere he wants in the playoffs, right? I don't know, I've always thought CARRYING A TEAM is when the majority of your teammates aren't really that good as some other playoff contending teams and YOUR THE MAIN ONE producing and doing the bulk of the work, but hey, once again you managed to create a new definition for a frequently used term, good job! Anyways, Dwyane's whole "leadership" and "main role" was not evident until the second round..against the Hornets his whole leadership role was still contested by Lamar, I could get the "oh so useful" stats if you want me to, too. Wasn't until the 2nd round when he started scoring more and getting the utmost touches on the team. Better Wizards team, huh? I guess Gilbert and Antawn (their main guys now) putting up much better numbers than the season before makes a better team, I guess going from the 10th to the 6th best offense, "makes a better team".... Don't get it twisted, Nitro, better players/talent isn't equivalent to a better team. And Shaq was gone for only 2 games, he was present in Game 1+2, and once again I suggest you check NBA.com more frequently :happy0144: .Shaq only getting 20/10!!??? Only? Are you serious? And then you remind me that he was injured! DUDE GOT 20/10! What more can you ask of?? Honestly, are you just trying to discredit Shaq or something when he puts up 20 and 10 WHILE INJURED!!?? And then you go ahead and say the #1 Seeded Pistons who would fly past the Bucks and actually STRUGGLE against the Cavs. And those guys are enough to breeze past the high paced offense of the Wizards? Really? Well, for one, Hughes was playing with a barely recovered finger, an incompetent Donyell who comes off the bench along with Damon Jones whose jobs really are to shoot the ball, and Snow who doesn't even really play the Point when LeBron is the floor general and Drew Gooden who was basically absent the whole series versus Washington except for Game 2, the only legible person you can give me would be Big Z (who also pulled a Drew Gooden) and he's less than enough to see success vs. a team like Washington. Seriously, you REALLY ought to have an editor before posting these things man.
[quote name='His Greatness' post='129712' date='Aug 2 2006, 05:28 AM']..You put alot of it on LeBron but by no means was his fault? Oxymoron, anyone? Anyways, Wade doesn't "carry" the Heat especially when he was the Shaq by his side. "Carrying" a team would be Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson ( Finals), LeBron James, Kevin Garnett....get the drift? By no means does Dwyane even fit in that category. The best player is arguable but it floats in Dwyane's favor, and it also doesn't help your "Wade carries Heat" argument when he has the "best center" on his team. Oh and by the way, Z didn't really get "injured" when he played the SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES IN '03 AS IN '04 (you seriously ought to check NBA.com or something before posting) and Boozer DID play all the games in '03, he just started more in '04. But hey, if you call Carlos Boozer a "good enough teammate" to commander a 17-65 team to an automatic playoff in a ROOKIE SEASON, you might as well say Troy Hudson is a good player and is good enough to help a player see success in a playoff...oh wait, you already did! [/quote]Wade carried that team in the last round of playoffs/Finals and during season with all of the injuries and such. Shaq was injured for over 20 games this season, and wasn't nearly as effective as last year. Z only started 20 or so games in 2002-2003, and the 2 seasons before that he played 6 games and 23 games. Boozer started only 50 or so games the previous season. Those 2 players are above average in the NBA, and in the VERY weak Eastern conferance. Boozer averaged 16PPG and 12RPG in Bron's rookie season, and Z had 17-18PPG with 8RPG. Those 3 should have been enough. Considering Bron was a rookie, I give him a lot of slack, but the season after I put a lot of the blame on him, but it wasn't totally his fault. Wade scored 28, had 6 reboounds and 6 assists, and 4 steals in game 1. Shaq was considerably below his average. What killed Miami in that game was NO scoring outside of those 2 and Antwan Walker, and only 6 people total on the board. Next game Shaq was outplayed by Eric Dampier, who didn't even start. Next game Shaq had a decent game for his stands with 16/11, but they were still down by 10 or so with 5min to go before Wade blew up and won them the game (Wade had 27pts going into 4th quarter so it wasn't like he wasn't getting the job done before that). Then of course rest is history with Wade scoring 36, 42, and 36 again to seal the championship.Billups didn't have a bad SERIES against Lakers when they won their championship, now did he? Nope. Finals MVP, and above his averages. I expect more from a player with 3 championships and who basically admits to taking it lightly in season for the post season. He still played much better against Detroit. Of course his PPG won't be higher due to the team he is on being better than Bron's Cavs, but he still was nearly 20% better from the field (through 6 games he averaged 29PPG and on better FG %, last game he was benched in 4th quarter and had flu) . He helped out Wade for sure when it came to carrying the load, but he didn't get the benefit of taking actual defensive pressure away. Shaq played very well in the series (well, not by his standards and not what heat were expecting from the "MDE"), but Wade played stellar and reason they won. He still hasn't proven nearly as much in clutch as Wade has, and therefor I give Wade the nod. End discussion right there. Once again, don't put words in my mouth. Youc an carry a team while having good enough teammates to get to 2nd round (I never expected the Cavs, no matter how well Bron played, to get past Pistons, they came very close). And Wade averaged 16PPG and hit 2 game winners/game clinchers in the 1st round. He had one dud of a game with only 2pts, but outside of that game he was very good. I guess I shouldn't use word leadership there due to his age, but he was a HUGE emotional spark and came up huge. He was the reason players like Lamar and Caron even got to the 2nd round in the first place, because of Wade's great play and clutch performances. You can't even call Lamar a leader as he had never even reached the playoffs before in his life. I'd say if anyone outside of Wade was leader, it was either Brian Grant or Eddie Jones. Oh yeah, just ignore the fact that they had Larry Hughes, a 22PPG guy, the year before (who also plays very good perimeter D). They were 45-36 in 2004-2005 to 42-40 in 2005-2006. They WERE better in 2004-2005. The Heat are built around Shaq dominating and getting double teamed. That is why the have so many gunners. When he is not being double teamed and only getting his season averages, it puts a lot more stress on Dwyane Wade to put up a stellar performance against the best team (statistically, anyway) in the league. And he performed when it mattered the most, with a fantastic series. Shaq did his job, and Wade did more than enough needed to get past Pistons. Once again with words in my mouth. Never said Bron had enough to "breeze" past the Wizards. But he certainly had enough. From a top 5 player with good teammates (if it wasn't for some clutch shots from his teammates they possibly wouldn't have been in 2nd round) I expect him to get by a defensively challenged Wizards.
Ok. I am just going to jump in this. I allways get into these things late, so if what I have to say has already been said, than....Oh well.First of all. You can't say Wade is better because he has a ring now. Wade didn't get that ring alone. He has Shaq, he has two other future HOFers, and he has a legend as a coach. A championship is won by more than one person. The arguement, "Wade because he has the ring" brings no proof to the table. With that theory you might as well say Jason Kapono is better than James because he has a ring.LeBron had the better stats in the regular season and in the post season. He out played Wade in the first two rounds of the playoffs and James almost lead the Cavs to beat the number one team in the league. The Cavs were one game out of being in the Conference Finals, What does that mean for the Cavs? The Cavs haven't been to the playoffs since 1998. The Cavs haven't been to the second round since 1993. And the Cavs haven't had a winning record since 1998. That is a long time to not have a winning record. Who do we owe that too? LeBron. Where is my proof, let's look at this stat:The year before LeBron got to the Cavs, the Cavs went 17-65. Their third franchise worse (they have gone 15-67 twice).Wade has been in the playoffs his whole career. The first year Odom and Eddie Jones lead the way, the second year he had Shaq. You know about now. Wade has never had to do it all by himself untill the finals. Wade did not carry his team to the finals, you do not carry Shaq and Pat Riley to any final game. But Wade did carry the Heat through the finals. Sure James had Hughes, who is really his first real player that was supposed to help out, let's face it, Z has been there since 1998 and that was the last time they had a winning record. Hughes was out for the whole year. He broke his finger in the preseason. He admitted he wasn't 100% going into the playoffs. His brother then died in the playoffs. Hughes can't be used in this debate. Hughes wasn't there.A lot of people like to say Wade did everything in the finals. That is not true. Wade was the reason they won it, without Wade the Heat still wouldn't have a ring. But Wade didn't do everything. Example:Last play of the 2006 finals. The Mavs have the ball and are down by three. There is barely any time left on the clock. Gary Payton is guarding Jason Terry who has the ball. Dirk sets a pick on Payton. Payton can't get around the pick, and no one is there to help from the Heat. So Payton grabs Terry's jersey and pulls, that is a vet move. What happens now? Well because Dirk is in between Payton and Terry, Dirk can't pop out for the three pointer, something the Mavs were counting on if Payton were to get around. Terry can't get off a really good shot once he gathers himself because of the jersey pull. About the jersey pull, that was a foul, how was that a vet move? Because the foul was on the floor. The most the Mavs would get out of that is a chance at two points, not enough to win the game. That last play was all Payton. Payton took Terry and Dirk out of that last play. Wade did everything? No, not everything. I am not trying to take away what Wade did in the finals. I am just proving it wasn't all him and that Payton, Zo, and Shaq aren't washed up.So I say James had the better individual year. I say James is better right now. I also say I would rather build a new team off of LeBron James.
