Dwyane Wade vs. LeBron James

Lebron James > Dwyane WadeIf Lebron and Wade switched teams, Lebron would already have 2 rings and Wade would still be looking tomake it out of the first round

 

[quote name='drake24' post='130034' date='Aug 2 2006, 03:48 PM']First of all. You can't say Wade is better because he has a ring now. Wade didn't get that ring alone. He has Shaq, he has two other future HOFers, and he has a legend as a coach. A championship is won by more than one person. The arguement, "Wade because he has the ring" brings no proof to the table. With that theory you might as well say Jason Kapono is better than James because he has a ring.[/quote]It is 2 different things when a role player earns a ring and when s star player, the best player on the team, wins a ring. Wade definately didn't get ring alone, but without him they wouldn't have made it out of 1st round.

Of course, I know Bron is an amazing player, and he is probably the best talent the NBA has seen since MJ. But did he or did he not choke in game 6 when he had chances to seal the game? Yep. Was he not averaging well below his season averages? Yep. He didn't dominate in round 2, and in round 1 he dominated the fu*king Wizards. Wade had to play the Bulls in round 1 who has the best perimeter D in the league, the Nets who have great perimeter D, then Pistons where he played better than Bron, and against Dallas where he dominated and had one of the best Finals performances of all time!

Hughes played well until January when he got injured, and played real well when he came back. Didn't play well in playoffs, but still helped on defensive end and took at least SOME pressure off James. Z had 2 injury riddled seasons in a row, and 1 season where he only started 20 games before James came. Same with Boozer. Between those 2 starting to bloom and James coming in, it was to be expected they'd win more games (I believe 35 games in Bron's rookie season). And Bron didn't play well in the Pistons series, but his teammates came up huge. Same with Washington series. if it wasn't for Eric Snow and Damon Jones there is a good chance Bron still would have enver seen the 2nd round.

Never said he wa sonly reason. No one can win a championship by themselves. But when his team was down 0-2, and down 10pts with 5min to go in game 3, he took over with 2 40pt games and 2 36pt games, and the amazing 4th quarter heroics. With Shaq playing well below his standards, and playing a team that had a superstar in Dirk, great players in terry, Stack and Howard, and countless role players and fantastic head coach, Wade just blew up. I would also build a team off Bron because of his potential, but IMO Wade is better socrer (Bron has great driving ability but not a reliable or consistent jumpshot, while Wade has driving ability and the reliable and consistent midrange game), I feel they are about equal playmakers, Bron is better rebounder, Wade is better defender, and Wade is better winner. Yes, bron hasn't gotten the chances yet, but that doesn't take away from what Wade has done in the most important moments in heat history. Using that arguement against Wade is same stupid arguement used against Jordan when comparing him to other great players.

 

[quote name='Nitro1118' post='129910' date='Aug 2 2006, 01:21 PM'] Wade carried that team in the last round of playoffs/Finals and during season with all of the injuries and such. Shaq was injured for over 20 games this season, and wasn't nearly as effective as last year.Z only started 20 or so games in 2002-2003, and the 2 seasons before that he played 6 games and 23 games. Boozer started only 50 or so games the previous season. Those 2 players are above average in the NBA, and in the VERY weak Eastern conferance. Boozer averaged 16PPG and 12RPG in Bron's rookie season, and Z had 17-18PPG with 8RPG. Those 3 should have been enough. Considering Bron was a rookie, I give him a lot of slack, but the season after I put a lot of the blame on him, but it wasn't totally his fault.[/quote]You caNOT say Dwyane carries a Heat team when he has Pat Riley as a coach and Shaq as a teammate (regardless of how manny PPG he had ), and with the above average teammates he has in the "weak east", that's more than enough for him to not be carrying a team! Shaq was here for the majority of the season, so was Alonzo..so was Antoine, so was Udonis, so was every other "above average" player that he had on that squad. Still, Wade's "carrying" and "leadership" CANNOT be taken over LeBron's so discussion ended right there.Noone's even talking about the '02-'03 season, I was referring to the '03-'04 season, where him and the "above average" Carlos Boozer, AND Ricky Davis AND Jumaine Jones AND Darius Miles team went 17-65...read that again, 17-65....and Z started that whole season and played every game, Carlos started over a half of the games whichi should've been MORE than enough to win at least 20 games! Care to explain yourself over that? How these above average players couldn't get 18 wins in a "weak" eastern conference WITH Ricky Davis? More than enough my ass, you bashed Lamar for not being a competent teammate because he didn't make the playoffs in his career, but guess what pal? NEITHER DID THE "ABOVE AVERAGE" Carlos Boozer ! Zydrunas hadn't neither (except for his rookie season where he played a Dwyane Wade role) UNTIL James came....ALSO add in there that LeBron was "the man" from the beginning out on out, Dwyane didn't start as the "man" until the playoffs came around.

Shaq had 17, he averaged 18 in the playoffs..yup, very considerably below his average. So now the blame isnt't on O'Neal anymore huh? It's all on Antoine? Well, so the next game he was outplayed by Erick who didn't even start but got a full 17 minutes over DeSagana! But hey, you also ignored how Shaq played "considerably" below his usual minutes and took shots "considerably" below his average. No reason to be re-typing recaps of the game when I already said Dwyane played the best.I just love your relentlessness on going on to saying Shaq sucked in the Finals when that whole bogus theory was already discredited, but hey....anyways, he averaged a dub WHILST Dwyane playing WAY above his normal levels, Dwyane took most of the shots and scored more than he usually would so I would expect Shaq's points to be "considerably" down.

Just like "of course Shaq's PPG wont be higher due to the play that Dwyane was at". Oh and if you actually paid closer attention, you'd see that Dwyane averaged .1 more points !! Anyways, since your obviously the biggest stat demon on the site, I gave you a face full of your own stats and Lebron clearly outperformed Dwyane and yet you still want to go at it. Not enough? How about LeBron being involved in TWO gamewinning situations in those 7 games. And you must really have some brain problems if you think doubles and triples are ALL that takes defensive pressure away, why don't you take into account that Detroit was facing the most dominant player in the league and SURELY more attention would be drawn? Why don't you take into account that other than from what he draws he can actually BENEFIT Dwyane and "taking defensive pressure" isn't really all that supports him? If your thinking that way, than really, you must be so naive when it comes to basketball it's not even funny...still hilarious you think that Shaq doesn't relieve Dwyane of any tension because he wasn't "drawing doubles" ...

Great job restating exactly what I typed !

How the hell did I put "words in your mouth" when I refuted the exact statement you just typed up? Still, CARRYING a team is not leading a squad with the "MDE" and a legendary coach and several "above average" players, CARRYING a team is when you take a squad that's inadequate of any playoff success at all (or any success even) and you take it to greater heights and actually take the offensive loads and do the bulk of the work. Guys like Kevin Garnett carry their teams. Guys like Dwyane Wade, Tim Duncan, etc. etc., don't. Don't get it twisted, there's a line between LEADING a team and CARRYING a team. Dwyane is one and LeBron is another which also puts a grave difference in between the two...Lamar can't be a leader because he didn't make the playoffs before in his life? LMAO!! Really?? Does that certify you as "not leader" material? Then how can you frequently imply throughout the whole topic that Dwyane was the leader of that '04 squad when he was a ROOKIE!?? And how did LeBron carry and lead the Cavs when he was a ROOKIE!?? How about in '06?? James didn't make a damn playoff in his career and bam, almost a Conference Final! Oh, are you telling me ZYDRUNAS was the leader of that squad!?? Seriously, Dwyane wasn't even the main option nor was he playing outstanding at the PG when Rafer Alston can be argued as playing just as good coming off the bench.

Oh yeah, just ignore the fact that they went from a 10th ranked Offense to a 6th ranked offense. Yeah, just ignore the great perimeter D Hughes provided when they decrease .1 in Points given. Yeah...but hey, offense should be the only thing that even mattered to the Wizards since you go on ahead in the next paragraph and call them defensively challenged! Oh and by the way, better players don't mean a better team (for the second time ..)

Honestly, just because Shaq wasn't drawing the "doubles" and the "triples" it does NOT mean there was no defensive pressure being taken off. Seriously, unless your totally blank to the basketball game, more open looks isn't the only thing that can benefit your play, so you can go ahead and just stop with the nonsense. And what more can you expect from a 20/10 guy when the "best player" on his team is playing well above his regular level. Don't take simple statements out of context..."breezing past" basically means "more than enough"....on the same track as me now? Still, you can not call one of Lebron's teammates good without calling one of Dwyane's teammates amazing, the only legible one in the playoffs would be Big Z..not to mention your "above average" Zydrunas went from a 15 and 8 to 10 and 6 in the playoffs and was also basically invisible when LeBron had to CARRY his team through most of the playoffs. Don't even bring up Larry neither, the dude was not playing 100% and his brother recently died.

 

You are talking about the Pistons' series. You mean in points right? Because he was still averaging 6 assists per game and he had the best rebound average he has ever had in his whole career (taking into account season average and playoff series averages). His points per game, that was a Wade average. Wade had worst averages against the Pistons than James did. So who really played better against the Pistons? Sure stats don't mean everything. But I am just going along the lines where you said, "Was he not averaging well below his season averages?" because they were still better than what Wade put up against the Pistons. So if he was averaging well below, than Wade must be averaging well below LeBron's averages.

His stats weren't better than James' against the Pistons.

He got injured in the preseason. He broke his finger in the preseason. He thought he "sprained it" and so he kept playing through the season. A broken finger hurts bad. Hughes could not play like Hughes. Then he was out for a lot of the season with a broken finger. The Murray trade and all of the crap happend to get someone to fill his spot. Then Hughes came back, he was still no where near Hughes. He played a second to slow. His shot was way off. Then we go into the playoffs where his brother dies. He still wasn't 100% in the playoffs, but I assume he should have been near it. Although I don't know how long it takes to fully recover from that injury. I do agree, he did take some pressure of James and he was a help on defense even with the broken finger.

Oh I agree. Eric Snow was huge all year for us. I don't care what other Cavs fan say, I love Snow as a player. But Damon Jones? Without Damon Jones, James would have never saw the second round? That is wrong. Damon only averaged 3.8 minutes a game against the Wizards, he never average more than 3 points a game in any series. Damon Jones did nothing in the playoffs. He even joked around about how little he played to the media. Now if you were to say Marshall was huge. Marshall came up huge against the Pistons, like with that game saving block he had. But not Damon Jones. The only reason Damon Jones got James to the second round is because he did a good job making sure James was drinking enough gatorade.As for Z and Gooden. If Z and Gooden were such key factors to the Cavs success, why were they on the bench in key parts of the games in the playoffs? AV and Marshall were in their places most of the time. Why do I think they were on the bench?Z was killing us out their with his lack of defensive speed. We were getting eaten alive against the Pistons on the pick-and-roll. No matter what Z did the Pistons scored off of his lack of defensive help. AV fixed that problem. AV is quicker, he rushes to the spot. He cuts off angles. He takes charges. He hustles more. Gooden is not the brightest player in the world. I really like him, he is a low scoring double-double beast, but he isn't that bright. When he gets an offensive rebound, or the ball near the hoop and they aren't running a play. He thinks he needs to try and shoot it just about everytime. Now this isn't allways the case. But when Gooden gets the ball down low, he goes into a tunnel vision mode, he only sees what he is thinking usually. He either passes or shoots, but it is whatever is the first thing that came to his mind. If some one is open for a three, but he is in shooting mode, he won't see that. If a guy isn't guarding him tight down low and he could make a move and score, but he is in passing mode, he won't see that. Now he isn't like that all the time, you can't get into the NBA by playing like that. But he does it enough that I think it is part of the reason he is on the bench. He doesn't have good descion making skills out there. Marshall fixed that. Marshall is a vet, well pretty much. Marshall has expierence and better court vision. Marshall also adds some outside game which is nice in speading the court when you are playing against two shot blocking big men.Now I am not saying I hate Z or Gooden or anything, but I am saying that aren't as much help as people say they are.

My bad. When I said you, I ment you as in general. Not you as in you Nitro. I wasn't exactly debating with you yet, so I just kinda ment you as in whoever. I also agree that Wade was amazing in the finals, you can't take that away from him. But he didn't start playing like that, untill the finals. If Wade played like that all the time, then I would say he had a better season than LeBron and whatever else, but Wade didn't. Sure if you are going to play like that, the championship is the best time. But you can't pick and choose how hard you want to play. That isn't a good basketball player. Am I saying Wade was picking and choosing? No. But the championship brings out more in a player. A player relizes that this is what he has been working for. This is what it all comes down too. And for some players, like we saw Wade do, and Jordan do countless times, they elevate their game to a whole new level, because they don't want to give up. I am not taking that away from Wade. But I am saying that the one championship where he elevated his game, does not make him better just because he did that. I believe James would have done the same thing. He did in the all-star game. True, it is just the all-star game and no one plays real defense or really cares, but that is my point. It is just an all-star game, and James didn't want to lose. He took over while other people were trying to get T-Mac the MVP because it is his home court and he didn't want to lose, even in a game that was just for fun. If he would do that for a meanless all-star game, what would he do in the finals?

 

[quote name='His Greatness' post='130139' date='Aug 2 2006, 05:24 PM']You caNOT say Dwyane carries a Heat team when he has Pat Riley as a coach and Shaq as a teammate (regardless of how manny PPG he had ), and with the above average teammates he has in the "weak east", that's more than enough for him to not be carrying a team! Shaq was here for the majority of the season, so was Alonzo..so was Antoine, so was Udonis, so was every other "above average" player that he had on that squad. Still, Wade's "carrying" and "leadership" CANNOT be taken over LeBron's so discussion ended right there.[/quote]He CARRIED his team in finals and CARRIED his team through both Detroit series and the Wizards series 2 years ago. He carried the team that beat the Pacers in his rookie season. Bron carried his team through regular season, but Wade did it in playoffs.

The Cavs were so bad those years because they didn't have a playmaker, Z was just starting to come into his own, Boozer was a rookie and started only 50 or so game, and they had an extremely selfish player in Ricky Davis. Bron came in and as Ricky was booted out, he filled out the point department better than Ricky, but also brought youth and playmaking to the team. With Z getting better, Boozer averaging 16 and 12, among other average at best role players, it is no wonder why they were so much better.I said Lamar wasn't a leader because he never had been in a situation to get him ready for it. He still isn't a leader, even as he has gotten older. Wade was a rookie but led Marquette deep into the NCAA tourny, something Bron will never get a chance to do and will probably end up hurting his leadership skills. LeBron has been the man from the moment he stepped onto the floor, but he didn't do anything in that role until his 3rd season. Wade has been the man in each playoffs he has ever been in, and had amazing success. He was also the man this season, leading an injury riddled, crumbling team into champions (they were sort of a mess until the 2nd round of the playoffs, when everyone became healthy and the team started to play well).

And I never said Shaq wasn't a big factor in their playoff success, but he averaged below his season averages in the series (13 and 10) and it was all lef tto Wade to carry the team. yes, CARRY the team. And he did. To a championship. I haven't seen LeBron put on a performance in ANY game, playoff or not, like that. And Wade sustained it until the final buzzer sounded in game 6 of the series when the championship was sealed.

It wasn't discredited....he sucked! Was he better than most centers in the league? Yep. But when the team is built around Shaq dominating, and he delivers way below what he is able to do (20/9.5 in season, which he admits to not giving 100% to save himself for playoffs). Before Wade blew up (he played around his normal level in games 1 and 2) they were down 0-2 and down 10pts in 4th. Who came to rescue? Wade.

Before Wade blew up and he was averaging season #'s, Shaq had a 17 point game, 5 point game, and 16 point game. When Shaq isn't playing well, Wade comes to rescue and carries team, as seen in Finals. Shaq wasn't playing like the "MDE", not even most dominant current center. Not even close. Nope, Bron didn't play better than Wade when both faced Detroit. And even if you look past stats (which IMO show Wade had a much bigger impact in terms of beating Detroit due to nearly 20% better FG percentage) you will see that Wade hit the big shots when they needed them, he came up big when they needed scoring, and he knew when to take a back seat to Shaq when Shaq was feeling it (Shaq had by far his best series against Detroit). Bron didn't come up huge in any of the games against Detroit that they won in terms of scoring, his passing was overshadowed by high TO numbers (which Wade also had), and he just didn't take over like Wade did.

You said that I said that Bron's team was good enough to get anywhere in playoffs. You can carry a team even if they aren't crap. Wade did it in playoffs and Finals, and did it in past years. Lamar isn't a leader because he has never had the experience, was immature at the time and IMO was 2nd best player on team next to Eddie Jones (until Wade came into his own in playoffs). Wade led the team in playoffs and gave the spark because he had experience doing it with Marquette in the NCAA tounry the year before. Bron was the leader of this Cavs squad, but you can definately question his leadership at times. He still doesn'y have the killer instinct to take over big games when it counts, and in playoffs guys like Eric Snow gave team leadership as they had gone to Finals/deep into playoffs (same can be said for KG and when Sam arrived, although Bron is better than KG and Snow isn't as good as Sam, but the principle is still there).Now that's just saying some stupid sh*t to try and make an arguement. Rafer was great off the bench, but you and I both know Wade was far better player, made bigger impact, and carried team moreso.

He didn't take off much pressure at all. Wade got pretty much the same treatment as Kobe did in the 2003-2004 Finals- They let Shaq score and guarded Kobe. Kobe didn't play very well that series. Wade played great in the series, as he averaged 29PPG (last game he had flu and didn't play 4th). And once again, Wade raised his play in the series, as the Bulls and Nets DID double Shaq and DID play Wade mroeso one on one.

More than enough isn't breezing past. Breezing past is if Miami faced Washinton. Then you could say wade had enough to breeze past Washington.Bron still had enough. Bron shi**ed on the Wizards, but against Detroit he didn't playw ell at all, and it can be traced back to my arguement to why Wade is a better socrer: Good jumpshot at best. But it is very inconsistent, he either is hot or cold from outside 15ft, as seen in Washington series. Wade has a very consistent and reliable 2nd option to his driving in his midrange arsenal, and is a big reason why he played so well against the great defensive team in Detroit. Bron had enough tools to ge tto the 2nd round. I didn't expect the team to get as far as they did, but Bron still has less PPG, worse FG %, worse FT %, less APG, and more TO's, and didn't take and make the big shots or take over games like Wade did (most notably in Finals). That is a weakness of Bron that I expect him to fix (if he does he will be msot dominant and best player in game).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (drake24 @ Aug 2 2006, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You are talking about the Pistons' series. You mean in points right? Because he was still averaging 6 assists per game and he had the best rebound average he has ever had in his whole career (taking into account season average and playoff series averages). His points per game, that was a Wade average. Wade had worst averages against the Pistons than James did. So who really played better against the Pistons? Sure stats don't mean everything. But I am just going along the lines where you said, "Was he not averaging well below his season averages?" because they were still better than what Wade put up against the Pistons. So if he was averaging well below, than Wade must be averaging well below LeBron's averages.His stats weren't better than James' against the Pistons.</div>Wade had flu and didn't play in 4th his last game, so his PPG and FG % went WAY down from 29PPG and near 70% shooting to 26.7PPG and 62% shooting. And again, impact. Wade was so much of a bigger impact, he played huge when Pistons made surges, hit some impossible shots (that fadeaway 3 from the corner as shot clock went down)., and was unstoppable. That was huge as Shaq was playing only slightly better than during season. And Wade averaged 27/6.7/5.7 to Bron's 31/6.6/7. Take into account Wade plays with Shaq and bette rrole players, so his PPG will be down and APG slightly up. Take into account Wade has better FG %. Take into account Wade has better defensive stats. Take into account Bron still doesn't have a reliable and consistent 2nd option to his driving whereas Wade does. All of that makes the 2 very even in terms of talent and where they are. Then take into account what Wade did in playoffs 3 years ina row, he has a ring and Finals MVP, and his MJ like performance? C'mon now.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>My bad. When I said you, I ment you as in general. Not you as in you Nitro. I wasn't exactly debating with you yet, so I just kinda ment you as in whoever. I also agree that Wade was amazing in the finals, you can't take that away from him. But he didn't start playing like that, untill the finals. If Wade played like that all the time, then I would say he had a better season than LeBron and whatever else, but Wade didn't. Sure if you are going to play like that, the championship is the best time. But you can't pick and choose how hard you want to play. That isn't a good basketball player. Am I saying Wade was picking and choosing? No. But the championship brings out more in a player. A player relizes that this is what he has been working for. This is what it all comes down too. And for some players, like we saw Wade do, and Jordan do counts times, they elevate their game to a whole new level, because they don't want to give up. I am not taking that away from Wade. But I am saying that the one championship where he elevated his game, does not make him better just because he did that. I believe James would have done the same thing. He did in the all-star game. True, it is just the all-star game and no one plays real defense or really cares, but that is my point. It is just an all-star game, and James didn't want to lose. He took over while other people were trying to get T-Mac the MVP because it is his home court and he didn't want to lose, even in a game that was just for fun. If he would do that for a meanless all-star game, what would he do in the finals?</div>Wade played like that against Detroit, against Detroit 2 years back, against Wizards 2 years back where he averaged around 35PPG, he played like that against Pacers in his rookie season, etc... Bron still hasn't shown the killer instinct to take over huge games, hit tough game winners, and play way beyond his level of play. All of that gives me no reason to believe he can do it on biggest stage in basketball. And the only reason he got MVP is because the fu*king Pistons came in and locked down the Western Conference all stars :thumbdn1: Not to mention Wade is one who hit game winning tip in.

 

This is a really touch decision for me. They are both just absolute beast. I'll take Wade though because he had one of the most memorable Finals performances in NBA History. And he has the ring. The most important thing in basketball is winning a championship. Period. O yeah and it's not like he hopped on Shaqs cottontails to win the championship either. Wade was clearly the best player on the best team in the NBA.Until LeBron does something Wade has never done I'm not ready to give him the edge. Wade plays better on defense. That's 50% of the game and it's not even arguable. On offense LeBron and Wade is debatable. Not clear cut. So you can give them both 25% for that. Wade = 75%. LeBron = 25%.LeBron has never been on an All NBA Defensive team either. No championship. No Finals MVPs. No seson MVPs.

 

:happy0144: Basically summed up my arguement right there. I'm so sick of people giving Wade so much crap because Shaq is on the team. Shaq isns't what he used to be. The palyer he is right now is not top 50 all time. Do people take away from MJ because he had Scottie? Bird who had McHale and a great cast? Magic becaus eof Kareem and showtime Lakers? TD because he has had Robinson, Parker and Ginobli and great role players? Nope. People take it away from wade because we are comparing him to Bron, who is amazing, but because of the hype and attention gets special treatment. Wade was best player on Heat, played amazing when it counted most, and talent/skill wise it is extremely close. I give Wade edge in scoring, even in playmaking (I guess I could give Bron slight edge), Wade is better defender, more clutch, etc... Outside of rebounding, Bron is not clearcut winner in any category, while Wade IS clearcut in some categories.

 

[quote name='Nitro1118' post='130203' date='Aug 2 2006, 05:32 PM'] He CARRIED his team in finals and CARRIED his team through both Detroit series and the Wizards series 2 years ago. He carried the team that beat the Pacers in his rookie season. Bron carried his team through regular season, but Wade did it in playoffs.[/quote]He's not CARRYING his team when he has good enough players on his team, he may have outshined everyone and did the best, but in no way shape did he eve ncarry his team. Shaq is not only his legible teammate, Walker, Posey, Williams, Alonzo..these guys are capable enough to hold their own, Dwyane led the pack but he did NOT carry the team, but when you take guys like Zydrunas, Eric Snow, Donyell...these guys can NOT hold their own and it showed the seasons before LeBron came. LeBron CARRIES his team, Dwyane doesn't...comprehend?

EXACTLY, which is why LeBron was so vital to the team. Boozer began starting and the reason he began doing so well is because LeBron's playmaking in general...Z coming into his own? Really? Then how did he have his best season in '03, BEFORE James came? Really...bookmark NBA.com before you make any more false claims.Oh so now you NEED a situation to get you prepared? Damn, get some new material and stop mooching off the same sh*t that you said in the KG thread...newsflash, its NOT the same situation and his role in Miami was more evident than that of Dwyane...since you seem like your just making sh*t up and didn't even follow the Heat..you'd know Dwyane was barely even the leader, seriously, just because KG had never done much in the playoffs it does NOT apply in this situation, LeBron's leadership clearly surpasses that of Dwyane and its even arguable on whose the leadership role belongs to (Dwyane or Shaq). And then you go on and call his situation in MARQUETTE as a leading factor to why he has more leadership! Keep digging these new ones up, Nitro, there too funny.

He didn't carry the team, regardless of Shaq averaging a frickin dub, Dwyane may have EXPLODED and played amazing but he did NOT carry the team when he has Shaq playing by his side, Udonis playing by his side, Alonzo, Gary Payton, Antoine, James...etc. etc. Lebron has never taken over a game? I guess that triple double in Game 3 wasn't enough? I guess scoring 15 points in the final quarter was not enough? How about a triple Game 1 vs Washington? Exploding for 41 in Game 3 INCLUDING the GW? How about putting up 45 INCLUDING the GW in Game 5?? In the amount of games that he played HE PLAYED BETTER than Dwyane and put up better numbers, too...I guess ALL THESE aren't included as taking over a game? Not to mentioned there was 13 games played, imagined if he the Cavs advanced a bit longer.

Well its kind of hard for him to go ABOVE his level when Dwyane was stepping up as the first option! Shaq was still putting up around his regular numbers but Wade was playing well above his level. And then you say he sucked but was better than most centers, THEN you say he puts up 20/10 and sucks...is there really any end to your contradiction man?

Just so you know, SHAQ ISNT WADE's ONLY TEAMMATE! He STILL had Antoine, he still had Jason, Zo, Glove, Posey, etc. He may have lead the team but he did not frickin carry them when those certain players were still there playing, not to mention Shaq putting up a dub isn't even nearly enough to be "good" for you...I guess he has to average 30 and 20 to be a great teammate, right? Seriously, get over yourself, Diesel wasn't the only player Dwyane was playing with so don't act like he was.He did better because of a FG% when LeBron was putting up 2 more assists and 3 more RPG? That's a good one. And the Cavs never won anything because of LeBron taking over? Really? Then I guess in Game 3 with LeBron racking a triple double didn't mean a thing right? How about his gamewinning dish in Game 5? Scoring isn't the only thing you can do to help your team win neither...and why are we talking strictly about the playoffs where LeBron played a mere 13 games...in the regular season with a consecutive 82, its also clear there how James surpasses Dwyane..

Not really, when you have a team as talened as Dwyane, carrying a team is NOT needed or necessary don't bring it up. He LED the team but did not f'n carry them. Here's a newsflash pal: NCAA and NBA - TWO WHOLE DIFFERENT LEVELS!! IF you expect someone coming out of college to lead you to a championship because he did it in college then you really need to consider brain surgery, not having experience doesn't mean a damn thing neither, LeBron led his team this year, never saw playoffs before and still brought them to the last game against the best team....so much for that moronic logic . Killer Instinct? Really! LeBron has none because he dropped 15 alone in a game vs. Washington? How about all the triples and GW he put in the playoffs alone? Seriously, don't make me bring up some situations during the regular season neither...don't go ahead and judge and be ignorant and say things like that to try to prove a point. :HAHAHA: !!!!!! Eric Snow gave them leadership!!! Are you serious? HE BARELY EVEN PLAYS A ROLE ON THE TEAM when LEBRON PLAYS THE FLOOR GENERAL!!! Seriously, its not the damn KG debate, its NOT the anywhere near the same situation, the principle is irrelavant and way far off, he didn't give them any leadership either really, LeBron commandeered that squad and Snow was far off...far off from any leadership role at all in Cleveland so don't bare the same situation in here..No duh...but Dwyane didn't start playing AMAZINGLY until the playoffs came around and even Rafer was putting up just about the same numbers as him (even led the Team in total assists), that was what I was saying. No sh*t Dwyane made a bigger impact though.

Wait a minute, they let Shaq score and guarded Dwyane? Hold on! I thought DWYANE was the one that exploded in the playoffs and SHAQ was the one that sucked! What happened to that scenario, Nitro? Backpedaling again? But hold on! In that same paragraph, you mention that Shaq was DOUBLED when you said in the same pragraph that they let him score and guarded mainly Dwyane! I'm sorry but my contradiction-bullsh** meter is bursting off the meter.

When you have MORE THAN ENOUGH talent means you have alot of talent to be able to do one certain thing - as in the Cavs breezing past Washington, you really need to comprehend these things easier...and don't take the words entirely out of contrast neither.Wait, so he shitted on the Wizards, racking up a triple and hit a gamewinner, but doing the same against Detroit and pushing them to Game 7 means doing bad? Averaging 26, 9 and 7 is doing terribly? F*ck outta here man, he may not have scored more than he usually does but everything else he did helped a sh*t load and was the most he could do, don't forget the GW dish he got too..but hold on! Wade is a better scorer when LeBron averages more than he does, when Lebron can shoot better than he does! When he's overall more VERSATILE than he is! When he's AVERAGED MORE POINTS EVERY SEASON THAN DWYANE DID! But then you go to the DETROIT series and say LeBron had less PPG (.1) and less APG (he averaged over 2 more) and say he didn't take any big shots or take any games over that series when he put up a triple double Game 3 and scored 15 points the Final quarter! Then you ignored Game 5 when he dished a GW layup! Yeah man, in that series alone with 7 games, he had 2 amazing clutch plays in total already in the 7 games including a triple double, but he JUST cant take over any games, or do anything big in the clutch because he didn't explode in every game against the Pistons..yeah, every OTHER GAME in the playoffs, in the regular season, IN HIS CAREER IN GENERAL is just TOTALLY irrelavant in this situation when you want to talk about how he does these things! Let's here your reply Nitro..and this time, try to keep from contradicting and backpedaling at least twice in the same paragraph this time..oh and have NBA.com up before you start typing too :happy0144: ..

 

[quote name='His Greatness' date='Aug 3 2006, 01:10 AM' post='130738']He's not CARRYING his team when he has good enough players on his team, he may have outshined everyone and did the best, but in no way shape did he eve ncarry his team. Shaq is not only his legible teammate, Walker, Posey, Williams, Alonzo..these guys are capable enough to hold their own, Dwyane led the pack but he did NOT carry the team, but when you take guys like Zydrunas, Eric Snow, Donyell...these guys can NOT hold their own and it showed the seasons before LeBron came. LeBron CARRIES his team, Dwyane doesn't...comprehend? [/quote]Z had 17PPG the seaosn ebfore Bron came, Snow almsot won a ring with the Sixers, Donyell has always been solid, Gooden has always been a solid role player, etc... Bottom line is when his team was down and battered, all those great teammates you speak of weren't getting job done, Wade stepped up and damn enar single handedly beat the Mavs.

No, Boozer started playing well because maturity. He has played just as well with the Jazz, although injuries have slowed him down when it comes to games played. And when I said Z was coming into his own I was referring to it was only his 2nd season of being healhty and putting up very good numbers. And outside of 2PPG better, Z was better in Bron's first season, with better FG %, more RPG, more BPG, less To's per game. He became more refined in Bron's first season, and there is no question in my mind Bron, being the playmaker he is, helped get him the open shots needed to do that.

There is no question going to college, and leading a college team so deep into the tourny helps leadership skills a ton. College in general prepares you for the NBA. Just look at HS players who went to NBA: T-Mac has never been past 1st round (he was definately at fault in 2002-2003, saying stupid sh*t like I wonder who we will face next round prematurely) and he couldn't finish 1 more game off. KG's leadership skills are very questionable. 7 straight 1st round KO's, despite having homecourt in most of those series? Terrible. Jermaine O'Neal wasn't the leader of the Pacers that went to ECF. Best player? Yes. Leader? No. He still has some leadership problems, but he is still hard to judge due to him being injured all the time. And last but not least Kobe. Unlike Wade, Kobe was NOT the best player or any form of leader on the championship LA teams, and because him and Shaq ruining what could have been best duo of all time, I consider both of their leadership skills very questionable (mind you, I feel Kobe is pound for pound best player in game, but his leadership skills are definately questionable). Not to mention other teammates criticizing the man.And seriously, if people like you are gonan take away from wade because he has Shaq, then you have to give him some slack in the leadership arguement considering he has never been in the kind of situation Bron is in where he went to a franchise with no leadership or star and was immediately thrust into the spotlight. And if you don't consider Wade a leader, fine. I'd take a guy who takes ove rin Finals and puts team on his shoulders and puts on one of best performances in history over a "leader" who got his team to 2nd round. And as you kept saying in KG vs TD topic, almost doesn't count.

When wade was averaging his normal season averages and his teammates were doing their thing, they were down 0-2 and down 10pts with 5min left in game 3. 2 40pt games and 2 36pt games later, including game tiers/winners, and the supposed leader and MDE is only averaging 13PPG, I'd say that is carrying. Did he have good teammates? Of course! You can't win by yourself. But Dallas was a much better overall team, and Wade did what MJ did a lot with the great Bulls teams: put the team on his back and carried them, willed them, to a win.I'll give Bron the nod in game 5 against Washington, I did forget about that game. He played amazing. I am still urked by game 3 with that travel, but whatever, he hit the GW and that's all that matters. He had a fantastic series, but I have only seen him totally take a game over in 4th, put team on his back when down, and win game (outside of game 5). Wade has done it more than once, and on a much bigger stage against a much tougher defense.

He doesm't suck, never said that. But considering the man doesn't come to play during season to save up for postseason and ends up playing worse (ESPECAIALLY IN THE F*CKING FINALS), and way below what he is capable of doing, he is not doing what his team needed him to do. The whole Heat team is really built around Shaq, and when he is not performing (once again, Finals) the team needs one to step up. When the team was trying to exploit bad Mavs interior D in Games 1 and 2 and Shaq wasn't delivering, Wade took over rest of series....what happenned? 4 straight wins.

Zo, Jason, Payton, and Shaq all were well below season averages in the Finals. Wade carried that team from Game 2-6. It's just like how Bron did it with Cavs in first roudn when his 2nd optiona nd other options weren't showing up....he came up with great games and GW's. Difference? Wade did it agaisnt a far tougher defense with Dallas (jeeze, before this year I never thought I'd say that) and he did it on biggest stage and did it in much more dramatic fashion. Wade had good teammates that were underachieving, and he was playing against a team where Dirk, Terry, Howard, Stack, etc were all playing well.

Umm, Bron didn't play all 82, he played 79...And Wade was of much more positive impact than Bron. With Shaq having his best series against Pistons, Wade picked and choosed his spots, and had 29PPG and enar 70% shooting before his 6-15 and like 14 point performance ing ame 6 where he had flu and din't play 4th. With Bron being the sole leader of the cavs, and against a team like Detroit, I expect his numbers, especially in scoring where his team lacked the most, to be up considerably. They were down 5PPG and 4% in FG percentage, not to mention 73% FT percentage and tanked clutch free throws.

You make it sound like he had a ton of triples and game winners. He had 2 triples, and 2 GW's (one of which was a clear travel, other was one of the worst defensive plays I have EVER seen). Wade had 2 GW's in the Finals alone, and has way more kiiller instinct (he's had that trait since college, Bron was only 2 for 19 in GW situations before he hit his first game winner this season). And if Pistons were best team, they wouldn't have gotten beaten by Miami in 6 games convincingly, or been pushed by a Cavs team where the star player wasn't performing to his usual standards (or his role players) to 7 games. Detroit lost that edge in the playoffs. Dallas and SA had the best overall teams, but unfortunately Dallas had to play against a Dwyane Wade hungry for a championship in the finals and a terrible timeout called by Josh Howard.

Snow provides that locker room leadership. He is a fantastic teammate and does his role on the team. There are a few players like that on the Cavs. Is Bron leader? No doubt. But there are things that he can't provide the team because lack of experience. Players like Snow do that. Players like Gary Payton, who wasn't very good by any stretch of the imagination, do that. Players like Zo do that. Not to mention players like Shaq can give that insight (although he didn't use that insight very effectively in the Finals).

Looks like someone doesn't know how to read efficiently. I said Pistons let Shaq score and tried to stop everyone else. This backfired on them, whereas it worked in 2003-2004 Finals. They didn't expect Wade to blow up like he did. If Wade averaged only 27PPG through the first 5 games on his normal 48% shooting, Pistons would have beaten the Heat. And when I said Shaq was doubled, that was referring to the 2 previous series', as I pointed out.

2 AMAZING clutch plays? Sorry, but I expect a star player like him to be taking the big shots, not his role players. That to me shows a sign of lack of confidence. And he averaged 6APG, not 7, which was below his seasona verages. And while he was up in RPG, that is hardly enough considering all of the other stats he went down in.Wade is better scorer. Brona verages more PPG, but Wade is more efficient and actually has a reliable 2nd option to his driving, while Bron is still searching for a reliable midrange or outside game (he has improved definately, but his shooting is still not where it needs to be, take a look at Detroit series to see that, 4% down in FG, 6% down in 3pt, 2% down in FT percentage). When Bron is forced to take jumpers, his averages are very much down. I haven't once contradicted myself. I stand by these things: Wade is better scorer, Wade is better leader, Wade is better defender, Wade is better winner. Bron is equal playmaker, better rebounder, better 3pt shot. Like the TD vs KG debate, I take the guy who has had more oppertunities to wina championship and risen to the occasion, along with having amazing stats like few others over the guy who has slightly better stats and has gotten nowhere in his career.

 

Nothing ticks me off more than comparing players because of championships when one player has obviously been put on the better team. LeBron is not a worse. The ONLY thing Wade is better in is defending. That's it. LeBron is equal to him or better at everything else. He can drive to the basket like Wade does, maybe not as good but one of the best in the league, and he is a better shooter also. Calling Wade a better scorer is insane. So is calling him a better winner. With LeBron on that Heat team, like I think HisGreatness said, the Heat would have won 2 championships already.I understand the KG and TD comparison and I was wrong on that one because KG should have led his team past the first round at least once with those teams and he didn't. LeBron DID on his first try with pretty bad teammates.Kobe is a perfect example why I think the argument that Wade is better because of his championship is bogus. Look at Kobe's team that won the championships. They were pretty damn good. He had Shaq, like Wade, a better Shaq yes but I think Wade had the better role players. That team won 3 championships.... Then you put Kobe on the team he is on now, sort of like LeBron's. It's a BAD team with 1 or 2 good players there and he hasn't done anything since Shaq and the rest of that championship team left. That doesen't make him a loser does it? Just because Wade has been blessed with a better team so far in his career doesen't mean he is the better winner. LeBron did just what Kobe did in that situation, he took a top team to 7 games and had some game winners and great performances in the playoffs, like Kobe. Watching the playoffs all of those players carried their teams at some point but Wade did have A LOT more help with Shaq's great games and the other role players helping out while the other two's supporting casts dissapeared for some games. I don't think it was Wade carrying the Heat. He was a big part of that team but you have to give a lot of credit to what Zo and Payton did. Their's and other's experience is what put them on top of the Mavs. It was the clutch plays from experience, the desire to win that the vets had and mistakes by the Mavs from inexperience that decided the series.Shaq was a monster inside for a lot of the playoffs. Zo played GREAT defense and Payton made smart plays. Haslem did a great job on Dirk and rebounded well. Jason Williams, James Posey and Antoine Walker helped.Hughes dissapeared. Gooden wasn't there for some games. Ilgauskas was okay. Damon Jones didn't play, he made one important shot the whole playoffs. Varajao brought some great energy, but it's only Varajao who wouldn't even be a top 8 player on the Heat. LeBron had to carry his team more than Wade and almost took his crap supporting cast to the Eastern Conference Finals. They were only a couple missed putbacks away from doing so.Even the Heat fans earlier in this thread who love and idolize Wade KNOW that LeBron is a better player, though I do admit not by much. Wade is right behind.And you can't use the same argument you used for KG. LeBron did more than expected with those underachieving teammates of his while KG just dissapointed. You kept talking about how KG couldn't get out of the first round once with decent teammates but like I said earlier LeBron did it on his FIRST try. And no, Wade was not the team leader two years ago and it was Shaq last year leading on the floor and locker room.

 

[quote name='ArizonaFan' post='130795' date='Aug 3 2006, 02:49 AM']Nothing ticks me off more than comparing players because of championships when one player has obviously been put on the better team. LeBron is not a worse. The ONLY thing Wade is better in is defending. That's it. LeBron is equal to him or better at everything else. He can drive to the basket like Wade does, maybe not as good but one of the best in the league, and he is a better shooter also. Calling Wade a better scorer is insane. So is calling him a better winner. With LeBron on that Heat team, like I think HisGreatness said, the Heat would have won 2 championships already.[/quote]Championships are a sign of greatness. Bron hasn't even gotten past 2nd round yet, Wade has done it twice. Wade has a finals MVP and one of the greatest finals performances of ALL TIME. I don't care if Bron hasn't had the teammates Wade has had, Wade has something players like Zo and Payton gave up millions to get- a championship.

Still took him 3 years to get into playoffs in first place. Wade already hit more than one GW in playoffs, and was one game away from reaching Finals (which they would have done if not for his injury).

You made some good points, but 3 things:1) Unlike Wade, Kobe was not the best player of those Laker teams, and Wade didn't have the benefit of having a 30/12 Shaq...he had a 18/10 Shaq in playoffs, and 13/10 Shaq in Finals.2) Never called LeBron a loser. But through 3 years, Wade has a ring, Finals MVP, one of the greatest Finals performances ever, has proven each year he is a winner and has had amazing series' in each year, etc... There is no debnying Wade is better winner. Even if Bron never gets that kind of team, I still put Wade as a better winner due to him having a ring as best player on his team and putting some amazing performances each year.3) Zo, Jason, Payotn, Shaq and others played well below their averages in the Dallas series. Wade carried that tewam with 36PPG, 2 40pt games, 2 15-20pt 4th quarters, a few GW's/game tiers, etc... And unlike bron, Wade played the best of his career in the series that mattered the most in his life, while LeBron wasn't as good as usual.

Once again, I'm not arguing Wade has much better teammates, but everyone expected Cavs to get past the 1st round. In 2nd round Bron was up in RPG but down in APG, way down in FG % and PPG, and had 4.5 TO's per game. Wade carried a Heat team, with 2 40pt games and 2 36pt games and 2 15-20pt 4th quartewrs and 3 GW's tiers in the span of 4 games, to an NBA championship while Shaq was averaging only 13PPG, Payton at 3PPG, Jason below his average, Zo below his average, etc... I know that wade isn't like KG, but at THIS point of their careers, if I was to rank them, I'd rank Wade higher because in season their stats are very close, he is better scorer (IMO, better FG % and bette rmidrange shot while Bron is inconsistent with his J), and has done so much more in terms of winning and clutch performances than bron has done, even if he has had better team.

 

Saying LeBron isn't a winner is just unfair to him when he was put in a bad situation. I can understand if someone has better stats but chokes, like Peyton Manning, and someone gets the job done, like Brady, but LeBron didn't choke in the playoffs. He played his heart out and carried his team all they way to Game 7 against the best team at that time. Hey, if his best teammate didn't get injured and have his brother die he may have advanced with that team. I just don't see Wade as the better winner yet. If LeBron ever gets a team that's good enough and he fails then you can go back to this. If LeBron was on the Heat I don't think you seriously could say they would've have won or Wade would have carried that Cavs farther. LeBron didn't have any real low post threat. Shaq's prescense against the Pistons and the rest of the teams helped even though he also had a great a great playoffs most of the way. Without someone like Shaq inside the defense could focus more on LeBron which may have been a reason for his sub-par performance, by his standards, but still very good series against the Pistons.

 

Shaq was played striaght up by Wallace, wade didn't have much pressure taken away from him at all. Wade had a way better FG % than Bron against Pistons (and Kobe back in Finals 2003-2004) because he picked and choosed his spots and went with flow of game. He also has a much more consistent and reliable midrange game, while Bron was jacking up too many rushed 3's in the Detroit series and forced going to basket too much when he saw that wasn't working. He didn't take his time to get easier, mdirange jumpshots like Wade did.It is unfair for many players that they never got to play with a team as good as MJ had with Scottie and the Bulls, or TD has had in the past, or Magic and Larry had, or Olojuwan had those Rockets teams, etc... But fact of the matter is they did have those teams, were the best players of their teams, and came up like HoF's in the Finals and playoffs. They won championships. Wade is in that criterea. And while it is somewhat unfair to Bron, wade has accomplished something that took HoF's like Payton and Zo forever to achieve, and players like Malone, Stockton and ewing NEVER achieved...a championship. And the way Wade did it in the Finals and Pistons series really says something about him as a player that leBron may never get a chance to prove.

 

I just personally think it's stupid to take away from great players like that because they just didn't have as good of a team. Chokers are chokers but guys like Malone, Ewing, Stockton and LeBron are unlucky and I just hate taking something away from them when they played great in the playoffs. Just as good as some stars that won a championship. I'd like to shoot the first person who came up with that which everyone follows. Now it's getting late and I have to go to bed. Talk to you all tommorow.

 

It also isn't fair to take away from a player who had arguably the best finals performance EVER en route a championship and finals MVP because the opposing player hasn't gotten the same oppertunity. And as I said before, talent wise they are very similar. Fairly even playmakers (possible nod to Bron), fairly even scorers (I give nod to Wade), and while Bron has better RPG, Wade is better defender and clutch performer. To me ti comes down to the championship, the way Wade put the Heat on his back and totally dominated in Finals, the way he does same thing in seaosn and did in past playoff games/series, etc... It is a close debate, but those are the same reasons why I put Jordan #1, and the same reaosn why I put Kobe and Wade over Bron.PS- His Greatness, see now this is a good debate. We fully understand each others points, don't twist words or put words into each others mouths, and don't insult or be annoyingly sarcastic to try and make a point. We also don't PM each other saying I hope we can still be friends crap after we just insulted each other. I take blame in some of the nastiness, but sometimes your sarcasticness and constant insults takes a ton away from your credibility. Personally we disagree, and I am not interested in discussing this topic with you anymore. I feel Wade is better scorers, equal playmaker, better defender, better clutch player, and better winner while Bron is better rebounder, equal playmaker, and possibly better leader depending on perspective (although this is extremely debatable). To this point, Wade has a 'chip and won it with one of the great Finals performances in history, in all 3 years has only not made ECF only once, and talent and number wise is right there with Bron. All that is why I pick Wade over Bron. You evidently think Bron is better because you feel he is better scorer and playmaker (both debatable, I respect your opinion there) and better leader (can go to the extreme either way, depends on perspective of leading a team). Let's end it there, as both of us are way too hard headed to change those opinions, and this topic has strayed so far away from who is actually the better player and why. Let's end it there, it was a good debate.

 

You want to end it here? No sir, I'm just beginning and we'll see how good the "best debater" on the site really is, I'm not letting you take the backdoor exit like you always do in every debate. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='130774' date='Aug 3 2006, 01:15 AM'] Z had 17PPG the seaosn ebfore Bron came, Snow almsot won a ring with the Sixers, Donyell has always been solid, Gooden has always been a solid role player, etc... Bottom line is when his team was down and battered, all those great teammates you speak of weren't getting job done, Wade stepped up and damn enar single handedly beat the Mavs.No, Boozer started playing well because maturity. He has played just as well with the Jazz, although injuries have slowed him down when it comes to games played. And when I said Z was coming into his own I was referring to it was only his 2nd season of being healhty and putting up very good numbers. And outside of 2PPG better, Z was better in Bron's first season, with better FG %, more RPG, more BPG, less To's per game. He became more refined in Bron's first season, and there is no question in my mind Bron, being the playmaker he is, helped get him the open shots needed to do that.[/quote]And "all these" amazing guys for the Cavs went 17-65 and I DOUBT a small role player like Eric Snow who's really not as amazing as you put him, Donyell who stays as a sixth man and Gooden who is inconsistent as hell would be able to make THAT much of a difference to probably the worst record team in the NBA. And all those good teammates I was speaking of were in need of a leader, James Posey isn't one to step up and do the work, it was either Dwyane or Shaq and evidently it was Wade who did the work. The Heat team all worked out with those "good teammates" because they functioned well as a TEAM and when one player is out of the drawing there obviously not going to be the same team. Wait, its because of maturity now! Yeah man, the guy matured in ONE YEAR from 21 into a real full grown man ready for the NBA.... do you know how ridiculous that sounds? But no wait! Its something different now that ZYDRUNAS can benefit and become more refined from Bron's playmaking, but Carlos Boozer cannot? Gee, that selfish Lebron, how can he help out one teammate, but not the other! And now let's look a bit FURTHER into the claim you gave Z right? I think a good reliable friend NBA.com has something different to say! (really, check it out please). Well in '03, he had 17.2 PPG, 15.3 in Bron's first...6 more rebounds and .6 less in turnovers, hey I'm surprised you didn't mention that Z had .3 more assists!

Wait a minute, so the guys coming out of high school have no leadership experience but are the better players? OH WAIT, what's this topic about! Damn, I always thought it was about THE BETTER PLAYER!!! Yeah! It doesn't really even help your argument at all when later in the page you would go and say: "and possibly better leader"...and THEN you and I both have even been implying the whole time that LeBron actually CARRIES his team! Hmm...who's going to have more leadership skills..a guy in his 3rd year with no second consistent reliable option really, that basically has to CARRY his squad, and matured and brought a former 17-65, 29-53 team into a 50-32 team INTO THE SEMIS (for the first time in the decade) against the best team in the L, OR a guy who was basically molded into a superstar by the "MDE", a guy who was put on a gifted team that allowed him to produce more and show what he's really made of....I take the first option, Alex....AND then you go ahead and question Shaq's leadership skills which is downright defiant.....and for Colleges, hey youcan also ignore what happened with Oscar Robertson and how he didn't win a damn ring until his FIRST YEAR with another team and his FIRST YEAR as the second option when he was well out of his prime, but we'll ignore that for now, and I'll refrain from getting out some other players that "did it in College" but didn't in the NBA..cause frankly that point is flaccid and obviously the NBA is on a WHOLE other level than college ...that being said, don't try and revive it because I'll just dig a whole deeper for it.

That ends your whole theory right there. When the guy has GOOD TEAMMATES "doing their thing", he is NOT carrying his team, granted that he DID willl them to a win, which you were right in saying, but the dude did not carry the team, exploding in 5 minutes of one game is NOT carrying your team, PUTTING UP 35+ point games is not carrying your team..why can I say that? LOOK AT HIS TEAMMATES! And the MDE averaging what he was doing is irrelavant, Dwyane STEPPED UP and that's the point, and as far as I'm concerned, when ONE player plays well above his level the other player is going to be affected somehow. Once again: Dwyane stepped up, led his team, willed them to a win, but he did not carry the team.Given, Dwyane DOES possess the clutch ability over LeBron which I've already acknowledged numerous times, but you said James doesn't have the "killer instinct" and doesn't "take over games" which I was personally "urked" by...because obviously you didn't see any Cavs games during the season ..

Oh, you didn't say that? Damn, was I reading this wrong then? :

Oh jeez, is it just me or is that contradiction #4 for you so far? Anyways, you talk about the team being built around Shaq, yet you say Dwyane is the leader and main option, which one is it? O'Neal may NOT have done what he needed to, but like you said in this same post, his OTHER teammates were doing their thing (Shaq isn't Dwyane's only teammate...) and the blame CANNOT entirely be pushed onto Shaqs..Wade stepped up, Shaq was putting up 20/10, the teammates were legitimate enough to get things done. Did Dwyane lead the pack? Duh...but did he CARRY them? F*ck no.

Once again, THE NUMBERS are not the only damn thing that his teammates can help him with..seriously, Dwyane's play skyrocketed, so obviously the teammates numbers are either going to deterioate or go up depending if they stepped up or not, regardless, NUMBERS were not what made the players and Antoine, Jason, Zo, etc etc.. ALL did more than enough to help steer the team. A tough defense? Really? Is Dallas BETER on defense than Detroit? I don't know, I always thought the Pistons had the Best D in the league...but yeah, don't act as if LeBron only did something against Washington when several times he put up amazing games against Detroit. Granted, Dwyane DOES have the clutch ability but don't act as if James doesn't possess any of that killer instinct whatsoever. Even so, why are we talking about 10-20 games when LeBron ALSO outperformed Dwyane in the REGULAR SEASON too where consistency is more of a factor. Oh my god, 82-79, BIG DIFFERENCE..I was referring to 82 as in the whole season, so get over it. But hold on, he's more of a positive impact than LeBron when Lebron is the sole leader? There's an indirect contradiction again...you can't be more of an IMPACT than a guy that carries his team! Come on BBW's Smartest Member, EVEN SO if you even watched any of the series, LeBron was getting much toucher defense than Dwyane was, just look at Game 7 for as to how bad James' teammates were doing . LeBron was going up against a higher pressured defense focused on him, Dwyane had his teammates to actually help relieve it all, which is a big difference between the two, and still James putting up the numbers that he did..

Like it matters, the GW was enough, the triple was also another example of his amazing play against Detroit defense. Bron DOES have some Killer Instinct but YOU make it sound like he has had none. I've already also acknowledged that Dwyane does have the instinct over James so you don't need to keep repeating yourself...but how many triples did Dwyane have in the playoffs? GW's? Best team AT THE TIME...I was just going with what you said though:

:closedeyes:

Locker room leadership my ass, the dude is a soft spoken player who's role on the team is DEFENSE, he's no Sam Cassell, so don't even try coming up with that generic bullsh** again. Hold on, they let SHAQ score and try to stop everyone else, but DIDNT EXPECT Dwyane to blow up? Well, when your trying to STOP ONE GUY than your OBVIOUSLY EXPECTING HIM TO BLOW UP!! Seriously, if your going to use that kind of logic, it would've been used on Shaq, not Dwyane.

Wow, what more could you want than a GAME WINNING DISH!!?? HE DISHED The GW, what do you expect him to take the shot when he had a perfect pass right in his vision for Drew? Seriously man. And no, he averaged 6.7 APG., .1 above his season average More efficient when his game is purely one dimensional relying on mainly driving? I don't think so, LeBron is much more versatile on the offensive end, his driving is almost as good as Dwyane's and his jumpshot is better, thus is the reason he scores more. There's a REASON LeBron has scored more than Dwyane in EACH ONE OF THEIR SEASONS....UNTIL Dwyane can do anything better and actually SURPASS Lebron at scoring, his mid range, driving etc etc. doesn't mean sh*t if he doesn't score more so don't even say that he's a better scorer because that's laughable. Wade is a better defender, Wade is more clutch. LeBron is a better leader, Lebron is better on the offensive end (including scoring and PLAYMAKING), and Lebron is more versatile, Lebron is the better rebounder. But to say LeBron has gotten nowhere in his career is also funny as sh*t, is the LAST GAME vs the "best team" not enough while CARRYING them? Come on, Lebron is NOT KG and you really need to use new material if your going to try to actually keep up in a debate with me Nitro, there not the same people, LeBron successfully carried his team on a WAY less gifted team, and as far as who's better INDIVIDUALLY, James gets the nod.

 

And I don't see how ANYTHING is being taken away from Wade. He went from not being a top 5 player to being the 3rd best in more people's eyes but anyone that has seen both of them KNOWS that LeBron is the better player, and scorer. And Wade was not the leader of the team. It was Shaq and the rest of the vets. Wade was not the leader of the previous teams either and even though I liked him at Marquette I'd love to see him lose year after year when he loses Shaq with how overrated he has been. Shaq may have been defended just by Ben Wallace in that series but he cause more of a distraction than Ilgauskas inside and that helped Wade. LeBron was the leader this playoffs. On the floor and everywhere else. He carried his team and played very well in the playoffs. The only thing Wade is better in is defense and the championship which his team got him. 15 strong beats LeBron's 1 strong team anyday.And don't forget that LeBron was younger than Wade when he came to the league. He was younger and didn't have the experience from college and still ohas been better than Wade every year. And this year when he made the playoffs I'm pretty sure he was just as young as Wade was when he did and he had one of the best playoffs in history for players in the playoffs their first time. MJ wouldn't have won with that Cavs team and he's one of those "winners". Remember, he didn't do anything either earlier in his career until he got some real help.

 

[quote name='His Greatness' date='Aug 3 2006, 11:06 AM' post='130911'] You want to end it here? No sir, I'm just beginning and we'll see how good the "best debater" on the site really is, I'm not letting you take the backdoor exit like you always do in every debate. And "all these" amazing guys for the Cavs went 17-65 and I DOUBT a small role player like Eric Snow who's really not as amazing as you put him, Donyell who stays as a sixth man and Gooden who is inconsistent as hell would be able to make THAT much of a difference to probably the worst record team in the NBA. And all those good teammates I was speaking of were in need of a leader, James Posey isn't one to step up and do the work, it was either Dwyane or Shaq and evidently it was Wade who did the work. The Heat team all worked out with those "good teammates" because they functioned well as a TEAM and when one player is out of the drawing there obviously not going to be the same team.[/quote]The Heat team didn't work together and wasn't amazing as you say. No one stepped up for the team for 2 and 3/4 games in the Finals, so Wade did. In the conference Finals it was pretty much all Wade and Shaq killing the Pistons.

Never said Boozer didn't benefit from Bron, but Z did much more so. Boozer has shown with the Jazz he can still put up the numbers, even with injuries.And I acknowledged in my post Z had more PPG in 2002-2003 (once again, you illetirate bastard), but he had better FG %, more RPG, less TO's, more BPG, more SPG, etc...

Never said they were the better players. Players from HS never get to experience college, and of course there will be a ton of players from college that couldn't do it in the NBA due to the larger jump from college to NBA rather than HS to NBA (and there have been a ton of HS busts too). LeBron didn't do it by himself. Was he by far the biggest factor? Of course, but not the only reason. It took him 3 years to get a 17-65 team, and so much shuffling of the lineup that it is basically a totally different team from the 17-65 team, into a 50 win team. They got a lot of good role players, Hughes was very good when he played, and Z and Gooden do their jobs.

Bron's teammates are GOOD. Not great by ANY means, but are good. They all feed off Bron's capabilities, and they stepped up when Bron wasn't playing his best against the Pistons. They hit 3 GW shots in playoffs for Bron, one of them not assisted from the man. Wade didn't do it for one game, he did it in Game 5 with that shootout vs Dirk where both exploded in 4th and the GW free throws (remember the Howard timeout). Basically if people can say Jordan used to put his team on his back when they were on the ropes and carry them to wins, I can say same thing about Wade because he did exactly same thing.I watch most of the Cavs televised games, and saw 2 Cavs games in person (once his rookie year, once this season). One thing I noticed in both of the games, but moreso in this year's game, is when he caught fire he wouldn't ride it out, even when he was down. He wouldn't pull a Kobe or Wade and take over, he'd try to hit teammates and make them do it. Being a great playmaker and having great vision is an amazing trait the man has, but he still doesn't have that killer instinct that MJ or Kobe (or Wade) has yet.

I shouldn't have said sucked, but he played WAY below what he is expected to do against the Mavs in the Finals, that it really does piss me off he still gets so much credit for being the reason Wade played so well (not saying you said that, but other people bring it up).Shaq wasn't putting up his PPG numbers that he did in the season, especially in the most important series.

No Dallas isn't a better D than Detroit, but are still one of the better defensive teams in the L (yeesh, never thought I'd say that). And Bron put up slightly better numbers than Wade, but Wade had the better FG %, slightly more APG, more SPG, better FT % (there has been more than once that bron has choked with free throws), etc... And I expect Bron to put up those numbers when he is playmaker and his teammates aren't as good or demanding of the ball as Wade's. Wade isn't even the main playmaker anymore with the additions of GP and Jason.You said he played all 82, and I said he didn't, and you get bent all out of shape....mmmhmmm. Bron got slightly tougher defense, but the Pistons let both Wade and Bron shoot the jumpshot. Bron didn't hit, Wade did and his FG % was nearly 20% better. In the games Bron won, he was much better in assists and his teammates hit the shot while he took a backseat in scoring. Bron has teammates too, and they aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

His AMAZING play? Sorry, but 26/9/6 on 44% shooting and nearly 4.5 TO's isn't amazing by HIS standards (the same standards that got team 50 wins and out of 1st round). You can clearly see, in the 2 games they beat the Pistons convincingly, that Bron played the way that makes him special....his passing and court vision opened up shots for himself and he was more effieicent. Bron has killer instinct, but it still isn't on an elite level, and he still shows some signs of weakness and lack of confiedecne.

I stand by that opinion, and other people think the same way about player's like Snow who have been around for awhile and been farther. Veteran leadership is a big reason why young teams, especially in locker room, why very young teams do not play up to their ability.I really don't understand how you are not understanding this. They did same thing in 2003-2004 playoffs, and same thing in 2004-2005 playoffs. It worked in 2003-2004 against Kobe and Shaq, didn't really work in 2004-2005 as they were up 3-2 when Wade got injured, but they still decided to do it this year by trying their best to only single cover Shaq to prevent role players and players like Wade to blow up. It backfired bigtime.

He averaged 6APG in Detroit series, according to NBA.com, your favorite place... http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/index.html

Hmmm....ok so Bron isn't a better scorer than Allen iverson because he scores less? Give me a f*cking break, that arguement is ridiculous. Sorry, but I take the guy who may score less due to him being in situation where he can win (example-MJ scoring going down once his team started to finally win, despite not in his prime yet). Wade is more efficient, his midrange is more reliable and consistent than Bron's, which i take over a shaky 3pt and midrange shooter anyday. Is bron a bad shooter? No way. But Wade has a much better midrange game. If you're gonna say Wade isn't a better scorer, then you have to say MJ isn't a better socrer than Bron because he also didn't have a good 3pt shot and he also was more efficient, despite having less PPG in many years than Bron.

And all of that is fine, you believe that and I believe otherwise. Almost everything between these 2 is VERY debatable, whether you want to believe it or not.I know they are not the same people, but the same reasons TD is better is why Wade is better. Is Bron better than KG? Yes. But Wade has a championship, was the floor leader and carried (put on his back, whatever you want to call it) his team when they were down and out to put on one of the most amazing performances we will ever see. To me, that is like the best definition of leadership you will ever find. And once again dude, of you're gonna bi*ch about me saying T-Mac almost beat Pistons in 7 games in 2002-2003, then don't give yourself the double standard with LeBron. Bron had 2 chances to beat Pistons, team played well in game 6, but he couldn't get it done.I can definately argue on the leadership thing all day, and it is opinion on what you look for in a player to see who is better individually. You can argue scoring and their leadership all day, just depends on what you consider leadership. It's hard to compare playmaking when Wade isn't even the PG for his team while Bron is point forward. But defensively, clutch ability, and winning are clearly all in wade's favor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArizonaFan @ Aug 3 2006, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And I don't see how ANYTHING is being taken away from Wade. He went from not being a top 5 player to being the 3rd best in more people's eyes but anyone that has seen both of them KNOWS that LeBron is the better player, and scorer. And Wade was not the leader of the team. It was Shaq and the rest of the vets. Wade was not the leader of the previous teams either and even though I liked him at Marquette I'd love to see him lose year after year when he loses Shaq with how overrated he has been. Shaq may have been defended just by Ben Wallace in that series but he cause more of a distraction than Ilgauskas inside and that helped Wade. LeBron was the leader this playoffs. On the floor and everywhere else. He carried his team and played very well in the playoffs. The only thing Wade is better in is defense and the championship which his team got him. 15 strong beats LeBron's 1 strong team anyday.And don't forget that LeBron was younger than Wade when he came to the league. He was younger and didn't have the experience from college and still ohas been better than Wade every year. And this year when he made the playoffs I'm pretty sure he was just as young as Wade was when he did and he had one of the best playoffs in history for players in the playoffs their first time. MJ wouldn't have won with that Cavs team and he's one of those "winners". Remember, he didn't do anything either earlier in his career until he got some real help.</div>Bron IMO isn't better scorer and talent wise they are about equal. You seem to shrug off defense like it's nothing, but it is the main reason why Kobe and MJ are so highly regarded, and it's 1/2 the game. Does Wade have lockdown defense? No, but he is still a considerably better defender than Bron in defense. Offensively, as I said, can be debated. To me Wade has better midrange jumpshot that he uses very effectively, while Bron still isn't up to that point with his jumpshot from any point of the floor. If you want to give Bron nod in playmaking, fine. if you want to give Bron nod in leadership, fine. i give Wade nod in scoring, huge nod in winning (Unfair? yes. But it is still an attribute Wade has had for a long time, and what he did in Finals shows that). Add the defensive part, and to me Wade is the winner.How do YOU know MJ wouldn't have done what bron did in playoffs? MJ, the same guy who averaged like 40PPG in Finals, who had a 63pt game against the Boston Celtics of the '80's, and averaged 36 and 8 one year on better FG % than Bron (not to mention far better D).