Bron has had a history of not taking over game sin 4th and in 2nd halves, not just GW shots. Off top of my head I can name 2 instances this season where I saw where he dissapeared: Vs NJ (one of which i was at game, he was great in 1st half but in 3rd quarter when they were getting blown out he just wasn't there) and other, vs Lakers when Kobe lit him up in last 2min or so, and there were many more. remember where he went something like 1-3 in the 2nd half of the one game where they were well within the realm of beating whoever they faced. He didn't average same numbers. 20% is almost ridiculous. And once again, going so far below your usual standards in a 2nd round playoff series isn't stepping it up (and not to mention Wade would have been 2PPG over his average and even better FG % if not for flu and being benched in 4th due to blowout, whereas Bron played 47min of his game 7 and he was healthy). Wade made a more positive impact to his team, he got his points while taking far less shots so his teammates had more oppertunities to score, which in the Pistons series it worked (1st 2 games of finals it didn't work in which you saw Wade truly take over). And same thing goes for Wade in 2004-2005, he did great in 1st round, hit a GW, played above his average, played within his limits and they won. In 2nd round the guy blew up well above what he had done before, which Bron didn't do. Yes, I said I expected them to get to 2nd round but didn't expect them to beat the Pistons. I also expected Bron to average more PPG and somewhat put team on his back when team was down to win a game or 2. That is what you expect from a player many are regarding as best in the world. And both of us have very different ideas of great leadership. I feel you don't need to be only great player on team during season to be considered a leader, I feel that if you can be superman when your team needs you and almost always deliver, then you are just as good of a leader as a guy who led a decent supporting cast to 2nd round of playoffs.And people are riding Wade's jockstrap because what he did in playoffs, notably the Finals, are something that is so rarely seen in today's NBA. In season he is fantastic, with the best statline for a swingman/guard in league outside of LeBron. He shows up in every playoffs he has been in, proven he can do it with healthy Shaq, with unhealthy Shaq and without Shaq period. He is an unselfish player who is a great playmaker to go along with great scorer. He is also good defender (even made 2nd team all defense in 2004-2005). He is just so well rounded and great overall that it is not hard to see why people are hopping on the bandwagon.
He does? How about in the season vs. Boston taking over the whole game beginning the THIRD quarter? How about putting up 51 against Utah WITH a sore knee AGAINST AK47? Dude took over the whole game. How about putting up 32 in the second half against Phoenix? How about that VERY LAST MATCHUP of Dwyane vs. Lebron? Seriously, I could just rattle down the list of what he's done in this season alone, because saying he doesn't take over games in general is just ridiculous. And once again, are you even reading my posts? HE WAS THE ONLY ONE ON HIS TEAM THAT WAS PERFORMING THE SLIGHTEST BIT, WELL. He was the only impact at all for the Cavaliers the whole series! What more can you expect from a guy? And in Game 7, don't even ignore the fact that LeBron's teammates went f*cking 9/41 from the floor. How the hell are you going to perform well and take over a game against a Detroit defense when your teammates are sucking it up and the defense is primarily focused on ONE player, and guess who it was. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>somewhat put team on his back when team was down to win a game or 2</div>*sigh*...You don't get it do you? HE WAS PUTTING THE TEAM ON HIS BACK the whole Detroit series! Seriously man, Jordan couldn't even overcome the odds that LeBron had stacked against him. And if performing in a playoff series when your team "needs you" beats out performing every day, when your team <u>"needs you" everyday</u>, then I don't even want to know who you think the best leader in the NBA is. And when has he proven he can put up everything as the "same Dwyane Wade" without Shaq? TWO playoff games!!?? You think TWO GAMES defines as to how much you can do for your team when arguably the most important one is out of the scheme? F*ck outta here with that, man, he's always been the Dwyane Wade with Shaq that performs amazingly and until Shaq is traded or retires that certain factor will always be used against him and dictate how well he can do without O'Neal. And LeBron James is an unselfish player, amazing playmaker along to go with an AMAZING scorer and arguably the most versatile player in he L.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Aug 4 2006, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He does? How about in the season vs. Boston taking over the whole game beginning the THIRD quarter? How about putting up 51 against Utah WITH a sore knee AGAINST AK47? Dude took over the whole game. How about putting up 32 in the second half against Phoenix? How about that VERY LAST MATCHUP of Dwyane vs. Lebron? Seriously, I could just rattle down the list of what he's done in this season alone, because saying he doesn't take over games in general is just ridiculous.</div>He has had his moments, but he has also choked and dissapeared many times as well. And not dissapearing as in not playing well, but just not taking big shots and trying to take over game as int aking 3 shots total. Again, there are some questions about his abilities with that, along with what he does in clutch (although he is starting to shake that off).<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And once again, are you even reading my posts? HE WAS THE ONLY ONE ON HIS TEAM THAT WAS PERFORMING THE SLIGHTEST BIT, WELL. He was the only impact at all for the Cavaliers the whole series! What more can you expect from a guy? And in Game 7, don't even ignore the fact that LeBron's teammates went f*cking 9/41 from the floor. How the hell are you going to perform well and take over a game against a Detroit defense when your teammates are sucking it up and the defense is primarily focused on ONE player, and guess who it was. *sigh*...You don't get it do you? HE WAS PUTTING THE TEAM ON HIS BACK the whole Detroit series! Seriously man, Jordan couldn't even overcome the odds that LeBron had stacked against him. And if performing in a playoff series when your team "needs you" beats out performing every day, when your team <u>"needs you" everyday</u>, then I don't even want to know who you think the best leader in the NBA is.</div>His teammates stepped up in the games he won. And int he games they lost he didn't have 35-40pt games which i would expect from a guy in 2nd round who averaged 31PPG in season. I wouldn't even mind if his FG % was only 43-44%, at leats i would know he was still getting job done since his teammates didn't show up 4 of the 7 games. Don't bring Jordan into this. I am sure if MJ scored 63pts in a playoff game against the Boston Celtics of the '80's he coulda squeezed out a win (especially either game 6 or game 2) over the Pistons. I doubt he would ahve also allowed Tayshaun Prince to play so well in that series.He had team on his back, but didn't take them anywhere with his less than stellar series. I expect from a player of James' caliber to at least get his points if his teammates aren't doing it, but he didn't do it. And Wade does it in season, in playoffs, he does it all the time when team needs him. When they don't need that kind of game, and when Shaq is playing well, he has no reason to, just like MJ didn't have to take over every game in the championship years with Scottie.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And when has he proven he can put up everything as the "same Dwyane Wade" without Shaq? TWO playoff games!!?? You think TWO GAMES defines as to how much you can do for your team when arguably the most important one is out of the scheme? F*ck outta here with that, man, he's always been the Dwyane Wade with Shaq that performs amazingly and until Shaq is traded or retires that certain factor will always be used against him and dictate how well he can do without O'Neal. And LeBron James is an unselfish player, amazing playmaker along to go with an AMAZING scorer and arguably the most versatile player in he L.</div>He did it in his first playoffs, in the Detroit series and Finals this year (where Shaq was only averaging 13PPG and his best role players outside of Antoine were down in production) and has done it in season with and without Shaq (as you mentioned early, that amazing head to head between Bron and wade when Wade didn't have Williams, Zo or Shaq). And MJ never won sh*t without Scottie, who was much better than Shaq has played this past year, so don't give me that crap. Wade has a ring, finals MVP, one of the great Finals performances ever when team was down (and Shaq not playing until last 2min due to the hack a Shaq sh*t). His numbers are very comparable to bron's, his talent is very comparable to Bron, leadership is comparable, but difference is Wade has a ring, finals MVP and better defender (which is half the game). DAMMIT I am very late to meet my mom, this is my last post I just wanted to say it was a good debate, you made some good points, but I still feel Wade is better and you still feel Bron is better. We made our points, it was fun and extremely tiring (I haven't been to sleep in well over 24 hours). Hopefully somewhere down the road we will meet each other again in another debate.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='132195' date='Aug 4 2006, 05:11 PM'] He has had his moments, but he has also choked and dissapeared many times as well. And not dissapearing as in not playing well, but just not taking big shots and trying to take over game as int aking 3 shots total. Again, there are some questions about his abilities with that, along with what he does in clutch (although he is starting to shake that off).[/quote]Wow, dude has taken over games WAY MORE than he's "choked" in clutch times, I think we can both agree that Sam Cassell is a great clutch player and according to 82games, HE's HIT ZERO GAMEWINNERS. God, he's no Kevin Garnett so don't act as if he was, he's TAKEN clutch shots so don't create some fabricated bullsh** to support your argument. Wow, you're really just relentless even in places where you've been proved wrong several times, aren't you? Yeah man, it was all his teammates stepping up You can't honestly even expect 30+ easy points neither when your teammates are playing as terrible as they were.If his teammates aren't doing it, HOW THE HELL IS HE GOING TO DO IT "all by himself" when his teammates are cold? One man cannot bring the scoring load by himself AGAINST DETROIT DEFENSE. NOONE can, and hardly ever do you see Dwyane Wade carrying the scoring load by himself neither which is why he has is so much easier. Wait, he did it in the Detroit series? Well I could've sworn you said Shaq had his BEST SERIES in Detroit and that his teammates were "on fire", but so now he did it by HIMSELF? Oh and would you stop using f*cking numbers as proof as to saying he "did it by himself"? Shaq NEVER went cold, Dwyane's teammates in GENERAL never went cold, NOR DID THEY GO 9/41 from the floor! Oh and who won that game in the last confrontation? That's what I thought. And it's kind of hard saying MJ never won sh*t without Scottie as he PLAYED EVERY SEASON IN HIS CAREER WITH SCOTTIE (aside from that stint with Washington when he was well out of his time). And the other difference is Wade has a better team which alone speaks for itself. Can't believe what you are saying though, not only are you implying that Dwyane can play BETTER than Michael but also that he can LEAD and CARRY a team better? Wow man, you itched back and forth, here and there but that was by far probably the most absurd thing you've said.
Since DWade is actually active in all 3 of the major categories unlike players like KB, I would say that LBJ is a little by a "tiny" bit. And mark my words when i say "tiny".
[quote name='His Greatness' post='132211' date='Aug 4 2006, 06:47 PM']Wow, dude has taken over games WAY MORE than he's "choked" in clutch times, I think we can both agree that Sam Cassell is a great clutch player and according to 82games, HE's HIT ZERO GAMEWINNERS. God, he's no Kevin Garnett so don't act as if he was, he's TAKEN clutch shots so don't create some fabricated bullsh** to support your argument.[/quote]Taking over doesn't mean ahving a 30pt game or 40pt game and winning by a 10pt margin. When I say take over I am referring to when teammates aren't getting job done, when team is down, he can put team on his back and carry them to win. Bron has had a notorious history of not doing that. He HAS done it, but not with the frequency that a superstar is supposed to do it with. I'd rather see him go 3-15 in a 2nd half and lose a close game than him go 1-3 and lose a close game. I was never proven wrong. Wade had a ridiculously high % and knew when to step back and when to turn it on, and Bron didn't (when teammates aren't playing well, his first instinct should be SCORE, even if it means putting up near 40 shots like Kobe and AI have done in the past). Bron played considerably below his averages, and considering he didn't have Shaq in the middle, he should have done more scoring wise. Who said it would be easy? I never did. But he still has to get job done, even if it means lower FG %. Oooooo he led his team in scoring, he REALLY deserves a big pat on the back for that! He id the team leader, best player on team, and I expect when his teammates aren't hitting their shots that Bron makes up for those points. He didn't. And Wade carried scoring load himself in finals: Zo was at 2PPG, Shaq and Walker were at around 13PPG, Williams was at 8PPG, Haslem was at 6PPG, and Posey was at 7PPG. Considering the Heat were facing one of best offenses in NBA with Terry/Dirk/Howard/Stack, etc... someone had to step up. In game 1 and 2 no one did, not Shaq, not Wade, the role players, no one. Wade stepped up to plate and carried scoring load for rest of series by averaging close to 40PPG. And guess what? Even though he was only at 44% for series like bronw as against Pistons, he forced himself to make up for the points and took over when it counted. That is the clear difference between Bron and Wade. I never said Wade did it by himself in Detroit series. I said Wade has proven he can play huge and step up in more than just 2 games, with healthy Shaq, without healthy Shaq (which has been basically all year) and without Shaq period. Shaq may have never went cold, but he didn't have the killer instinct and will to take over that he had in LA or the year before. In Finals Shaq has always been a beast with 3 finals MVP's, and had 27PPG against Detroit in the Finals they lost. Dwyane didn't have that kind of luxory this year. And it isn't like they were playing the Nets...they wer eplaying one of the best offensive teams in the league in the Mavs who had heat beat through 2 and 3/4 games. What happenned? Dwyane Wade.Bron won last confrontation, but they were both on fire. bron had a trip while Wade was 2 assists and 1 rebound from a trip and shot 50% while having 44 points and only one TO. And like all year, injuries and change in offense due to no Shaq, Zo or Posey. And don't kid yourself, when Shaq, Zo and Posey aren't there you go from 2 of the best centers in league to having almost no low post presence (Haslem is more of a shooter) and go from having a very good shooter in Posey to having maybe 3 decent shooters outside of Wade (not to mention Walker went 2-10 for the game). No he didn't, MJ's first 3 seasons were played without Scottie, and it took Scottie about 2 seasons to really get going, so that's about 5 seasons where he had no all star Scottie Pippen. Never implied that, but there is no questions the Bulls of the '90's were better than this Miami team. Scottie was playing like a top 50 player all time when they were winning 'chips. Even when MJ wasn't on the team they made the ECF. Pippen was one fo better perimeter defenders of all time, and a great offensive force who did almost all the playmking for MJ, while MJ was in Kobe's current spot of the triangle as pure scorer. While Wade didn't play amazing in the 1st series, if he wasn't there no way is Miami beating Chicago, who pushed the Heat moreso than even the Pistons did.Bottom line is you can't take away from Wade because he is playing with a top 2 center in league (I'm sorry, but I really feel Yao has moved into that position of #1) and good supporting cast. He won a championship as the undisputed best player on team, and whether you want to admit it or not, putting the team on his back when they looked down and out and carried them to championship. I PERSONALLY find Wade's leadership, in regular seaosn, in playoffs and in past years, in which when team is down or desperately needs him and he pretty much always shows up just as amazing as Bron bringing his decent team to an overachieving near upset 2nd round.Uck, this took a long time on this shi**y computer. This WILL likely be my last post until I get back home in around 2 weeks, but as you continue with the insults and your hypocritical views, even after the fact I tried to politely say it was a good debate and I wanted to end on a good note, I will continue with this debate.
The thing that makes Lebron so damn scary is that the guy put up: 31.4 PPG, 7 RPG and 6.6 APG in his 3rd season outta high school, and he's STILL got upside. Not to mention that he hauled the Cavs to a 50 win season as the one and only Alpha-dog on the squad.Compare that to Wade, Lebron kinda looks to be running away in this race.But one thing that will always make Wade a viable player to compare against Lebron is Wade's ability to take over games. In that, Dwayne knows WHEN to do it and then he DOES IT. Lebron's not shown that quite yet. Cuz if he did, the Cav's woulda been playing the Heat in the Eastern finals and that would really help everyone argue who's the better player more definitively.Verdict - Lebron's a better player...but Wade knows how to win.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='132465' date='Aug 5 2006, 12:27 AM'] Taking over doesn't mean ahving a 30pt game or 40pt game and winning by a 10pt margin. When I say take over I am referring to when teammates aren't getting job done, when team is down, he can put team on his back and carry them to win. Bron has had a notorious history of not doing that. He HAS done it, but not with the frequency that a superstar is supposed to do it with. I'd rather see him go 3-15 in a 2nd half and lose a close game than him go 1-3 and lose a close game.[/quote]There goes your guiless approach to the debate again. Winning by a 10 PT Margin can be the result of taking over a game. You hear that? Everytime you take over a game or come up big is not specified for only "being clutch" or a "close game". The Lakers won by 18 PTs and I think I can easily say that was one of the prime examples of taking over a game. And wait, so there's a set limit for when superstars are supposed to take over games now? And then you go on to talk about putting a team on his back when in fact LeBron does it coherently on a DAILY BASIS, so what's your point? Everything you're saying really negates your other points in a different phrasing, two sides to a coin, man. That's not even the part of the reply that was refuting your argument! If you even read my reply, let alone conjure what you were saying, you said: All the games won in the Detroit series were because of his <u>teammates</u>. And so it seems like you've just evaded EVERYTHING said in there; When you're facing a defense like Detroit, best in the league and YOUR TEAMMATES are all bricking shots, the defense's primary focus is going to be ON YOU, not the teammates! His teammates went f*cking 9/41 from the floor and that game and LeBron still managed to put up 27. Noone could've overcame the defense LeBron had to face, and I'd much rather have a 13 PPG Shaq with the hugest inside presence over ANY of LeBron's teammates. Nice job avoiding all the points, though. How did he do it without Shaq, when SHAQ WAS PLAYING THE WHOLE DETROIT SERIES ?? You gonna come up with some more bullsh** trying to cover that when in fact YOU SAID that Shaq had his best series against Detroit. He's never even proven himself that he's been able to do it "without Shaq'" because frankly Diesel plays with Dwyane the majority of the games, and I'm sorry but I find it hard to actually enact as if playing amazing in 2 games means you can get it done "without" Shaq, don't even say the "Washington" series neither, he was gone for 2 days, don't say his his Playoffs in his rookie season neither, as he was averaging 18 PPG in the whole playoffs, so what's going to be your scapegoat this time? Wait hold on, where was Dwyane when his <u>"team needed him"</u>??!! Why didn't he "<u>jack up 50 shots</u>"?? Why didn't he just "take over the WHOLE GAME" REGARDLESS of what he was going up against and what negatives affected them throughout the course of the game? The U-turn in thoughts is amazing now, isn't it Nitro? So you think Jordan hasn't "done anything" without Pippen because he had no "chips" without him, right? Answer this for me and then I'll write up my reply to that. Wow, first you said JORDAN was Floor General and now Scottie is the floor general? Make up your mind man, Pippen ran the offense....just pointing out that blatant contradiction for you. Yes, you can, if you can take away from LeBron for having a worst roster and generally playing worse in some certain situations where his teammates were vital, then yes you can. People criticize MJ because he never won without Scottie, Kobe to Shaq..KG to Cassell, etc. etc. so it'd only decent enough to give the same treatment to Dwyane, he's not special. Until, he can do something WITHOUT Shaq's presence that certain gimmick is always going to stick with him. And whether you want to admit it or not, he DID NOT carry his team regardless of "Shaq averaging frickin' 13 PPG", or "noone stepping up", he LED the team but the presence of his other teammates alone conceded for him to step up and perform better, so don't give me that stat bullsh**, it doens't cut it. He LED the team to a championship, LeBron found himself having to lead his team the whole year. And what "hypocritical" views? You're the one that saying something on a certain subject, and then converting around to critcize LeBron with the exact same logic, not only hypocritical but contradictory at the same time. And IM the one with the insults? As far as I know, you've been the first one to deliver the direct insults (spewing dumb sh*t)...Keep 'em coming, man. :happy0144:
Between these two I would take Lebron but I think Wade is the second best player in the league. Yeah the athleticism is too much to handle for other teams. Lebron can pass, rebound, and shoot from anywhere and even block shots so I would give him the slight edge over Wade.
I have not once contradicted myself or used same logic I used for Wade against LeBron. I made one mistake with stats, and that was for Z (I was looking at his profile at NBA.com and read his 2001-2002 stats instead of 2002-2003). You kept saying check NBA.com and all that, yet you made more than one mistake with stats, also. You insulted me more than once, and despite what you may think, using massive amounts of sarcasim and making things in caps is insulting as it tries to make me look inferior, which i find quite disrespectful. This IS my last post for awhile, as I have to leave for airport in about an hour and a half (plane leaves for Louisville at 9:55). I really do want to call a truce and just end this, as we are finally reaching the point of just going in circles and making the same arguements each reply. Are you willing to make one last post and end this? It was a pretty good debate, and bottom line we have different definitions for these 5 things: Carrying a team, leading a team, taking over a game, what makes a great scorer and floor general. That is why we keep debating not on the player's attributes but rather on 1 or 2 individual series'. That makes this debate somewhat senseless, as we have strayed away from debating different attributes of each player. I feel we both made our points, and it has come time to end this. I really do respect you, do not like some of the things that were said in this thread and of course we greatly disagree on this subject, but I do respect that you have a pretty good intelect towards the subject.If you truly want to keep debating this, I just saved a response to your post just in case, but I feel that we have said what we needed to say, debated just about everything to the ground, and nothing useful has been coming from the debate in last 5-6 replies from both of us. I call a truce (for now, you can bet your a$$ sometime during this season we will be debating this same topic).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Aug 5 2006, 05:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have not once contradicted myself or used same logic I used for Wade against LeBron. I made one mistake with stats, and that was for Z (I was looking at his profile at NBA.com and read his 2001-2002 stats instead of 2002-2003). You kept saying check NBA.com and all that, yet you made more than one mistake with stats, also. You insulted me more than once, and despite what you may think, using massive amounts of sarcasim and making things in caps is insulting as it tries to make me look inferior, which i find quite disrespectful. This IS my last post for awhile, as I have to leave for airport in about an hour and a half (plane leaves for Louisville at 9:55). I really do want to call a truce and just end this, as we are finally reaching the point of just going in circles and making the same arguements each reply. Are you willing to make one last post and end this? It was a pretty good debate, and bottom line we have different definitions for these 5 things: Carrying a team, leading a team, taking over a game, what makes a great scorer and floor general. That is why we keep debating not on the player's attributes but rather on 1 or 2 individual series'. That makes this debate somewhat senseless, as we have strayed away from debating different attributes of each player. I feel we both made our points, and it has come time to end this. I really do respect you, do not like some of the things that were said in this thread and of course we greatly disagree on this subject, but I do respect that you have a pretty good intelect towards the subject.If you truly want to keep debating this, I just saved a response to your post just in case, but I feel that we have said what we needed to say, debated just about everything to the ground, and nothing useful has been coming from the debate in last 5-6 replies from both of us. I call a truce (for now, you can bet your a$$ sometime during this season we will be debating this same topic).</div>Sarcasm and insults aren't of the same thing, buddy boy. I use sarcasm to show that I'm not at all serious, least I'm not getting into a heated discussion, so there's no need to be bitching because you countered with a response to of the same nature, even in which you directly insulted me. And since when is TYPING IN CAPS, disrespectful? I used it to highlight thigs since you missed a mass amount of the points at hand during the debate. And you contradicted yourself once? Sure you did, man, but whatever, avoid or evade, dodge or whatever, I don't care, this is like the third time in which you had to make a new post so the whole debate goes into a different disposition. I'm not calling a truce neither, put it on hold if you want, but the debate is going to be won because I'm not ending this whole fiasco with all ths being said, with nothing proven. Go on with your vacation, have fun, do whatever, etc.
wade. he has the ring simply because he stood up when it counted!!wade. he has the ring simply because he stood up when it counted!!
Wade has the ring because he stood up when it counted? So I'm guessing every other time, he doesn't step up at all, and all this beats out LeBron who steps up EVERYDAY in his career? Give me a break...stepping up when it "counts" is another horrible reason for Dwyane jockies to jump on him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Aug 6 2006, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> Wade has the ring because he stood up when it counted? So I'm guessing every other time, he doesn't step up at all, and all this beats out LeBron who steps up EVERYDAY in his career? Give me a break...stepping up when it "counts" is another horrible reason for Dwyane jockies to jump on him.</div>]Oh Wade steps up when he is needed. When Marquette needed someone to tkae them to the Final Four. Who did it? Dwyane Wade. When Miami needed someone to lead them past New Orleans who did it? ROOKIE Dwyane Wade. When Shaq was out with that thigh injury in 05, Who carried them to the Conference Finals(a place LeBron has never been before in his entire career)? Dwyane Wade. When Miami was in need of a heroic ending with 6 minutes left in Game 3 of the NBA Finals down 13 who came to the rescue? Dwyane "Flash" Wade.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nazr McWallace @ Aug 6 2006, 04:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>wade. he has the ring simply because he stood up when it counted!!</div>What are you talking about man, he fell down when it counted. And the refs called the foul.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diesel @ Aug 6 2006, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>]Oh Wade steps up when he is needed. When Marquette needed someone to tkae them to the Final Four. Who did it? Dwyane Wade. When Miami needed someone to lead them past New Orleans who did it? ROOKIE Dwyane Wade. When Shaq was out with that thigh injury in 05, Who carried them to the Conference Finals(a place LeBron has never been before in his entire career)? Dwyane Wade. When Miami was in need of a heroic ending with 6 minutes left in Game 3 of the NBA Finals down 13 who came to the rescue? Dwyane "Flash" Wade.</div>And when the Cavs went 17-65, who turned the team around? Answer is obvious He steps up when he is "needed" when superstars should step up everytime, which LeBron does since it's pretty much practical for his team.Plus, I'm not the one that said Shaq's leadership was questionable
Yay, I'm back. 2 weeks turned out to be 3 weeks, but whatever.His greatness- No one can win this. Neither you or I have changed our stance. BUT over the first few days of my vacation I really sat down and thought about this debate. I tried to put it into a point system of how important I feel each category is to prove Wade would win, but it came out way too lopsided towards Wade when in reality I feel this is a very close debate. So I tweaked it, and it still looked a bit wrong. Bottom line I feel Wade is better scorer (you feel AI is a better scorer than Bron, so arguing this is absolutely senseless), defender (no matter how you cut it, it is still half the game and what "wins championships"), clutch player and equal/slightly better leader. Bron is better playmaker (the one thing I have changed my mind on), rebounder, and carrier of team on nightly basis (something that Wade won't be able to prove for another few years).The biggest thing I was really thinking about was just that, leadership. And right this second, if I was on their teams, who would I look up to more: A player who led his HS team to greatness and put that school in limelight (although him getting suspended for those jersey's was not good publicity lol). A player who brought a 17 win team to what, 35 win team? Next year as leader going from 4th place all the way to 9th place in the span of like 2 months, and then next year getting over hurdle with average team to 2nd round of playoffs, and while Bron didn't have great series statistically, he still led team to 7 game series. Now take into consideration all the individual accolades/strengths- ASG MVP, ROTY, 2nd or 3rd MVP candidate this past season, great scorer, best pure court vision in league with exceptions of Kidd and Nash, and of course the best statline in the league. OR would you look up to a player who in college led his team to final 4 with 22PPG/6.5RPG/4APG/2.2SPG, and shooting over 50%. A player who in his 1st year stepped up HUGBE in playoffs with 2 GW shots and the best series in playoffs by a rookie that year. Next year led team in playoffs with injured Shaq (few games without Shaq) and if it wasn't for his injury, not Shaq's, they would have won the ECF. Next year leads team to 50 win season, with injured superstar 2nd option, injured role players, coaching changes, and a team chemistry that took a whole season and 1 round of the playoffs to start gelling together. Has amazing ECF, and in Finals totally blows up when team is in the slums and averages nearly 40PPG over next 4 games, including 2 of the greatest 4th quarter performances in NBA finals history to win the NBA championship. Accolades/strengths- Finals MVP, darkhorse MVP candidate, always comes up in clutch, Final 4 appearence, great scorer, great passer, and best statline for a guard/SF not named LeBron.That is basically how I have been able to cut it down, and it is all opinion on who you'd look up to more. We can argue individual series and games all day, but that is so extremely pointless and tiresome. That is how I broke it down, and if I was a player I'd look up to Wade more. Bron is a bit more vocal on court, but Wade has the V-E-R-Y rare and special ability to take over a game in the 4th, as in totally take over like Kobe can do. Bron has improved this area of his game, but he still didn't do it against Pistons, didn't do it quite a bit in regular season, but has improved quite a bit. Then you look at the accolades, and while Bron has more awards than Wade and a slightly better statline, Wade's accomplishments to me are much more coorelated to playing amazing ball to win a team related thing in clutch times rather than pure individual accolades in regular season.Once again, I want this to end. We seriously have gotten nowhere, and playing the quote game is just too tiring and boring.
"I'm not calling a truce neither, put it on hold if you want, but the debate is going to be won because I'm not ending this whole fiasco with all ths being said, with nothing proven. "Bro, I was so reluctant before because I wanted to end it or come to some kind of conclusion so I wouldn't think about it during vacation (which ended up happenning). But now that I am back, if you truly want war I'll give everything I have, but the pages and pages of doing the quote crap are boring and get nothing done...especially when they are all about individual games/playoff series'. I gave my reasoning, give yours, and it will end fairly quickly. Hopefully by now you realize that neither of us are gonna change our minds on who is the better player, as you feel Bron is the clear winner, and I feel Wade is the clear winner. I have said why I feel Wade is better, but rather than make a case to why Bron is better you have just combatted everything I have said trying to prove me wrong (which will never be done considering it is an opinion I feel strongly about). Give your reasons to why Bron is better, I gave mine, we can make a few posts to why we disagree with each other, and it'll be over. I am really not in the mood to keep debating this, but I would like to sort of end this the right way.
