BYU mens basketball team!

There definately are a lot of "'nesians" at BYU and in the church in general. West Valley, Utah (Salt Lake Metro) has a ton of them. I think part of the attraction is that the church is very family oriented as is the polynesian culture as I understand it anyway. There's actually a Mormon poly congregation in Portland. We used to play ball against them when I was younger in regional tournaments.

 

Yeah. weird to see a BYU Hawaii campus.

 

Yep. I had several friends go to college there. The Polynesian Cultural Center near the campus is a big tourist attraction for Mormons that go to Hawaii. I don't know what the patronage from non-Mormons is like at the center.

 

Well, I guess those who come forward with their honesty should be commended... oh wait, I mean punished for it. The world did not end and the school was not sucked into a giant demon spewing hole in the ground because the guy had premarital sex. Hopefully he'll realize that. The code seems to punish the honest & those who don't come forward may live with life long guilt or figure out that rules only matter if people find out you broke them(true).

However, I am pretty sure the code and the religious belief is indeed to preserve ones virginity for marriage, as I think if one has "No Premarital" sex that does mean that they've never had any sex before marriage. However they'll probably give you a pass if you confess all your naughty dealings to a creepy old(er) Elder.

Ultimately, he did sign on the dotted line & if he agrees to tormenting himself within that society, that's his choice I guess. I just don't get it though.

 

They aren't the only things that excite me, but if I wish to partake in them in moderation, so be it. In fact the alcohol and drugs part, I rarely partake in much these days anyways. When we get into the realm of covering women up for sanctity reasons and outlawing caffeine its a bit ridiculous. If a girl wants to feel pretty and she can't because her religion is telling her how she should dress, its a bit old fashioned. This is 2011.

When I was in high school I moved from an urban school to a suburban school and got to know a lot of Mormons. In fact, I grew up across the street from a Mormon family. Not all, but a lot of them are very judgemental. If my dad, or brother wanted to have a beer on the front porch we would get glares from the father of the Mormon family across the street. It was to the point where they wouldn't even look at us. Keep in mind, I grew up Catholic (okay that probably opens me up to criticism as well). The Mormons at school formed cliques and stuck to themselves. There was always exceptions, of course.

 

Also,

I hope Davies transfers to my Zags so we can mop the court against the Stormin' Mormons in the WCC for years to cum.

 

Intentional or Freudian?

 

lol, obviously intentional.

 

Can a woman feel pretty without having her tits out all over the place? I've never been a woman myself, but I feel as though there's plenty of room for a woman to feel pretty and dress modestly.

Was that clique any different than the cliques of theater kids, or athletes, or Asians, or band kids, or any other more common clique that developed for people to be around others like them? And for the record, I say more common because I don't think you run into too many Mormons in the Boston area and the guy I work with now is the first openly Mormon person I've met.

 

Gee, I dunno. Some sects of Mormonism one gets multiple wives. A little threesome or foursome action can be mighty fun on a cold night. A warm one, too.

Also, what's a 'nesians. Is that S2 talk for 'lesbian'?

 

So what you're saying is that as long as I come forward and am honest about things I've done, all should be forgiven? How does that work with murderers and rapists? Yeah, yeah, those are extreme examples, but the principle is the same. There's a standard in place that was violated. Coming forward and admitting that you violated the standard doesn't immediately obsolve you of the consequences of the violation. I completely understand why most wouldn't think the punishment fits the 'crime.' I won't agrue that point only to say what I've already said, the school and the church consider sex outside of marriage to be serious enough to suspend. I could go into the religous reasons for this, but I'm not sure it's really relevant to the conversation.

I'm not really sure why getting suspended from the team equates with the end of the world. Maybe because such a big deal has been made about it? Although I don't know, I'm sure it's not uncommon for students to be suspended for sex. This instance has blown up because of the publicity BYU is getting this year. No one associated is making out to be anything more than a violation of school rules. Since I don't know Davies personally, I can't attest to how he'll handle it. I can say though that the doctrines of the Mormon church, when understood, do not illicate feelings of life-long guilt. When someone committs a sin, they are to be encouraged and supported as they go through the repentance process. I know I'm delving into religiousity, but bear with me so I can explain the principle. There are definitely people who are going to be judgmental (people are people), but that is not what the church teaches. Those that cast stones are not living by the tenants of the church. As for the individual that commits the sin, yes, if they don't repent or don't fully understand what repentance does for them, then they may feel guilty the rest of their life. But again, they are miss understanding the doctrines of the church. I realize people may think I'm splitting hairs with my explaination. You probably think that growing up Mormon and having these 'unrealistic' and 'unfair' expectations of ones self forces one into feelings of guilt. Well, yes, that's true, to the extent that the remorseful feelings cause that person to turn to Christ to repent from their sin. Part of the repentance process is forgiving yourself. The extended guilt people may feel comes from not forgiving their self, not because the Mormon church says you should feel like crap the rest of your life.

Of course the code has to do with preserving virginity. The rule is to not engage in sex outside of marriage. I guess I may have misinterpreted your previous statement. All I was saying is that when you violate that particular part of the code, that's the puinishment. It's not any different that being suspended for cheating. There's a rule that was violated and a punishment attached to that rule.

As you said, you don't agree with the code or the punishment and wouldn't "torment" yourself by becoming apart of that society, and that's fine. I have no hard feelings toward anyone who thinks that way. I just want to make sure nothing is misrepresented and maybe shed some light on the 'secret' ways of the Mormons.

 

I agree. You're free to do what you like. I choose not to 1) because I've been commanded not to (religious reason) and 2) because the enjoyment I might get from doing those things don't seem to be worth the risks (secular reason). I think Agoo responded to the women covering themselves part of this appropriately. From a Mormon standpoint, I'll again give the religious reasons for a dress code. We believe that our physical bodies are one of the most important gifts we've been given by God. As such, to do things to or with our bodies that are against God's wishes are essentially disrespecting the gift. Again, you can debate what is and isn't against God's wishes, but I'm just providing the info. As for dress standards, there is a general feeling that those who flaunt their sexuality through short shorts and skirts and low cut tops aren't just 'using what yo mama gave ya' but treating yourself with disrespect. Now I know there are plenty out there that dress povocatively (maybe not so in their opinion) and have tons of self respect. Another argument that I imagine many of you would take issue with is that by dressing in revealing fashsion, you're aiding those that would be attracted to such things to lust after you and think impure thoughts. I know, I know, if people can't handle seeing a little clevage without going all perve, they have serious problems. But you have to look at it in context. Mormons view that all children of God should not only do what they need to personally to return to heaven, but help your brothers and sisters do the same. By flashing your boobs to a guy you're not helping him live by the standards God has set for keeping your thoughts pure. The same can be said about guys who tight revealing clothing. I think it's fair to say that the emphasis is with women's fashions, but that mostly because those are more suspect to standards than mens fashsions. You may be interested in knowing that the church counsels against men and boys dressing sloppily and having an unkept appearance (hence the shaving rules). I know it sounds like you're pawning off your lack of self control to someone else, but when you look at it from a community perspective where everyone is trying to help everyone else live a certain standard, then it's a little more palletable thought. There are other reasons too, but those are probably the most prominent.

I'm sorry you had a bad encounter with a judgmental Mormon family. That will happen. There are A LOT of judgmental Mormons. I can say, however, that they are not living by the tenants of the church. I appreciate that you recognize that that's not a universal trait of Mormons. As for cliques, yeah, that does happen too. Again, I think Agoo hit it on the head, but I'll elaborate. I understand why people think Mormons are cliquish and elitist when they don't associate with those outside the faith. Call it judgmental, but part of the reason for the seperation is that they don't want to expose themselves to things they've been taught are bad. Swearing, drinking, smoking, drugs, sex, etc. seem to be what life revolves around in high school, does it not? Isn't it easier to avoid smoking or drinking by avoiding those who do so or going to parties where those things are present? I realize there are a lot of assumptions made in making those determinations about people, but for someone that's been taught to avoid those things like the plague, it makes sense to create you social circle around those with the same standards. I know that leaves good people in the cold that could have been life long friends if Mormons would be more inclusive, but maybe you can at least see why Mormons do such things even if you may not agree with them.

As for Davies to the Zags, if he chose to, I'd be down with that. I'm currently at Gonzaga Law School and have enjoyed the Zags hoops team for a while.

 

Polynesians. Hawaiians, Togans, Samoans, New Zealanders, etc.

 

So are you allowed to have a beard at any point, or is my co-worker rebelling?

 

Well having sex with your girlfriend is nothing like rape or murder. It's pretty inconsequential(so long as informed parties are involved) except in the eyes of God(at least according to the religious). He's being punished because he broke the honor code, which leads to the question, why is that part of the honor code? Which leads to the answer that Mormons(like many religions) believe one must preserve their "sexual purity" until they are married. Why, well... something God said you should do or a bunch of old guys said we should do... Not exactly clear & most people who follow the religion equate it to some form of purity that is fuzzy at best. The fact is, there is no way to get your virginity back, when it's gone it's gone.

Actually I am kind of thinking that they either shouldn't have come down on him at all or he should have been expelled from the school forever. You've sinned in a way that cannot be unsinned. Does the book say it's a sin to have sex before marriage? Yes or No? You sinned, you're outta here. It's actually a little ticky tacky to say "you're out for the season, but come back next season"... Umm, will his virginity be back by then? Frankly it'll just tell him that if he has sex with his girlfriend to keep his trap shut or else any hope of a basketball career might get flushed.

For a high level athlete, missing games can be a big deal.

Suspension which brings a high level of publicity on one of your star players & his girlfriend is "support", not so great. It would be silly to think the school didn't think they'd get some sort of attention over this.

Many are judgmental and the school itself is passing judgment. I guess it's hard not to be judgmental in the world.

I am well aware of religious guilt. Usually religion doesn't have very good reasons behind the feelings of guilt. Often the feelings of the guilty are spurred more by a fear of "Death By God" rather than an actual understanding on why something is actually "sinful". Often things that "feel good" are listed as being "sinful" so as to purposefully torture people I guess. In many cases religious scripture is poor at explaining why something is a sin & in many places things that were once a-ok are now sinful in modern times or visa versa.

 

Repped.

 

It's just a restriction at BYU. And even then, if you have a medical reason for not shaving you're given a 'Beard Card' that gives you a pass. I personally think it's a dumb rule, but in reality it's not really enforced at BYU unless you have a full-on beard/gotee or whatever. No one is going to hassal you over a few days scruff. Well, that's not completely true. The intramural sports office is notorious for not allowing guys to play if they have a couple day's growth. It's those people that really make Mormons look like extremists. I had more than one run in with the intramural officals over my beard when I had shaved the night before the game (about 24 hours previous) because my beard grows pretty fast and think. Such are the haps though...

Additionally, if you hold a leadership position within the church such as the leader of one of the congregations, you're expected (but not necessarily required) to be clean shaven. It kind of depends on the specific position as to how closely this is adhered to though. The Mormon church has a lay clergy and the entire church structure (leadership, teachers, etc.) is made up of members that attend that congregation. The congregations are organized by geographic boundaries. So if I live in a particular place, I'm expected to go to a specific congregation (ward or branch). They do this so everyone can be accounted for and looked after. Hence the sense of community I mentioned in an earlier post. We have what is called home teaching (that the men do) and visiting teaching (that the women do) that's intended to help ensure that everyone within the congregation has someone they can look to for help and assistance (physically and spiritually) in addition to the leadership of the ward. Each person in the congregation (with a partner) is assigned a route that consists of several families (for home teaching) or several women (for visiting teaching) that they're expected to keeps tabs on by visiting or at least communicating with at least once a month to ensure their temporal and spiritual needs are being met. In reality, the percentage of people that get visited isn't always very high, but the program is in place nonetheless.

 

I really don't get the bigotry toward Mormons. I don't agree with many of the beliefs of the Church of the Latter Day Saints, but to deny that they try to life decent lives and to make the world a better place is silly. Why have they been so successful in the Third World? Because they do good works. To make fun of them being "square" strikes me as ridiculous.

BYU is a private university that gets to make its own rules. If you don't like them, you don't have to attend. It's heartening for me to see an institution that lives its values. It's a damn sight better than my baptized religion (Catholicism) has done. They've allowed child rapists to walk away Scot-free.