I wonder what debate Melo is talking about...And for someone that's seen both on my team I'm surprised I haven't been asked.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 5 2006, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hmm? They can still run with out a big man. He has two freakishly athletic players to work with here, and 1 superstar, and one borderline all star. Vince C, and RJ are both quick and more athletic then anyone on the Suns besides Shawn Marion last year. Raja Bell doesnt score inside points on the break though. No one else besides Shawn really runs the break on the Suns to tell you the truth. The rest set up behind the 3 point line, except Boris; who excells in iso situations. We're not talking about the past, we're talking about the better player now..</div>OMG YES I KNOW WE ARE TALKING THE HERE AND NOW! But I was using examples of what kidd did with a similar offense Nash has now. Because of the offense Kidd is in right now, it is hard for him to excel while Nash is in an offense built for him with players around him that were signed to excel in that offense. Carter does iso's, as does RJ. Not much for Kidd to do most of the time but sit and watch. That is why his defense is so important and why defense wins championships, he can totally shutdown players like Nash and Billups. If Nash had half the defensive ability Kidd has the Suns might have made it to the NBA Finals.
Debate where i thought the offense was implemented by Colango*, no idea why i thought it was. I know he was their gm but i remember reading it somewhere.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 6 2006, 01:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>OMG YES I KNOW WE ARE TALKING THE HERE AND NOW! But I was using examples of what kidd did with a similar offense Nash has now. Because of the offense Kidd is in right now, it is hard for him to excel while Nash is in an offense built for him with players around him that were signed to excel in that offense. Carter does iso's, as does RJ. Not much for Kidd to do most of the time but sit and watch. That is why his defense is so important and why defense wins championships, he can totally shutdown players like Nash and Billups. If Nash had half the defensive ability Kidd has the Suns might have made it to the NBA Finals.</div>Good post. Cant disagree with you there :closedeyes:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 5 2006, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The offense with Barbosa running it was more than 75% as good as Nash running it. It all comes down to the coaching. You bet your ass that if Larry Brown was coaching that team and they jacked up as many shots as they do, they'd all be benched, as would Nash for not playing D. I feel Chris Paul would do just as good with that offense, and Kidd would do very well as well (because Kidd isn't much of a scoring threat, his driving wouldn't be as impactful). And if you put Nash into the Nets current offense, he wouldn't do better than Kidd. It goes both ways.</div>The offense still produced with Barbosa out there, your right, but not near as well as when Nash was out there. Barbosa was only running the offense for short stretchs at a time though, as Nash played for 35 or 36 minutes a game. Barbosa only had to run the offense for 13 minutes a game, and those were never in long stretchs, maybe 3 minutes or so at a time. I have my wonders about whether Barbosa could run that offense for a long stretch, and it stay doing good. Just looking at the Clippers series alone makes me wonder, because the offense had a much harder time scoring when Nash was out, compared to when he was in the game. Kidd and Paul while both can score, because of the lack of 3 point shooting with both i don't believe they would make this offense as effective as Nash does when he runs it. That's the key thing with this offense, in the half court. It is designed around someone that can shoot the three, drive, and see all area's of the court while moving. It's not just the run and gun style, it's half court offense is as good as everyone elses. Now, you can say that this offense helps to show off Nash's ability, but it's not the offense that makes Nash good. What makes Nash good, and the point guard i would want, is his decision making, three point shooting, and his ability to play up tempo in the full court and ability to play half court offense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jul 6 2006, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The offense still produced with Barbosa out there, your right, but not near as well as when Nash was out there. Barbosa was only running the offense for short stretchs at a time though, as Nash played for 35 or 36 minutes a game. Barbosa only had to run the offense for 13 minutes a game, and those were never in long stretchs, maybe 3 minutes or so at a time. I have my wonders about whether Barbosa could run that offense for a long stretch, and it stay doing good. Just looking at the Clippers series alone makes me wonder, because the offense had a much harder time scoring when Nash was out, compared to when he was in the game. Kidd and Paul while both can score, because of the lack of 3 point shooting with both i don't believe they would make this offense as effective as Nash does when he runs it. That's the key thing with this offense, in the half court. It is designed around someone that can shoot the three, drive, and see all area's of the court while moving. It's not just the run and gun style, it's half court offense is as good as everyone elses. Now, you can say that this offense helps to show off Nash's ability, but it's not the offense that makes Nash good. What makes Nash good, and the point guard i would want, is his decision making, three point shooting, and his ability to play up tempo in the full court and ability to play half court offense.</div>Very good points all over this post, and neither of us will really know who could run that offense to perfection. All I know is Kidd is more versatile offensively. Take away some of those 3 point shooters an no way is Nash gonna get those EASY layups where he only has one defender in front of him. Kidd proved he could do up tempo, and also slowed down with or without all star players.And if I were to take one, I'd take Kidd. Better defender, just as good of a passer and playmaker, better rebounder, better leader, and while can't score as well, can still put up points if you need him to.
Jason Kidd doesnt have back to back MVP wins in a row but he is a solid PG and to me he is the best PG in the NBA. I think he shows great leadership on and off the court and he is a very respected player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 30 2006, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nash isnt as bad as D as Kidd is on offense. Also Nash lets the game come to him, thats why players around him vastly improve. Jason Kidd forces it, and takes a lot of very bad shots. Nash also wins, no matter who is around him of late. Late Prime or not id take him. Jason Kidd is a stat filler, but i dont see anyone picking KG over Duncan.</div>Jkidd does the dirty work that you cant even see on paper.. I would pick KG over duncan..lol i have boring old timmyand Kidd isnt terrible on offense... maybe at shooting, but he can dribble, pass, get offensive rebounds and drive... those all have to do with offensive end where really kidd can do things Nash cant do (rebound) and Nash can do things Kidd cant (shoot in a high percentage) Kidd gets out on the break better than anyone, and also has a no look pass that only Magic could do... remember those eyes on the back of his head? they are still there, he just doesnt use them like he use toi would take Kidd simple as that :dribble:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MS2 @ Jul 6 2006, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jason Kidd doesnt have back to back MVP wins in a row but he is a solid PG and to me he is the best PG in the NBA. I think he shows great leadership on and off the court and he is a very respected player.</div>He was screwed out of at LEAST 1 MVP. He should have won it hands down in 2001-2002.
You cant user the MVP as an excuse. Nash had easy competition. The star players last years' teams didnt do well enough for them to win MVP. So he was basically up against Dirk really, and that is not too hard to beat. J Kidd had to compete against MJ, Shaq, AI, KG, TD and other great players over the year. If Nash had to do that, no way he could win MVP.Also, MVP's today dont tell who is the best player in basketball anymore, so dont use that as justification.Also, the way the Suns offense is set up, the pg thrives because everything is run through him. You could use a pun and say that he is the Sun of that team, because everything revolves around him. Jason Kidd could come in and do the same thing and win MVP, with playing good defense as well.
^Agree with most of that, except one thing: Nash had stiff competition this past season, and he didn't deserve his trophy at all (Kobe and Bron put up historical numbers, and Bron's team only had 3 less wins and far less talented team).
If Kobe and Lebron had the 3rd seed, or did as well of Nash, they would have won, no contest. You usually dont win MVP if your team is not close to the top of your conference.
Cavs played in same division as the Pistons. I could see how you could say that about Kobe, but the Cavs had to play in the best team in the league's division. If they were in Atlnatic division, they would have been in 3rd seed (had better record than Nets).
Yeah, I agree. He didnt deserve it over lebron, but the player on the better team usually wins..and plus, anylists were getting stiffys over the way Nash turned the team around when everyone thought they wouldnt even make the playoffs. That kinda stuff turns the judges decisions these days. It doesnt mean that he is better then Lebron James though..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 9 2006, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I agree. He didnt deserve it over lebron, but the player on the better team usually wins..and plus, anylists were getting stiffys over the way Nash turned the team around when everyone thought they wouldnt even make the playoffs. That kinda stuff turns the judges decisions these days. It doesnt mean that he is better then Lebron James though..</div>or even kobe for that matter
Kobe wouldnt be able to win it with the 7th seed though. You have to be on a great team to win MVP. The average team wins for an MVP is 60. Lakers got how many?
<div align="center">May I Present to you the best PG from the 90's/00's era to this day.Yeah, there is no question who the best one is.</div>
